Why are the PD's singled out for criticism all the time?

darkman2

Thanks for all the replies however IMO no-one has hit the real nail on the head yet.


The PD's are bashed IMO by good old Irish begrudgery. I dont see any other reason for it.

28064212

darkman2 wrote:

Thanks for all the replies however IMO no-one has hit the real nail on the head yet.
The PD's are bashed IMO by good old Irish begrudgery. I dont see any other reason for it.

Seriously? They got 4% of the vote at the last general election. They're currently running around 2-3%. Has it occurred to you that maybe people don't like them or their policies? Their current leader is one of the most disliked politicians in the country (and in Ireland, that's saying something). Their previous leader is currently in charge of a third world health service, and the best thing you could say about her three year tenure, if you were feeling particularly generous and agreed with privatising the health service, is that some of her circumstances were difficult

darkman2

28064212 wrote:

Seriously? They got 4% of the vote at the last general election. They're currently running around 2-3%. Has it occurred to you that maybe people don't like them or their policies? Their current leader is one of the most disliked politicians in the country (and in Ireland, that's saying something). Their previous leader is currently in charge of a third world health service, and the best thing you could say about her three year tenure, if you were feeling particularly generous and agreed with privatising the health service, is that some of her circumstances were difficult

Id love to have seen what a Labour or Fine Gael politician would have done with health.

Micheal McDowells policies are good - low tax. Whats your issue with that? Does that not benefit you? Is McDowell corrupt - No - another reason gone for hating him. Like I say - begrudgery - at least be honest about. Alot of Irish people have a genuine hatred of people who succeed and have money.
I think thats the real bottom issue here and tbh those whom keep attacking the PD's might want to be honest with themselves for once.

cast_iron

darkman2 wrote:

Micheal McDowells policies are good - low tax. Whats your issue with that? Does that not benefit you? Is McDowell corrupt - No - another reason gone for hating him. Like I say - begrudgery - at least be honest about. Alot of Irish people have a genuine hatred of people who succeed and have money.
I think thats the real bottom issue here and tbh those whom keep attacking the PD's might want to be honest with themselves for once.

I agree entirely, bar your first sentence. (I'm looking at Scandanavia whilst saying that).

People who get to the position of paying high tax got there for a reason - because they (by and large) deserved it, and worked hard for it. This country isn't quite the tax haven for the rich people like to think.

And people do begrudge that, as they are usually the ones that don't earn that kind of dosh.
Few people outside the rich like to be told the rich should pay less tax, regardless of how they earned it.

But hey, we're a nation of begrudgers, and boards is a great outlet for this type of person - because opinions on here matter very, very little in the grand scale of (political) things. And another fact is that journalists aren't paid a huge sum either, so it's not hard to see how the media head that way either.

gandalf

cast_iron wrote:

What a nonsense.

Thats not nonsense at all, its a fact that the vast majority of Irish voters did not choose the PD's. Show how that is false?

You're dislike for the current administration is obvious, but if we go into the nitty gritty of who did what, the PDs will fair out better than most.

Harney worse than Martin?
McDowell worse than O' Donoghue?

So you are in Government when it suits you and then go on your own when you need to take responsibility, god thats worse than FF.

The basic acid test is are those departments better than when this Government took control. The overwhelming answer is no.

I've had first hand experience of the mess that is our Health Service that I already have gone into in other threads. And thats not even mentioning the extreme wastage and the irrational hard on that Mary has for co-location which can only be explained by the fact she has caught Developers disease from Fianna Fail.

As for Justice Herr Flick seems interested in anything but running the department properly, not even being able to deliver the 14,000 Gardai that were promised 5 years ago.

Now one doesn't excuse the other, but nor does hypothesis of what clone parties (FG) would do either.

No but a change is needed, you had your time batting now its time to head back to the pavilion and take a break because your going to be run out.

This Government have thrown good money after bad and the service is not getting any better, maybe the opposition can bring some economical prudence into the HSE. I would certainly fear for this country if FF and the PD's were allowed to mismanage it for another 5 years.

daveirl

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gandalf

The Greens are running twice the level of support the PD's are nationally and have the testes to be running in all constituencies so at least you have a choice to vote for them or not.

The PD's are only running in 26 of the 44 Constituencies, they are hardly making an effort to represent all the people as a national party now are they :rolleyes:

daveirl

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gandalf

And I was just answering the OP's question as to why "they are singled out for criticism all the time". The fact that 18 Constituencies don't even have the opportunity to pass judgement on the PD's performance in government is quite damning considering they head up two departments that are high on alot of voter priorities for concern.

daveirl

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Shadowless

gandalf wrote:

I would reckon the PD's are "hated" because the majority of the people in this country that vote did not vote for them yet they have had the Government by the balls for the last 10 years.

