Should Ireland rejoin the Commonwealth

Fratton Fred

CerebralCortex wrote:

How does that point justify Ireland swearing allegiance to Britain exactly?
Besides whats wrong with the EU?

who said anything about swearing allegiance to Britain?

who said anything is wrong with the EU?

Zambia

guinnessdrinker wrote:

Zambia, I think there is a little bit of confusion. The Republic voted in referedum on Nineteenth Amendment, this was to ammend articles 2 and 3 which was overwhelmingly passed. It was a requirement for the Good Friday Agreement. However voters did not vote for the Good Friday Agreement itself.

True the good firday agreement as a whole was not really put to the Republic but in all essence the parts that affected the south where put to the people as it required a change in the constitution.

So IMO the south really voted for the GFA by passing the pionts that affected it.

As in the provision
The abolition of the Republic's territorial claim to Northern Ireland via the modification Articles 2 and 3 of its constitution.

Oh and i dont see how being part of the Commonwealth is Pledging allegiance to Britain

Queen Elizabeth II is the Head of the Commonwealth, recognized by each state, and as such is the symbol of the free association of the organisation's members. This position, however, does not imply political power over Commonwealth member states. In practice, the Queen heads the Commonwealth in a symbolic capacity, and it is the Commonwealth Secretary-General who is the chief executive of the organisation.

LordSutch

So what if the Queen is head of the Commonwealth? whats wrong with that?

blorg

The Queen is head of state of the UK, and head of the Commonwealth. They are two seperate positions.

Zambia

ArthurF wrote:

So what if the Queen is head of the Commonwealth? whats wrong with that?

Nothing, just pointing out she is the symbolic head of the commonwealth. Hence there is no pledge of allegiance to Britain.

Gobán Saor

Fratton Fred wrote:

or maybe they didn't want more children blown to bits while trying to do their Chritmas shopping :rolleyes:

While we could trade atrocity stories and whataboutery all night, and to little effect, I will simply point out that over the last 100 years or so, vastly more children have been blown to bits by British bombs than by Irish bombs.

Fratton Fred wrote:

You've obviously neverbeen to Finchley

No, but it was Thatcher's constituency so I presume she knew what it was like and had some attachment to it.

A Dub in Glasgo

ArthurF wrote:

So what if the Queen is head of the Commonwealth? whats wrong with that?

Quite a bit wrong if you do not believe in that subservient ****e

Nothing wrong if you do believe in that subservient ****e

Time Magazine

Subservient... you mean a bit like the European Monetary Union?

A Dub in Glasgo

No, I mean to a monarchy

Time Magazine

So your problem, as we're not in said monarchy, is not with our subservience, but others'?

SeanW

Zambia232 wrote:

Nothing, just pointing out she is the symbolic head of the commonwealth. Hence there is no pledge of allegiance to Britain.

(Rhetorical question) But what qualifies one to be the "symbolic head of the commonwealth?"

Jimoslimos

Ibid wrote:

Subservient... you mean a bit like the European Monetary Union?

Why do some people (especially the British) see lack of control over monetary policy as some sort of slur on their nationhood? As far as I can see the only true currency is oil so therefore that would make us all subservient to OPEC

Rock Climber

Well not the green among us who cycle to work and have solar panels for heating

As for the topic,I don't see it happening.
The Queen will visit soon enough though and she will probably get a good reception like all the hugs Charles got on grafton st a few years ago when he first visited.

Time Magazine

Jimoslimos wrote:

Why do some people (especially the British) see lack of control over monetary policy as some sort of slur on their nationhood?

I don't know, but I don't know why people are arguing against us joining the Commonwealth on account of the Tans, either.

As far as I can see the only true currency is oil so therefore that would make us all subservient to OPEC

Oil price fluctuations can be counteracted by interest rates. There are strong arguments for Britain staying outside the EMU for this reason.

SeanW

Ibid wrote:

I don't know, but I don't know why people are arguing against us joining the Commonwealth on account of the Tans, either.

And I don't know why people here are arguing for us joining the Commonwealth other than an opportunity to engage in a revolting display of Anglophilia. That seems to be the only reason I can think of, and the only credible reaosn that's been posted on this thread to date. I am also specifically contending that the people promoting Ireland in the Commonwealth are West Brits.

Time Magazine

SeanW wrote:

And I don't know why people here are arguing for us joining the Commonwealth other than an opportunity to engage in a revolting display of Anglophilia.

It could extend the hand of friendship to our Unionist friends up North, if we were seeking a United Ireland. It would also help us foster a community spirit in our development exploits. See what I did there? Now I'm not arguing that it's worth it, but rather that some stupid nationalist history has no relevance.

I am also specifically contending that the people promoting Ireland in the Commonwealth are West Brits.

