Should Ireland rejoin the Commonwealth

Time Magazine

SeanW wrote:

As an EU member Ireland does not have the power to make FTAs.

I agree the EU ftw, and I've said already in the thread, but I addressing cailín_dunn's patently ridiculous opinions on history's impact on current economics.

Fratton Fred

SeanW wrote:

As an EU member Ireland does not have the power to make FTAs.

So the question for the pro-Commonwealth people remains - what's the point of this sickening display of Anglophilia? Where's the benefit?

I should point out that I have nothing against the British. In fact I think it's good that we're now friends with them, that we don't see each other as sub-human anymore etc. I believe it's only right and proper that the past should be left in the past. I just don't like all this homage that's paid to the Empire (like the Canadians printing the Queen's mug on their money and Australia, NZ and other countries having the Regent as their head of state, mini UK flags on their etc). The Commonwealth is just another type of that, nothing more.

And BTW Eamon O'Cuiv is a muppet.

You have to remember that Britain is part of Australia, Canada and New Zealand's heritage, it is their past.

If there were no Britain, there would still be an Ireland (Although it could well be four kingdoms) but there may not be an Australia etc. as we know it today, which may be why they still reflect that in their currency, flags etc.

Fratton Fred

cailin_donn wrote:

Well what did we do then? They discriminated against us, they stopped Irish children having an education, kicked the Irish off of the land that was rightfully theirs and are the reasons for all the wars in this country. They executed numerous innocents and violently beat up bystanders. The thought that we were beneath them, that because we were Irish we were little better than dirt. The were ****ty rulers too, during the Famine, people were dying of starvation, they were weak but the British wouldn't give them any money unless they built pointless walls. Even when the price of food went up the British kept them on a low wage. If the Famine had been in England everything would have been done to help the people.

Discrimination of Irish people only stopped very recently, think of the North and how the Protestant Englsh/Scottish made Irish live in other parts of town, made them have the worse jobs, re-drew the electoral boudries to ensure a Unionist majority. And in England itself, there were signs in pubs sayin "No blacks, No Irish" and "Irish need not apply".

Should we have sat down and taken all this bull****?? They had us on our knees and we rose again. You say what right do we have to bring a nation to its knees? What right did they have to discriminate, murder and undermine us? To go back to the Commonwealth would be an insult to all the people who fighted for a Republic.

And, thanks, SeanW for agreeing with me:D

And ArthurF: We want the North, obviously. But to go back on our principals to get it, thats another thing. If we re-join the Commonwealth we'll be like a sorry dog crawling back to it's master. England will see it as a victory, that they've won because we came back to them. We'll get the North eventually, without having to join the Commonwealth.

You've wrapped up a load of history in one post there and seemed to have got completely the wrong impression of England and English people. There is a lot of **** that has gone on in the past, but don't let that cloud your opinion of England. By all means hate the policies of the government, but don't hold that against the English people.

You quote the "No Irish" signs, these were quite common in boarding houses and pubs in the sixties and seventies and were more a resentment of immigration than the Irish themselves. At a time when there was no minimum wage, there were tens of thousands of Irish workers coming over and they were willing to work for less than the locals, add the fact that every now and then these same immigrants (Because in England the Irish are the Irish, there is no distinction between those from Belfast and those from Cork) would blow up a pub, shopping centre or a train station and you are bound to get a certain amount of resentment. Imagine if a Polish immigrant bombed a nightclub in Athlone, what would the public reaction be?

OK, we didn't give you any points in the eurovision song contest, but can you blame us?:D

The Corinthian

SeanW wrote:

I just don't like all this homage that's paid to the Empire (like the Canadians printing the Queen's mug on their money and Australia, NZ and other countries having the Regent as their head of state, mini UK flags on their etc). The Commonwealth is just another type of that, nothing more.

Well not exactly. The Commonwealth does have it's origins in the British empire, but the reason countries like Canada and Australia have the British queen's (I notice everyone else seems to be simply calling her the queen, btw) head on their currency is historical. After the American revolution, the British learned their lesson with most of their colonies and so places like Canada and Australia were able to get independence in a far more measured and amicable a fashion. Additionally, countries like Australia and New Zealand look to Europe and Britain to maintain a connection with their European roots, given their geographical location.

As for the Commonwealth, very few have the British queen as their head of state or on their currency. Most are republics and one, Mozambique, was a Portuguese colony and never part of the British empire.

Of course, all this is not a reason to join - just that it's not a reason not to join.

The Corinthian

Ibid wrote:

In my sitting room there are IRA medals my grandfather earned for his role in securing freedom.

