Why are the PD's singled out for criticism all the time?

Grudaire

I'm not sure if it was mentioned before,

But as I saw it on the tv debate, McDowell's main argument was that the other parties were bad.

He avoided questions on the drug situation from Adams by bringing up the IRA, he didn't even answer the question.

The comment "left, lefter and left overs" while funny shows how the PD's are... They place blame rather then deal with the situation. As sergent say's the Asbo's wasn't the answer, and I haven't seen them work at all.

galactus

Cliste wrote:

(snip)
The comment "left, lefter and left overs" while funny shows how the PD's are... They place blame rather then deal with the situation.

I have no doubt that was pre-prepared.

As for Rabbite's "Paris Hilton" quote: not funny. I hope he apologies to
...Paris Hilton.

daveirl

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Marcus.Aurelius

Let's just hope the PDs lose out for their failure to stop FF corruption. McDowell and Bertie making up after his recent (obvious!!!!) transgressions is disgusting.

Tricity Bendix

galactus wrote:

Any government can manage the economy: its not rocket-science. What has McDowell and his cronies to offer the legacy of our country?

I suggest you inform yourself as to how the economy was run prior to the foundation of the PDs.

Grudaire

daveirl wrote:

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I don't understand, are you advocating no unemployment benefit?

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Which is why we don't vote Fine Gael....

Get it into your heads people, a non pro Fianna Fáil/PD statement doesn't mean a pro Fine Gael one

joecoote

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Think this reply goes some way to explaining why the average joe doesn't vote for the PD's. On another forum a PD poster regretted that if the PD's had had the Health portfolio since 2002 "the job would have been accomplished" and the general public wouldn't have have been able to do anything about it. Obviously he/she was talking about privitising health care.

It's the general disdain and arrogance of PD policy that is putting "the public" off the PD's; coupled with the scare-mongering of its party leader which everybody sees through. The PD's general outlook which declares it knows best; everybody else are not smart as us; eveybody else is lazy; everyone else just do what we tell you to do - doesn't wash anymore. The politics of comforting the comfortable just doesn't seem right to the average person. There still is a social conscience in Irish politics.

Obviously their senoir partners in the coalition share as much responsibility for both the good and bad of the past decade. However, the FF leadership at least pays lipservice to caring about the great unwashed. PD's appear to think they're above pandering to the general public.

Tricity Bendix

joecoote wrote:

Think this reply goes some way to explaining why the average joe doesn't vote for the PD's. On another forum a PD poster regretted that if the PD's had had the Health portfolio since 2002 "the job would have been accomplished" and the general public wouldn't have have been able to do anything about it. Obviously he/she was talking about privitising health care.

It's the general disdain and arrogance of PD policy that is putting "the public" off the PD's; coupled with the scare-mongering of its party leader which everybody sees through. The PD's general outlook which declares it knows best; everybody else are not smart as us; eveybody else is lazy; everyone else just do what we tell you to do - doesn't wash anymore. The politics of comforting the comfortable just doesn't seem right to the average person. There still is a social conscience in Irish politics.

Obviously their senoir partners in the coalition share as much responsibility for both the good and bad of the past decade. However, the FF leadership at least pays lipservice to caring about the great unwashed. PD's appear to think they're above pandering to the general public.

Do PDs think they are above pandering to public opinion? Quite possibly yes.

Does that mean their world view conforms to anything like what you've described above? Absolutely not!

I'd like to reply with hard evidence, but you haven't provided any instances where PD policy is disdainful or arrogant.

You mention privatising the health service. What the PDs are trying to do is to remove subsidised private beds from public hospitals. This means that public hospitals will cater only for public patients, and that circa 1000 beds will be freed up which are currently occupied by those with private health insurance. The problem is, there is nowhere for the private beds to go at the moment. So that is why new private facilities need to be built.

You also mention paying lipservice to the mass unwashed. Well, the PDs have done more than just pay lipservice. The PDs have brought in one of the highest minimum wages in Europe, ensuring that employees have a chance to share in the nations wealth, while at the same time making employment more attractive than living off unemployment benefits.