This sums up my feelings completely.
How can a party with support from only about 3% of the electorate hold so much power in government. It's wrong IMO.

Fallschirmjager

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Isn't strong management a breath of fresh air. Completely disagree with your view that any gov can manage, might be you haven't seen many govs. IMO a lot of people are probably initimidated by PD confidence and determination to get things done. I'm not a PD fan per se but I cannot fail to be impressed by their willingness to take on tough challenges and make the tough decisions. Unfortunately the same attributes are sadly lacking in broader society. Too much hand outs dependent and/or lack get up and go cultures.

i agree with you. i lived thru the late 70's and 80's and remeber nearly 100 people queueing for an Abrakebra job, FFS. anyone who is an old git like me -- remember the emigration joke, the last person to leave turn out the light. i do and for a while it was looking increasingly like a reality. remeber when ministers said it was their duty to educate so that people can emigrate. we educated for other countries. i remember in software offering to work for free to get experience.

it amazes me now when i hire people that were born in the 80's. they have never known unemployment, and i pray to God they never do. think about that..never known what mass unemployment looks like, and the soul destroying effects of it. i remember queueing with a man in his 60's who was in tears trying to explain to the lady (actually, scrub lady and replace with complete bitch) in the unemployment office, that he could not afford to feed his kids...he had written all this in the inside of a cornflakes box...i talked to him outside, he had worked nearly 45 years in the same company and the factory shut. the unemployment office kept asking why he didnt get another job. jesus, that guy was in a desperate state. that was not 1880, that was the 1980's...

every one of my friends, to the last man emigrated...every one of them, nearly all have come back thank god...

so running an economy is easy, when its successful...we have had a long time of success and a lot of people seem to believe its our right and easy to have a successful economy and that is its natural state...it is not...that is when we are very vulnerable IMHO. a sure sign we are becoming fat is the number of public sector workers (enormous!) and this ridiculous 35 hour week thing (even more jobs to fill the gaps)...the one thing we always need to remember as a sobering fact and people do not like to hear it but it is true...the public sector do not create jobs or wealth, it is simply recycled money from the private sector....and our success in all areas flows from our private sector wealth. we would do well to remember that...

gandalf

LOL I'm a child of the 60's (just) but I too remember the 80's and early 90's I still think I have some of the PFO letters I got from job applications back then.

I firmly believe we are heading back in the direction of a recession/downturn here and my problem is with the fact that this government should have been taking action to re mediate this rather than lining the nests of their select "Galway Races" buddies.

The PD's allowed this to happen, they collaborated. Instead of being the lauded Watchdogs that they claimed to be they became a poodle and then in supporting a compromised Taoiseach they became a lapdog.

Fallschirmjager

gandalf wrote:

LOL I'm a child of the 60's (just) but I too remember the 80's and early 90's I still think I have some of the PFO letters I got from job applications back then.

I firmly believe we are heading back in the direction of a recession/downturn here and my problem is with the fact that this government should have been taking action to re mediate this rather than lining the nests of their select "Galway Races" buddies.

The PD's allowed this to happen, they collaborated. Instead of being the lauded Watchdogs that they claimed to be they became a poodle and then in supporting a compromised Taoiseach they became a lapdog.

LOL gandalf, we must have been writing to the same companies !!! i too have the letters, its a different world now. by the way, did u get that job in the IT department in Rowntrees chocolate factory...YOU BASTARD!!! i had planned on eating my own body weight in chocolate to compensate for no wage!!! BAWHAHAHA....

fair point on galway races...i just want a government that stops dicking around in areas they are crap at, and not just in ireland, goverments are crap at pretty much everything other then managing economies...the best governemnt is the one that would create an environment where we can all get up and kick on...all i hear now is how they are all going to solve world hunger....and what they fail to mention is we are the poor schmoos that obviously will pay for it all...

The Rooster

I think there are two reasons why the PDs get singled out for criticism.

1. People dislike the personalities of McDowell and Harney. They're both blunt and straight, and not afraid to do or say the unpopular thing. Irish people tend to prefer the Bertie and Enda method of avoiding direct questions and answering whatever they like.

2. There is a definite left-wing or liberal slant in the media and on forums like this. Bring in something to get tough on criminals and there's a huge backlash about infringing on people's rights. Reduce the tax bill for the hard working PAYE worker, and there's a huge backlash about those who are already out of the tax net or those who are on benefit.

McDowell and Harney, in my opinion, have been the best ministers for justice and health in a good number of years. But as can be seen for this forum, some people will still say they're the worst!!!

But of course people have every right to dislike the PDs. If the people vote in Pat Rabbitte as Minister for Finance, then we'll deserve what we get.