My grandfather got lots of medals for being a Fascist. Hold on while I put on a black shirt...

...on the other hand you could just grow up and think for yourself.

Zambia

Not a bad post ArthurF ...

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote:

My grandfather got lots of medals for being a Fascist. Hold on while I put on a black shirt...

...on the other hand you could just grow up and think for yourself.

Well following in your grandfathers steps seems good enough for you

( sorry could not resist)

Time Magazine

The Corinthian wrote:

...on the other hand you could just grow up and think for yourself.

Read my post in future like a good man.

oscarBravo

Put down the handbags and back away slowly - good lads.

The Corinthian

Ibid wrote:

Read my post in future like a good man.

Of course I read it. Funniest thing I've read in ages

hullaballoo

The Corinthian wrote:

Of course I read it. Funniest thing I've read in ages

Funny because you missed the point, or conventional funny?

oscarBravo wrote:

Do you have a factual basis for this assertion?

I ask because the Penal Laws (to take an example) were as severe on English Catholics as they were on Irish. The reason there was little government intervention in the Famine was because of the laissez-faire economic policy, which was not a concept applied uniquely to Ireland.

In fact, there's some evidence to suggest that English Catholics and English dissenters (the "Old English") suffered the wrath of the penal laws to a greater extent than the Irish Catholics.

Evidently, this was partly to do with the sentiment that the English dissenters were more treacherous in going against the Crown.

Time Magazine

Handbags are well and truly down, oB .

The Corinthian wrote:

Of course I read it. Funniest thing I've read in ages

Well then perhaps it might have served you well to consider the apparent lack of logic in your post, because it seems that's the only thing that could have prompted you to mis-represent my post so much.

You claim I should "...just grow up and think for yourself." This implies I am either

1. Entirely devoid of independent thought, or
2. Basing my opinions on those of someone else

I'm assuming you haven't quite stooped to the level of option 1 yet.

I think it's fair to say cailín_donn is bitter about the history of the two nations and how they impacted her family members. I only the other hand stated that:

Ibid wrote:

[he] didn't expect his grandchildren to hold grudges

implying that, perhaps, I'm not basing my opinion on Britain on any particular bitterness that exists within the family.

I then went on to say:

I'd say get over it, but you've nothing to get over. The British rule hurt some ancestry of every family in the country.

Lest you're suggesting I'm a hypocrite, it seems I have no grudges about Britain's treatment of every family in the country.

I then go on to list how it personally affect my family, lest she retorted with "You don't know what you're talking about, you rampant, rabid West-Brit", specifically:

1. My ancestors had 100 acres simply stripped from them by Lord Leitrim MP for the sake of it.
2. My grandfather's friends were shot dead in a field.
3. My grandfather had to flee his home for several months to avoid being taken out and shot by the Black & Tans who were in the nearest town asking for him.
4. My grandmother on my other side had a gun pointed at her by British forces.

And finish this with suitably frank rhetoric on why I see no reason why these events should alter Ireland's potential membership of the Commonwealth:

Why should that have any relevance to whether I enter a free-trade agreement with Botswana?

If you have read the thread you will have seen that I previously stated my opinion that joining the Commonwealth is not particularly beneficial in light of our membership of the European Union; a point quite similar to yours.

You quoted my reference to my grandfather and then claimed I should think for myself. In the fine tradition of expressio unius est exclusio alterius, how do you think my grandfather's opinions and actions in 1916-1922 form my opinions on an organisation that had little relevance to Ireland for another fifty years?

The Corinthian

hullaball&#250 wrote:

Funny because you missed the point, or conventional funny?

Funny because I can't imagine it easy for some of the posters here to be typing from an armchair.

limerick_man

Yeah, i dont really see any problem with Ireland joining the commonwealth on some of the grounds i've just read. (only read first 2 pages), But i think it'd be good, as long as we dont need to change anything

Time Magazine

We're already in the EU

BBM77

Dub13 wrote:

With various people today calling for Ireland to rejoin the Commonwealth

Who exactly is calling for this?

robinph

Ballybrickenman wrote:

Who exactly is calling for this?

Post #21

Or did you really think that would not have already have been asked after 7 pages?

cailin_donn

i see i've missed quite a bit! well, here i go

In my sitting room there are IRA medals my grandfather earned for his role in securing freedom. I have freedom, I will vote in four days' time for our parliament. Joining the Commonwealth will not sacrifice this freedom. It will provide me with more freedom by lowering tax burdens if I want to trade with dozens of nations.