Akrasia

the simple reason why the PDs are so hated IMO is that they have the unbelievable arrogance to think and declare that what is in their own best interests (the richest 2% in Ireland) must also be in everyone else's best interests too, and that if you disagree you are just a naive left winger who doesn't know anything about 'the real world'

Rock Climber

That would be a bit too simple akrasia.

joecoote

b.ie polar wrote:

. . .I'd like to reply with hard evidence, but you haven't provided any instances where PD policy is disdainful or arrogant.

You mention privatising the health service. What the PDs are trying to do is to remove subsidised private beds from public hospitals. This means that public hospitals will cater only for public patients, and that circa 1000 beds will be freed up which are currently occupied by those with private health insurance. The problem is, there is nowhere for the private beds to go at the moment. So that is why new private facilities need to be built.

You also mention paying lipservice to the mass unwashed. Well, the PDs have done more than just pay lipservice. The PDs have brought in one of the highest minimum wages in Europe, ensuring that employees have a chance to share in the nations wealth, while at the same time making employment more attractive than living off unemployment benefits.

I would define their arrogance in terms of they way they do business. They wish to use very expensive public land to build private hospitals. They are in essence giving away public land. If someone wants to build a private hospital by all means do so. However, don't tell us that the appropriation of public lands for private use is for the benefit of the general population. It is for the benefit of wealthy developers. No election manifesto ever talked about giving away public lands, nor about privatisation of the Health service.
From my viewpoint, there is a touch of arrogant conceit by implying that in aiding wealthy developers there is somehow a direct benefit to the ordinary citizen. "Trickle down" down economics benefits the wealthy. Full stop.

The minimum wage can also be looked at in a very different light than in which you paint it. In many service industry jobs, the minimum wage is the ceiling wage. Can anyone get a mortgage on minimum wage? No way, Jose. How far will the minimum wage go when people are forced into private health insurance when the health services are privitised? Not very. By all means, if one's an enterprising individual who can make a million, go for it. Don't expect mere mortals, however, to expect less of government service. Tax receipts are for the benefit of all, not for the priviledge of the few.

All these policies are essentially FF. It's just that PD's take such great pride in them. Those who are worried about the high cost of living, their bloated mortgages, and possible downturn in the economy would like to know there will be a more balanced approach to future governance. An entirely laissez-faire attitude to people 's financial future, couple with a Victorian view of those less well off, doesn't seen to be going down well with the electorate at the moment.

Tricity Bendix

joecoote wrote:

I would define their arrogance in terms of they way they do business. They wish to use very expensive public land to build private hospitals. They are in essence giving away public land. If someone wants to build a private hospital by all means do so. However, don't tell us that the appropriation of public lands for private use is for the benefit of the general population. It is for the benefit of wealthy developers. No election manifesto ever talked about giving away public lands, nor about privatisation of the Health service.
From my viewpoint, there is a touch of arrogant conceit by implying that in aiding wealthy developers there is somehow a direct benefit to the ordinary citizen. "Trickle down" down economics benefits the wealthy. Full stop.

They are not giving anything away. The land will be leased at market value to private operators. Currently, this land is worthless to the state as we are not going to fork out the dosh needed to build on it ourselves. Anyway, for this plan to work we're going to need co-location. The idea is that services like A&E will be shared and supported. One A&E will serve both. Furthermore, the effectiveness of the NTPF will be improved by co-location, with access to private places being offered at a discount rate to public patients. The claim that this is all an elaborate plan to screw over patients for the benefit of a few wealthy developers doesn't wash.

The minimum wage can also be looked at in a very different light than in which you paint it. In many service industry jobs, the minimum wage is the ceiling wage. Can anyone get a mortgage on minimum wage? No way, Jose. How far will the minimum wage go when people are forced into private health insurance when the health services are privitised? Not very. By all means, if one's an enterprising individual who can make a million, go for it. Don't expect mere mortals, however, to expect less of government service. Tax receipts are for the benefit of all, not for the priviledge of the few.

The health services are not and will not be privatised, so you can stop that line of thinking right there. Can anyone afford a mortgage on the minimum wage? Most likely not. But the minimum wage wasn't introduced in order to enable people to buy a house. Christ, do you want to just give someone a house? Like I've said, the minimum wage is generous compared to what you'll find in the rest of Europe.

As for it being a ceiling, I say that the ceiling would have existed regardless of whether the minimum wage was introduced or not. People working in low-skilled labour are going to receive a low wage, especially when there is an abundance of labour. You seem to think that the minimum wage can be used to solve all the country's ills, yet that blatantly isn't what it was designed for.