Ardent

The Rooster wrote:

McDowell and Harney, in my opinion, have been the best ministers for justice and health in a good number of years. But as can be seen for this forum, some people will still say they're the worst!!!

You'll need to validate that statement somehow. IMHO, the justice system in this country has been a conveyer belt of disgraces for some time now and our health system is the laughing stock of Europe. Please explain how you think McDowell and Harney are actually doing good jobs??

Floppybits

I think the reason why the PD's are getting all the flak instead of FF is because they said that they would watch over FF and they didn't. This reason I think, is the main reason why they are getting the flak. Another reason is because of the two ministries they hold Health and Justice, these two ministries are probably the ones that affect everyone more than any other especially the health ministry and here I think they got a raw deal from FF as nobody in party wanted to touch health with a barge pole.

The last reason I think they get so much slak is because of Mr Mcdowell. He maybe straight talking but some of the things that he has said in the Dail have proved untrue, things like "its the sting of a dying wasp" in relation to gangland killings and what happens there is practically war going on between the gangs.

Also ask yourself the questions do you feel safe in this country? Do you feel you can walk down the street at any time day or night and feel safe?

The other question is Would you feel safe and confident in the health service? I for one dont and I have to go for an operation later this year and I am dreading it, Im not dreading the operation but I am dreading the fact that I may get MRSA.

These I feel in my humble opinion are the reasons why the PD's are getting all the flak.

Voipjunkie

The Rooster wrote:

2. There is a definite left-wing or liberal slant in the media and on forums like this. Bring in something to get tough on criminals and there's a huge backlash about infringing on people's rights. Reduce the tax bill for the hard working PAYE worker, and there's a huge backlash about those who are already out of the tax net or those who are on benefit.

.

This is absolute twaddle look at Pat Kenny's radio show this morning two Political correspondents and Stephen Byrnes are brought on to analyse the debate last night. Now for those who don't know Stephen Byrnes is a former PD candidate and his company are currently working on the PD campaign. Well it did not come as a surprise that he thought McDowell had won the debate the 2 polcors gave it to Rabitte.
Then followed a party political broadcast for the PDs by Stephen Byrnes as he attacked the Greens, Labour and Sinn Fein for changing policies.

So was there a former Green candidate currently working on the Green campaign NO was there a former Labour candidate who is currently working on the labour campaign NO was there a former Shinner currently working on the SF campaign NO.

For a party that got just over 3% last time out they get a very good hearing on the National media.

RalphCifaretto

For a party that got just over 3% last time out they get a very good hearing on the National media.

And whose support is currently at 2%:rolleyes:

The Rooster

Voipjunkie wrote:

This is absolute twaddle look at Pat Kenny's radio show this morning two Political correspondents and Stephen Byrnes are brought on to analyse the debate last night.

The right get 5 mins on the radio and leftie liberals are up in arms! As always, when the exception comes up the rule is proven.

Ardent wrote:

You'll need to validate that statement somehow. IMHO, the justice system in this country has been a conveyer belt of disgraces for some time now and our health system is the laughing stock of Europe. Please explain how you think McDowell and Harney are actually doing good jobs??

"For some time now" is the key. McDowell and Harney have finally started moving things in the right direction, trying to get the processes in place to make improvements. Its not going to happen overnight, with the power of the unions anyone who thinks you can make fundamental changes overnight is in cuckoo land, but at least McDowell and Harney have things moving in the right direction. Presumably you think their predecessors for the last decade or more did a worse job given your "for some time now" comment.

flurby

The goverment (PD's included) has had ten years to get "things moving in the right direction". They haven't. Time's up, and the PD's, are the weakest link.

2% - read it and weep!

28064212

The Rooster wrote:

McDowell and Harney have finally started moving things in the right direction, trying to get the processes in place to make improvements.

Harney has been an unmitigated disaster for the last three years. Risk equalisation blew up her face, and was just about the stupidest thing anybody could have done. In June 2006, 2 years after she took the reins, the Health Consumer Powerhouse ranked the Irish health service as the second least "consumer-friendly" in the European Union and Switzerland, coming 25th out of 26 countries, ahead of only Lithuania. Her handling of the nurses' unions has been catastrophic. If she or the PDs are left in charge of the healthcare system, healthcare won't be a public service for much longer. Your level of care will be entirely dependent on how much you can afford.

McDowell is a bit of a trickier prospect. He has done some good in his time. The result of the citizenship referendum upheld his view (I don't agree with it personally, but we live in a democracy). The Garda Reserves was a good idea, although perhaps implementation could have been handled a bit better. The café-bar licences were a great concept which were destroyed by the Fianna Fáil publicans.