My grandfather succeeded in his aim of getting the Tans out. Fortunately he saw what his aim was and didn't expect his grandchildren to hold grudges against a reformed British government. They've apologised ffs. I'd say get over it, but you've nothing to get over. The British rule hurt some ancestry of every family in the country. My ancestors had 100 acres simply stripped from them by Lord Leitrim MP for the sake of it. My grandfather's friends were shot dead in a field. My grandfather had to flee his home for several months to avoid being taken out and shot by the Black & Tans who were in the nearest town asking for him. My grandmother on my other side had a gun pointed at her by British forces.

Why should that have any relevance to whether I enter a free-trade agreement with Botswana?

OK, firstly, joining the Commonwealth would be re-tracing steps. Ireland was the first ever nation to leave the Commonwealth, the first to show real independence. I'm not saying "Never forgive the English, they must be punished" I'm saying that Ireland is a developed country and doesn't need to join a Commonwealth.

Secondly, how do you know I have nothing to get over? For all you know my family may have had tragic deaths at the hands of the British, but unlike you, I'm not going to let the world know. By the way you're talking, your Grandfather lived, and fair juice to him for that, but a lot of people weren't so lucky! If your Grandfather hadn't lived then maybe you'd feel differently. You might feel that re-joining the British Commonwealth, which was part of their struggle, would be betraying their memories, and the memories of so many others.

You've wrapped up a load of history in one post there and seemed to have got completely the wrong impression of England and English people. There is a lot of **** that has gone on in the past, but don't let that cloud your opinion of England. By all means hate the policies of the government, but don't hold that against the English people.

Oh God no!! I don't hate all English people at all! I have family living there, and friends from there. I just don't think re-joining the Commonwealth is the right way to go for Ireland.

OK, we didn't give you any points in the eurovision song contest, but can you blame us?

No, defietly not!!! I wouldn't have given us the points if I could!! lol:D

LordSutch

I hope you now realise cailin_donn, that Britain cant just "Hand over the Six counties" as you previously asked in (Post #116).
I posted #127 to explain the datail specially for you young man ~ hope it helps.

Time Magazine

cailin_donn wrote:

OK, firstly, joining the Commonwealth would be re-tracing steps. Ireland was the first ever nation to leave the Commonwealth, the first to show real independence.

What relevance does this have to anything, though? There are tangible benefits to joining the Commonwealth that did not exist in 1922/1937/1949, such as how the recent onslought globalisation is affecting trade in African nations.

Secondly, how do you know I have nothing to get over? For all you know my family may have had tragic deaths at the hands of the British, but unlike you, I'm not going to let the world know. By the way you're talking, your Grandfather lived, and fair juice to him for that, but a lot of people weren't so lucky! If your Grandfather hadn't lived then maybe you'd feel differently. You might feel that re-joining the British Commonwealth, which was part of their struggle, would be betraying their memories, and the memories of so many others.

First of all, leaving the Commonwealth was not part of the struggle. It was leaving the Empire.

Second of all I listed some things my grandfather did. You have no idea of any other incidents that may have happened or that "I'm not going to let the world know." Third of all, the Commonwealth does not equal Britain. Nothing has ever been done to you or to any of your family members by the Commonwealth, so no, there is absolutely nothing to "forgive".

Lastly, my substantive point was that whether or not your family members have been murdered by British forces has no relevance to whether we foster trade ties with other nations. Ireland as recently as the 1970s brought the United Kingdom to court over human rights offences, and perhaps then there could have been a case for a trade war (although membership of the EU kind of outweighed this). Nonetheless, even that was 35 years ago at this stage and things have moved on. Britain are our single biggest trading partner, why not extend it to their friends?

History has no relevance here.

I just don't think re-joining the Commonwealth is the right way to go for Ireland.

Relying on historical arguments alone, why?

Flex

Ibid wrote:

What relevance does this have to anything, though? There are tangible benefits to joining the Commonwealth that did not exist in 1922/1937/1949, such as how the recent onslought globalisation is affecting trade in African nations.

First of all, leaving the Commonwealth was not part of the struggle. It was leaving the Empire.

Second of all I listed some things my grandfather did. You have no idea of any other incidents that may have happened or that "I'm not going to let the world know." Third of all, the Commonwealth does not equal Britain. Nothing has ever been done to you or to any of your family members by the Commonwealth, so no, there is absolutely nothing to "forgive".