All these policies are essentially FF. It's just that PD's take such great pride in them. Those who are worried about the high cost of living, their bloated mortgages, and possible downturn in the economy would like to know there will be a more balanced approach to future governance. An entirely laissez-faire attitude to people 's financial future, couple with a Victorian view of those less well off, doesn't seen to be going down well with the electorate at the moment.

These policies are not "essentially FF". Look at the difference Harney has made in Health. It doesn't matter if you think she's the antichrist. But you can't deny that it is radically different from the performance of her FF predecessors.

As for the PD's being laissez-faire, I challenge you to back that up.

wrote:

the simple reason why the PDs are so hated IMO is that they have the unbelievable arrogance to think and declare that what is in their own best interests (the richest 2% in Ireland) must also be in everyone else's best interests too, and that if you disagree you are just a naive left winger who doesn't know anything about 'the real world'

Well, it's actually the Greens who have the richest supporters, so I suppose you can tar them with the same brush.

joecoote

b.ie polar wrote:

. . .These policies are not "essentially FF". Look at the difference Harney has made in Health. It doesn't matter if you think she's the antichrist. But you can't deny that it is radically different from the performance of her FF predecessors.

As for the PD's being laissez-faire, I challenge you to back that up. . .

Harney seems to be an efficient adminstrator who took on a difficult ministerial post. Her record, though, is no better than those who preceded her. She has two strikes on her hand. One just announced today. She has instituted the HSE which is nothing but a bloated and expensive bureaucractic nightmare. Her budget is sky rocketing out of control. Leaked HSE documents in the NE Region show scheduled down grading of services in Monaghan, Cavan and Louth right after the election. The promise of an improved regional hospital before downgrades is therefore untrue. She wants to appropriate public land for private developers use. She has a pending bill before the Dail to privatise VHI as a prelude to privitisation of the health services. The list goes on. If running rough-shod over the health care system of a wealthy western democracy, to implement a pay or suffer system, isn't laissez-faire in its outlook, I don't know what is.

irish_bob

wow , just the topic ive been wanting to debate for some time
im not the best debater in the world but ill give it my best shot
i am self employed but not college educated but i like the pd,s

why are the pd,s so unpopular ??? , its a question ive been asking myself for a heck of a long time now
considering the kind of policys the party espouses , one would think they would be at least as popular and as big a party as labour for example

i mean they are a party who believes stongly in the free market , believes in promoting private enterprise , low taxation , encouraging people to invest thier own money in innititives
and while theese are policys which result in them being branded right wing , you could not put a piece of paper between them and both fianna fail and fine gael on the above policys by and large
they are policys which a lot of irish people undoubtably agree with
they are however much more liberal on social issues than both FF AND FG

they are a libertarian party and thier are many irish people nowadays who have a libertarian outlook, they want to work hard to make money and they are not too bothered about what the church says either

it would seem to me that the pd,s are probably the party whos core idealogy is indicitive of how this country has become this past 10 to 15 yrs and the changes in this country in that period have been possitive for the most part

yet very little of this seems to register with voters

many in here have put forward the reasons for the pd,s lack of success and thier demonisation but i have my own reasons

1st of all i believe that in ireland no matter what anyone in here says , in ireland the vast majority of people vote for whoever their parents and family voted for
as a result , the pd,s are at a serious disadvantage , they have no traditin , they are not around long enough for a young voter now to be able to say , my mum and dad and thier mum and dad have always voted pd

this might seem quite spurious an opinion but it is one i am firmly convinced off
many irish people are not passionate about politics, many are not kept awake at night at the state of the health service and as a result when it comes to voting , they are influenced to vote by whoever as i said thier family vote for

another reason and i think this was mentioned that the pd,s are so unpopular is thier 2 main personalities are not all the cuddily , irish people need to have affection for thier politicians , this explains in many ways the love for bertie
margeret thatcher even she was a shinner could never have been elected in this country , we need to think that our politicians are nice in a daniel o donell kinda way , middle ireland is like that

micheal mc dowell is not afraid to court controversy and irish people dont like people who make too much of a fuss , better a guy like bertie who trys to get on with everyone , mc dowell has been extremly critical of ira criminal activity and rightly so , everyone knows the activitys of slab murphy and co and they are very influential people in the republican movement