Precisely what do you mean by 'West Brit' and why such negative connotations? Why can you not see past the token leader being a token monarch who's used as a tourist attraction, for the agreement with developing nations?

Húrin

Commonwealth? ARe ya ****ing mad?

Dub13

H&#250 wrote: »

Commonwealth? ARe ya ****ing mad?

Is that all you are going to contribute to this thread...?

murphaph

H&#250 wrote: »

Commonwealth? ARe ya ****ing mad?

Yes, quite.

Anyway, the commonwealth. Must be a fairly simple question;

Would joing provide any tangible benefit?
Would joing provide any intangible benefit?
Would joing provide any tangible disbenefit?
Would joing provide any intangible disbenefit?

It's easier to start at the top IMO. Would there be any increase in trade with those nations of the commonwealth? I think there probably wouldn't be huge benefits tbh.

Probably no disbenefits either so the status quo is probably the most sensible. I see no reason to include northernern unionists in this debate as they are already members.

Zambia

murphaph wrote:

I see no reason to include northernern unionists in this debate as they are already members.

I'm in the North and I see no benefit whatsoever to being in the commonwealth.

There are no residency rights conveyed
There are no beneficial trade agreements which would not have been secured anyway.
They dont use the pound ?? (a lot of the UK wont even take northern ireland cash and we are in the union)

Its an old club used for old purposes

cailin_donn

hi everyone sorry for like. dissapearing! stupid exams..... SOOOOO.... back to the point:

So what if the Queen is head of the Commonwealth? whats wrong with that?

For us, a hundred-and-one things. She's the queen of england!!! we are not england or any part of the UK whatsoever and therefore shouldn't join something with the queen at its head.

Commonwealth? ARe ya ****ing mad?

What I feel, exactly.:D

WEST BRIT: It’s a term that’s so deeply entrenched in the centuries of Irish attitudes to Britain that it almost requires a book to sort out its subtleties for somebody who doesn’t know the historical background.

In the Republic of Ireland today, it’s definitely derogatory. In its least insulting sense it refers to an Irish person who has sympathies for the UK or who takes his cultural and social cues from Britain. If you were being polite, you might instead call such a person an Anglophile. The term is applied in particular to Protestant Dubliners who have liberal attitudes to moral issues.

The term West Briton evolved in meaning in the period of the partition struggles of the early twentieth century that led to the creation of the Irish Republic. A West Briton then was a person who favoured the retention of a close association with Great Britain and was against the establishment of the Republic. You can get a flavour from James Joyce’s Dubliners, published in 1914: “Perhaps he ought not to have answered her like that. But she had no right to call him a West Briton before people, even in joke”. West Briton remains a favourite insult of members of the Republican movement, who sometimes use it for somebody who is seen as retaining a subservient attitude to the UK.

There you go, Ibid, feel better now lmao


Oh by the way, has anyone else noticed that the most cultural part of countries is that firthest from England? West of Ireland, South-West Wales and Northern Scotland. I'm not saying that if you don't live in these places that you're not cultural... just an observation.

Fratton Fred

cailin_donn wrote:

Oh by the way, has anyone else noticed that the most cultural part of countries is that firthest from England? West of Ireland, South-West Wales and Northern Scotland. I'm not saying that if you don't live in these places that you're not cultural... just an observation.

that has really made my day

Time Magazine

cailin_donn wrote:

hi everyone sorry for like. dissapearing! stupid exams..... SOOOOO.... back to the point:

Lemme guess, Junior Cert?

For us, a hundred-and-one things. She's the queen of england!!! we are not england or any part of the UK whatsoever and therefore shouldn't join something with the queen at its head.

No, you're making an illogical step there. We are in the World Trade Organisation, which is headed by a Frenchman but we don't have a problem with that. We are in the United Nations, which is headed by a Korean, but we don't have a problem with that. Whatever about France and our relations within the EU (which is applicable to Britain as well), we're certainly "not Korea or any part of Korea whatsoever" so should we pull out of the UN too?

What difference does the fact that it's the Queen of Britain make? Would you object to us joining OPEC (oh bless the day!) if it was led by the King of Jordan?

Oh by the way, has anyone else noticed that the most cultural part of countries is that firthest from England? West of Ireland

I'd argue that the most cultural part of this country is the Pale, without any doubt.

WEST BRIT: It’s a term that’s so deeply entrenched in the centuries of Irish attitudes to Britain that it almost requires a book to sort out its subtleties for somebody who doesn’t know the historical background.

You see this exactly my point: your logic is entrenched in history, not the future.

In the Republic of Ireland today, it’s definitely derogatory.

So should I consider that personal abuse?

In its least insulting sense it refers to an Irish person who has sympathies for the UK or who takes his cultural and social cues from Britain.