Lastly, my substantive point was that whether or not your family members have been murdered by British forces has no relevance to whether we foster trade ties with other nations. Ireland as recently as the 1970s brought the United Kingdom to court over human rights offences, and perhaps then there could have been a case for a trade war (although membership of the EU kind of outweighed this). Nonetheless, even that was 35 years ago at this stage and things have moved on. Britain are our single biggest trading partner, why not extend it to their friends?

History has no relevance here.

Relying on historical arguments alone, why?

History is relevant to it for some people, Iv already made my position cclear regards that, so wont repost it. And the USA is our biggest export market now, not Britain. Still dont see any benefits whatsoever to joining the Commonwealth, Britain is a part of the EU so we have free trade agreements and so on with it through that, and the USA isnt a part of it so it wouldnt benefit us in anyway regards enlarging or largest export market either unless people think we're gonna witness a massive shift in Ireland's trading patterns from the EU and USA to Africa and Australia?

As others have stated, the Commonwealth is just the last lingering remnant of the British Empire that Britain doesnt want to give up, why bother joining it.

SeanW

The pro-Commonwealth people on here (West Brits?) have yet to identify any explicit benefit to Ireland in joining this archaic fossil, except the chance to engage in a revolting display of Anglophilia.

Flex

SeanW wrote:

The pro-Commonwealth people on here (West Brits?) have yet to identify any explicit benefit to Ireland in joining this archaic fossil, except the chance to engage in a revolting display of Anglophilia.

Maybe they feel that its imporant to further develop trade ties with our near neighbours in New Zealand and Australia or benefit from trading with the robust economies of Mozambique, Nambia or some other Commonwealth nations, for example, since, lets be honest here, the EU and USA are such dead end and unprosperous trade markets?

mike65

SeanW did'nt you post that comment before?

Mike.

cailin_donn

I hope you now realise cailin_donn, that Britain cant just "Hand over the Six counties" as you previously asked in (Post #116).
I posted #127 to explain the datail specially for you young man ~ hope it helps

ya, thanks Arthur but im a girl lol

First of all, leaving the Commonwealth was not part of the struggle. It was leaving the Empire.

And the Commonwealth is the last scrap of the faded Empire the British are trying to hold on to, would we give them the satisfaction of re-joining? I think not.

Third of all, the Commonwealth does not equal Britain. Nothing has ever been done to you or to any of your family members by the Commonwealth, so no, there is absolutely nothing to "forgive".

Well Britain are the centre of the Commonwealth. And it is the BRITISH Commonwealth, so I'd say it pretty much equals it. No, members of the Commonwealth have done nothing but the same Parliment, Royal family and country. So I'm going to associate the Commonwealth with Britain.

Lastly, my substantive point was that whether or not your family members have been murdered by British forces has no relevance to whether we foster trade ties with other nations. Ireland as recently as the 1970s brought the United Kingdom to court over human rights offences, and perhaps then there could have been a case for a trade war (although membership of the EU kind of outweighed this). Nonetheless, even that was 35 years ago at this stage and things have moved on. Britain are our single biggest trading partner, why not extend it to their friends?

Lets put it this way: If you dont like someone, but like one of their friends, do you have to be friends with the person you dont like in order to be friends with the person you do? No. So we dont have to be part of the Commonwealth to trade with Britains "friends".

History has no relevance here.

History is very, very relevant. Even in todays politics. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have very similar policies, but wont join together because of what? HISTORY, thats what.

Relying on historical arguments alone, why?

Relying on historical arguments alone: Ireland was the first to leave (as I've already said). Does a baby start to walk and then go back to crawling again? Where would we all be if that was the case? Well Ireland has started taking its steps, and going backwards would be a big mistake.

The pro-Commonwealth people on here (West Brits?) have yet to identify any explicit benefit to Ireland in joining this archaic fossil, except the chance to engage in a revolting display of Anglophilia.

I totally agree. I've given my reasons on why I'm anti-Commonwealth, why are ye pro-commonwealth?

And this arguement is nearly pointless anyway, it's never going to happen. Éamonn Ó Cuiv is a fool, if people wanted to re-join then he'd be in Government, but as you can see: he's not. So its obviously not what the majority of people want.

cailin_donn

I hope you now realise cailin_donn, that Britain cant just "Hand over the Six counties" as you previously asked in (Post #116).
I posted #127 to explain the datail specially for you young man ~ hope it helps

ya, thanks Arthur but im a girl lol

First of all, leaving the Commonwealth was not part of the struggle. It was leaving the Empire.

And the Commonwealth is the last scrap of the faded Empire the British are trying to hold on to, would we give them the satisfaction of re-joining? I think not.