he had the gardai on his back due to his effort to reform this rigid and intensly hostile to criticism of institutions , while the boys in blue were telling us that they were understaffed , hypocritically they fought tooth and nail against the introduction of the garda reserve , afraid of loosing out on some handy over time no doubt

so what if they guy comes across as being a little aloof , berties gives us enough of the common touch to make up for an entire cabinet

mary harney , well ive always found her a very honest poltician , like mc dowell , one who is not afraid to make unpopular descisions against sacred cows like the nurses
in this country the day you become a nurse is the day you are put on the short likes to cannonisation of sainthood , you are beyond criticism , you have no interest in money and your only need in life is to help the sick and the weak , whenever you ask for a pay rise , it should be given without question or else you are putting down theese saintly well paid men and women

of couse because you work in the public service, its not possible to be out to make a buck so as the pd,s are seen to be more pro private sector than public sector , they are seen as the party for those who are only interested in making money

as regards the points made in here in relation to how the media treats the pd,s
well its a mixed bag in my view
someone in here earlier said the sunday indo hates the pd,s
that is complete nonsense , in fact the pd,s are the reason the sunday indo has supported this goverment , while they like bertie , the sunday indo is a fiscally conservative but socially liberal paper just like the pd,s
the sindo is a libertarian idealogical paper

the irish times does not like the pd,s by and large , my opinion is that the times is a supporter of labour and the ivana bacik wing of it for the most part
apart from john watters , its very much a left wing paper in the same way that apart from gene kerrigan the sindo is right wing
oh and someone said earlier that rte is biased in reporting on the mid east conflict due to the fact that they always have bob fisk on and lara marlow
while marlowe is thee most annoying woman with thee most pretensous voice in the world , i believe bob fisk is one of thee most honest journalists out there , he takes a more sympathetic view towards the palastinans because they are the victims for the most part in that tragedy


anways back to the main topic in hand
i do agree that the pd,s get trashed for the goverments failures much more than FF do , FF are the cute hoors , the pd,s the ones who stand up and take the hard descisions even though they know they may loose support over them

i think thier going to take a hiddingin this election and unfortunatly due to the fact that they have no canditates in my consituency ,i cant help them

oh and just to finish up i would like to dispell this myth that the pd,s are a very right wing party , it may be resonable to say they are in the context of irish poltics but this is only the case because in this country most partys are so of the centre, thier a white line in the middle of a road
thier is no clear left right idealogical divide for the most part

in comparrisons to the DUP in northern ireland or the REPUBLICAN party in the usa, the pd,s are a bunch of screaming libs so lets perhaps not loose the run of ourselves in our branding mc dowell and co as being right wing
thier a neo liberal party , a libertarian party , fiscally conservative but completely secular unlike the afformentioned dup in the north or gop in the usa

i will finish by saying that thier are only 3 partys i would ever vote for , PD,S FF AND FG , the others are all into empowering the state as opposed to the individual and as far as im concerned you cant trust the state be it the gardai , the judiciary or the great big collosus of a lumbering dinasaur of an inneficent and over paid monster that is the public sector in general

seeing that the pd,s will probably be down to just 2 seats , i hope that mc dowell looses his , that way the public might get the mc dowell bogeyman perception of thier back and actually get to like the party
its policys should have a natural home with many modern irish people

so seeing thier out of the pic at this election , i want to see FF in power with labour with a change in the leadership at fianna fail
berties has been brilliant on the north but for fear of alienating even a single voter , he is reluctant to take on vested interests in the public sector so bring on an taoseach brian cowan as quick as possible and keep labour under control while your at it brian

Grudaire

Rock Climber wrote:

That would be a bit too simple akrasia.

Let's not forget either the quote the left, lefter and left overs

Remember that they have less of the first preference vote then Sinn Féin, a party they often refer to as marginal....