On the other hand, cases like Olunkunle Eluhanla's (the Nigerian who was deported right before his Leaving Cert) and his quote on gangland killings coming to an end ("sting of a dying wasp")didn't do him any favours. The recent spotlight on prisons being so cushy for high-profile prisoners has harmed him. His repeated accusations of other politicians for various misdeeds without any evidence (Sinn Féin in particular, and the incident where he accused the Greens of vandalising PD headquarters) hurt his credibility, particularly in light of the fact that he is Minister for Justice. His view on civil liberties is not exactly progressive, more suited to working under Bush's regime, and that doesn't play well in Ireland.

If you seriously can't see why the PDs are singled out for a lot of criticism after all that, I'd suggest seeing a psychiatrist. Although it'll have to be a private clinic, there's no funding to cover that under the HSE

The Rooster

28064212 wrote:

. If she or the PDs are left in charge of the healthcare system, healthcare won't be a public service for much longer. Your level of care will be entirely dependent on how much you can afford.

Fair enough opinion (tho I disagree with many parts) re McDowell but the quote above is entirely without foundation re Harney.

The new colocated private hospitals would free-up public rooms for public patients. And the new consultants contracts ensure its very attractive for consultants to stay 100% public (too attractive IMO).

Its a no brainer - but people forget to use their brains and just hear Rabbitte rhetoric.

And no sane person who understands private health insurance can think risk equalisation is a bad thing.

daveirl

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28064212

The Rooster wrote:

Fair enough opinion (tho I disagree with many parts) re McDowell but the quote above is entirely without foundation re Harney.

The new colocated private hospitals would free-up public rooms for public patients. And the new consultants contracts ensure its very attractive for consultants to stay 100% public (too attractive IMO).

Encouraging private hospitals in any shape or form is a mistake IMO. It's as bad as using public money to fund private schools. It creates a two-tier health system. If we had proper investment in healthcare (not just throwing money at it) there would be no private hospitals, because it wouldn't be profitable.

The Rooster wrote:

And no sane person who understands private health insurance can think risk equalisation is a bad thing.

I'm not saying that risk equalisation is neccessarily a bad thing, certainly not in this country at the moment. But Harney's handling of it was a disaster. Forcing Bupa out was a major mistake, and if Quinn hadn't stepped in, Irish health insurance would be rapidly heading for a meltdown. Personally, I want a state monopoly handling a compulsory health insurance service, but that's unlikely to happen any time soon.

The Rooster

Harney did not force BUPA out. BUPA were making super-profits and they were royally peeved that the gravy train would be over - but they would still turn a good profit and if Quinn hadnt bought them, someone else would, or they would have continued on regardless. The talk about making everyone redundant was a bluff and by the end everyone knew it. You hardly think Quinn stepped in to save the country?? He stepped in because he thinks he'll make money.

No public funds are being made available to build the colocated private hospitals.

The sites are being leased for 50 years, with an up-front payment of about a half a million euro and a yearly payment of at least the same amount being paid to the public hospital, which could increase if the private hospital makes good profit (but will not decrease if it makes losses). The private hospital has to fund the building of the new hospital. At the end of the lease ownership of the site and hospital reverts to the state.

billy the squid

The new colocated private hospitals would free-up public rooms for public patients. And the new consultants contracts ensure its very attractive for consultants to stay 100% public (too attractive IMO).

Co-location is stupid idea. You just have to take a look at the problems they are having with the new childrens hospital at the Mater to see the dangers that will be caused by co-location. There is a private hospital on the grounds of the Mater, and while both hospitals have been a success up to now, those building the Childrens hospital find that there isn't enough space to build it because of the presence of a private hospital taking up public space.

The Rooster

billy the squid wrote:

Co-location is stupid idea. You just have to take a look at the problems they are having with the new childrens hospital at the Mater to see the dangers that will be caused by co-location. There is a private hospital on the grounds of the Mater, and while both hospitals have been a success up to now, those building the Childrens hospital find that there isn't enough space to build it because of the presence of a private hospital taking up public space.

What?? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? The Mater Private is a roaring success and the Mater Public is performing very well. The children's hospital is irrelelvant to the private hospital debate. Whether there's enough room to build them (which seems to be your bizarre comment) is a "problem" for the new private hospital and I'd say its fairly certain that each bidder has had experts confirm it ok!

Someone should ask Pat Rabbitte where he goes when he needs medical attention. I know, and I'll give you a clue..... its not public

daveirl

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darkman2

Once again I say the real reason is begrudgery.


Classic Irish trait. Cant stand people that have more then them.


Thats the reality here. These people against the PD's are sheer begrudgers. Admit it FFS.


Irish people HATE people with money and even more so them showing it off and having representation.

Its interesting that none of them would comment on this point and try to disprove it. Because they know it is fact.