The Commonwealth is not the same as the UK. Does an appreciation of Shakespeare make one a West Brit, if its definition includes one who takes his cultural cues from there? In the instance, would this make a British fan of Derek Mahon a Paddy?

If you were being polite, you might instead call such a person an Anglophile. The term is applied in particular to Protestant Dubliners who have liberal attitudes to moral issues.

I'm a fairly conservative Catholic from Kildare. Go figure.

A West Briton then was a person who favoured the retention of a close association with Great Britain and was against the establishment of the Republic.

We should of course keep our close association with Britain. They're a hell of a trading partner. Are you against the Anglo-Irish Agreement, cailin_donn? I see no contradiction by my point on this and my allegiance to the Republic. Can you point one out?

West Briton remains a favourite insult of members of the Republican movement

I've noticed.

who sometimes use it for somebody who is seen as retaining a subservient attitude to the UK.

We're having a debate about entering the Commonwealth, which we left freely. We're not subservient to the UK, nor would we be. Why can people not distinguish between Britain and the Commonwealth? We're subservient to the EU but that's in our interest and not to any great detriment, are you calling for us to up and leave that, too?

Cailin_donn, you've yet to answer any of my points substantively. Believe it or not, I'm aware that we're not part of Britain, nor do I want to be. So "because it's led [albeit titularly] by the Queen and we're not Britain" doesn't really answer my question as to why we shouldn't join.

If you fail to answer my questions in your next reply, frankly, I give up.

murphaph

Anyone who uses subservience as an excuse for not joining the commonwealth is fibbing. We're much more subservient to the EU than any member of the commonwealth is to it.

Liam Byrne

I was with you all the way, Ibid, until you said the following:

Ibid wrote:

I'd argue that the most cultural part of this country is the Pale, without any doubt.

There are loads of examples that I could cite, but just as one example, how many mainstream radio stations within the Pale play traditional Irish music ?

I'm not having a go at the Pale here, since the same pretty much applies to any of our cities, but just showing it as an example.

I personally think that whatever "culture" the Pale might have (and to be honest, as an outsider, it's a mystery to me, unless it involves ignoring the entire country and chasing some sort of UK/US clone as a Holy Grail) is completely different from the rest of the country.

Time Magazine

Liam Byrne wrote:

There are loads of examples that I could cite, but just as one example, how many mainstream radio stations within the Pale play traditional Irish music ?

That's not the only thing I consider culture. Yeah a céilí is great craic, but I think the National Gallery is more poignant to our culture, what generations will remember about our cultural existence.

I personally think that whatever "culture" the Pale might have (and to be honest, as an outsider, it's a mystery to me, unless it involves ignoring the entire country and chasing some sort of UK/US clone as a Holy Grail) is completely different from the rest of the country.

I don't think so. The IFI, The Abbey, Kilmainham Jail, Temple Bar in its entirety (with the possible exception of Pal Joey's )... all more "cultural" I think than an ole dance. And distinct from anything British. Sure it's hard to distinguish a low-budget Irish movie from an English equivalent, but it's still part of our distinct cultural life and in no way distinctly "British".

When people think "culture" why do they think the Siege of Limerick moreso than The Playboy of the Western World?

murphaph

I don't think any part of Ireland is more cultural than anywhere else. The pale may be more cultured (a generalisation of course, there are cultured people everywhere).

CerebralCortex

Ibid wrote:

That's not the only thing I consider culture. Yeah a céilí is great craic, but I think the National Gallery is more poignant to our culture, what generations will remember about our cultural existence.

I don't think so. The IFI, The Abbey, Kilmainham Jail, Temple Bar in its entirety (with the possible exception of Pal Joey's )... all more "cultural" I think than an ole dance. And distinct from anything British. Sure it's hard to distinguish a low-budget Irish movie from an English equivalent, but it's still part of our distinct cultural life and in no way distinctly "British".

When people think "culture" why do they think the Siege of Limerick moreso than The Playboy of the Western World?

Cause they don't understand what it means. Trad music is a small and imho a regrettable part of our heritage not our culture.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054862157&page=23

as an example of our culture.

Liam Byrne

Ibid wrote:

That's not the only thing I consider culture.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the only thing I consider culture either; it was just an example.

Another example would be our sporting culture in almost all codes - hurling, football, rugby and soccer. Again, how many local radio stations in Dublin would cover these, or broadcast a full match live ? And while some of the fault lies on the part of the stations, the fact is that if there was a substantial audience, they would cover them. But most of the audience is more interested in the UK's Premiership than local sport and culture - something that a lot of the country also suffers from, but at least in most areas of the country there is a healthy level of interest in both UK sports and Irish sports, as there should be, and there is regularly enough interest to broadcast these live.