Third of all, the Commonwealth does not equal Britain. Nothing has ever been done to you or to any of your family members by the Commonwealth, so no, there is absolutely nothing to "forgive".

Well Britain are the centre of the Commonwealth. And it is the BRITISH Commonwealth, so I'd say it pretty much equals it. No, members of the Commonwealth have done nothing but the same Parliment, Royal family and country. So I'm going to associate the Commonwealth with Britain.

Lastly, my substantive point was that whether or not your family members have been murdered by British forces has no relevance to whether we foster trade ties with other nations. Ireland as recently as the 1970s brought the United Kingdom to court over human rights offences, and perhaps then there could have been a case for a trade war (although membership of the EU kind of outweighed this). Nonetheless, even that was 35 years ago at this stage and things have moved on. Britain are our single biggest trading partner, why not extend it to their friends?

Lets put it this way: If you dont like someone, but like one of their friends, do you have to be friends with the person you dont like in order to be friends with the person you do? No. So we dont have to be part of the Commonwealth to trade with Britains "friends".

History has no relevance here.

History is very, very relevant. Even in todays politics. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have very similar policies, but wont join together because of what? HISTORY, thats what.

Relying on historical arguments alone, why?

Relying on historical arguments alone: Ireland was the first to leave (as I've already said). Does a baby start to walk and then go back to crawling again? Where would we all be if that was the case? Well Ireland has started taking its steps, and going backwards would be a big mistake.

The pro-Commonwealth people on here (West Brits?) have yet to identify any explicit benefit to Ireland in joining this archaic fossil, except the chance to engage in a revolting display of Anglophilia.

I totally agree. I've given my reasons on why I'm anti-Commonwealth, why are ye pro-commonwealth?

And this arguement is nearly pointless anyway, it's never going to happen. Éamonn Ó Cuiv is a fool, if people wanted to re-join then he'd be in Government, but as you can see: he's not. So its obviously not what the majority of people want.

LordSutch

I dunno how old you are Colon_dunno but when you are older & travelled the world and been in commonwealth Countries (or even just Britain) & when you have met & made friends with commonwealth people from around the World then you will see things in a different light, and you will look back on these narrow minded postings of yours and think "what was I thinking" I dont hate Canadians, I think Aussies are OK, so too are the Welsh, and you might even end up with a protestant boyfriend from Northern Ireland

Fratton Fred

cailin_donn wrote:

And the Commonwealth is the last scrap of the faded Empire the British are trying to hold on to, would we give them the satisfaction of re-joining? I think not.



Well Britain are the centre of the Commonwealth. And it is the BRITISH Commonwealth, so I'd say it pretty much equals it. No, members of the Commonwealth have done nothing but the same Parliment, Royal family and country. So I'm going to associate the Commonwealth with Britain.

read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations then you will understand it a bit better.

I'm not trying to change your view, just thought you might want to get your facts straight about it.

cailin_donn

I dunno how old you are Colon_dunno but when you are older & travelled the world and been in commonwealth Countries (or even just Britain) & when you have met & made friends with commonwealth people from around the World then you will see things in a different light, and you will look back on these narrow minded postings of yours and think "what was I thinking" I dont hate Canadians, I think Aussies are OK, so too are the Welsh, and you might even end up with a protestant boyfriend from Northern Ireland

Havent you read one of my previous posts? plz read the previous posts before you post, then you wont post pointless stuff. This is what I've already said:

Oh God no!! I don't hate all English people at all! I have family living there, and friends from there. I just don't think re-joining the Commonwealth is the right way to go for Ireland.

And thanks for the link Fratton Fred.

And can any pro-commonwealth people actually gve their reasons? or do they even have any?!

Fratton Fred

cailin_donn wrote:

Havent you read one of my previous posts? plz read the previous posts before you post, then you wont post pointless stuff. This is what I've already said:



And thanks for the link Fratton Fred.

And can any pro-commonwealth people actually gve their reasons? or do they even have any?!

my twopenneth, fwiw, is that to call it the vestiges of the empire, is a bit of an insult to the nations that are members.

It is a "Club" or an organisation that past members of the British Empire can join, but has members from non empire countries and also non empire countries are trying to join.

South Africa got kicked out because of apartheid, but Nelson Mandela could not wait to rejoin. Fiji left, but soon rejoined, so there must be some benefits to it.

from what I can see, it is a way of countries, who have undeniable links with each other, uniting to help each other out. Like it or not, Ireland has probably closer ties to Britain still, and probably enjoys more benefits from that relationship, than most commonwealth countries do, however joining would be political suicide for any politician promoting membership, so it won't happen for years to come, if at all.