Going back to the comments on traditional music, I have to take issue with some of the comments regarding it being "regrettable". I am by no means a trad music fan, but this evening heading home I was listening to Eoin O'Neill on Clare FM and the music for the half-hour or so that I heard was just brilliant!

Like all areas of music, there is some good stuff and some downright rubbish, but the good stuff beats the pants off most of the crap dance and attitude-laden R&B any day; for some reason, though, there is a snobbery that looks down on our own culture and stoops to playing the latest "F**k you" songs which might have a relevance and even political statement to make in a U.S. ghetto but sounds downright pathetic when played at ear-shattering volume from some souped-up (sorry "modded" :rolleyes: ) Civic as the driver passes you by.

Simple off-the-top-of-my-head example: The arrogant, attitude-filled line "I could find another you in a minute, in fact he'll be here in a minute". Since everyone is an individual, there's no way she could "find another you", ever! It's just line after line of arrogance and attitude in most of those "songs", but Irish teenagers seem to lap it up, and mimic the crap "whatever" attitude, while at the same time turning up their noses to anything remotely Irish. And most of the media follows along, thereby demoting anything remotely Irish to second place.

Regarding the "national gallery" - yeah, that's in Dublin, because Dublin is the capital. The Book of Kells is in Trinity College, not in Kells, again because Dublin is the capital. Limerick's Ardagh Chalice is in the National Museum....again in the capital, as you would pretty much expect.

So the location of these is not indicative of the level of culture there, but simply the fact that it is fairly standard practice to have the national museums, etc, located in a country's capital.

Ireland has suffered from looking elsewhere for its interests and influences, and it appears that Dublin is the biggest culprit (but by no means the only culprit) in this regard; there have also been benefits and improvements because of this, but there has definitely been a lot lost along the way.

I can see no benefit in joining the Commonwealth; not as a raving nationalist or as a closet anti-Brit, since any role that it might have had has been surpassed by the EU; I can also appreciate any positive outside influences, but I definitely beg to differ from some observers here when they reckon that the Pale has more culture/is more "cultured" than any other part of the country - there are simply no facts to back that up.

Hotblack Desiato

Liam Byrne wrote:

If, at some stage in the future, the majority there decide to become part of the Republic of Ireland, then it will happen.

No it won't - not unless a majority in the Republic vote for it also - and nobody I know will vote for the admittance of a lawless sectarian economic backwater into our modern, increasingly secular economically successful republic, thank you very much.

And that's ignoring the 49% of disgruntled Unionists and whatever retaliatory action a small minority of them may take. No thanks. I confidently predict it will not happen in this century and that suits me fine.

Liam Byrne wrote:

Another example would be our sporting culture in almost all codes - hurling, football, rugby and soccer. Again, how many local radio stations in Dublin would cover these, or broadcast a full match live ?

How many 'local' radio stations in Ireland have to cover the diverse tastes of 1.5+million people?
Dublin has no local radio as such. It's a great shame that Newstalk went national, it's not 'ours' any more.

But most of the audience is more interested in the UK's Premiership than local sport and culture - something that a lot of the country also suffers from, but at least in most areas of the country there is a healthy level of interest in both UK sports and Irish sports, as there should be, and there is regularly enough interest to broadcast these live.

Yeah because the Dublin GAA team has no following :rolleyes:
It's odd how GAA types are perfectly happy to take the money of legions of Dub supporters but give out left right and centre about the Pale etc. :rolleyes: My local GAA club is thriving thank you very much. Get out of the insular Ban-era attitude that one is
either a "GAA man" or a "soccer man" or a "rugby man".

Oh and if you ever venture to Asia you'll be amazed at the level of interest in the Premiership over there. They don't suffer from some sort of inferiority complex though where they think that watching it makes them somehow traitors.

I am by no means a trad music fan, but this evening heading home I was listening to Eoin O'Neill on Clare FM and the music for the half-hour or so that I heard was just brilliant!

So what. Not having an appetite for English/Scottish/American folk music doesn't make one any less English/Scottish/American.

but Irish teenagers seem to lap it up

:rolleyes: and French, Belgian, Australian, Brazilian teenagers don't?
FFS I don't think there is a country in the world where someone isn't worrying about American 'cultural imperialism'.

I can see no benefit in joining the Commonwealth; not as a raving nationalist or as a closet anti-Brit, since any role that it might have had has been surpassed by the EU; I can also appreciate any positive outside influences

I entirely agree.
We have the good luck to have the finest broadcasting organisation in the world as our next door neighbour.
If you've ever had to suffer German, Belgian, Spanish etc. etc. tv (even disregarding the language barrier) you will truly appreciate the BBC.
It doesn't make me any less Irish or any less proud of our independence to say that some British institutions are the best in the world.