Tricity Bendix

joecoote wrote:

Harney seems to be an efficient adminstrator who took on a difficult ministerial post. Her record, though, is no better than those who preceded her. She has two strikes on her hand. One just announced today. She has instituted the HSE which is nothing but a bloated and expensive bureaucractic nightmare. Her budget is sky rocketing out of control. Leaked HSE documents in the NE Region show scheduled down grading of services in Monaghan, Cavan and Louth right after the election. The promise of an improved regional hospital before downgrades is therefore untrue. She wants to appropriate public land for private developers use. She has a pending bill before the Dail to privatise VHI as a prelude to privitisation of the health services. The list goes on. If running rough-shod over the health care system of a wealthy western democracy, to implement a pay or suffer system, isn't laissez-faire in its outlook, I don't know what is.

On the first point, you contradict yourself. You say she is essentially the same as FF and then you go on to say that she is radically changing the health services in this country. Its one or the other!

As for her record, a 40% improvement in A&E speaks for itself. And the HSE, although far from perfect, is superior to the old Health Boards.

On to laissez-faire.

There will still be public hospitals following the co-location plan. In fact, they will have more beds in them after those places earmarked for private patients have been moved out. And public land is not being appropriated for private developers benefit. Public land is being leased at a competitive rate to provide health care facilities for the public to use. If this is laissez-faire, then the nordic countries must be hot-beds of capitalism. It is the European norm to utilise the private sector in the provision of health services. It is only those blinded by ideology who fail to recognise so.

I've already brought up the issue of the minimum wage, which is hardly laissez-faire, but to continue my point I'd like to remind you which Minister triggered Risk Equalisation and went to court to defend it. The PDs might advocate smaller government, but to call them laissez-faire is simplistic.

Tricity Bendix

Cliste wrote:

Let's not forget either the quote the left, lefter and left overs

Remember that they have less of the first preference vote then Sinn Féin, a party they often refer to as marginal....

Firstly, if you're going to use a quote, try and get it right.

Secondly, provide examples of when the PDs have described SF as marginal.

Grudaire

Classic PD's don't deal with the question, just attack attack attack....
and looking at www.progressivedemocrats.ie reenforces my first point...

Left wing Gov, No Thanks

As for my second point, I can't seem to prove it, so feel free to ignore it!

McSandwich

b.ie polar wrote:

As for her record, a 40% improvement in A&E speaks for itself.

I'd love to know how this is measured, it's definitely not my experience.

kmick

The PD's were the party of principle and stand. But they have proven to us all that now they are a party of staying in power at all costs. Also a party who had 10 years and those 10 years were spent with no vision. They are completely discredited. And I used to like Mary Harney but she failed spectacularily at health. McDowell you have to admire the way you would admire a bank teller who wont give you a bank statement because it is now AIB policy not to give them out any more. Its all very depressing.

Tricity Bendix

McSandwich wrote:

I'd love to know how this is measured, it's definitely not my experience.

Its based on the numbers of people waiting in A&E. The numbers come from the INO.

kmick wrote:

And I used to like Mary Harney but she failed spectacularily at health.

Only if you count introducing hygene audits, slashing the numbers on tolleys in A&E, the abolishion of the Health Boards, the National Treatment Purchase Fund, multi annual funding for people with disabilities, introducing legislation to enforce standards of care in nursing homes, competition in the pharmacy sector, and expanding the role of nurses as failing.

irish_bob

The PD's were the party of principle and stand. But they have proven to us all that now they are a party of staying in power at all costs. Also a party who had 10 years and those 10 years were spent with no vision. They are completely discredited. And I used to like Mary Harney but she failed spectacularily at health. McDowell you have to admire the way you would admire a bank teller who wont give you a bank statement because it is now AIB policy not to give them out any more. Its all very depressing.


really, you think the pd,s are the party of staying in power at all costs
i would have thought that description would be more approriate for fianna fail
the pd,s have only ever gotten into bed with fianna fail yet ff have been by far the most promiscious of any political party

gerry stembridge was on newstalk this morning saying how no one ever seems to question fianna fail on this , as he put it , we have had ff in power with the pd,s for the past 10 yrs and now thier is talk that they may go into power with the pd,s direct opposties in every way sinn fein

have this party no mind of thier own , no principals said stembridge

someone wrote a long time ago about fianna fail , thier the qunitesential irish political party whos only idealogy is POWER

McSpud

irish_bob wrote:

The PD's were the party of principle and stand. But they have proven to us all that now they are a party of staying in power at all costs.

I have to agree with that. I think they are so used to power (showing true FF background) that they feel (probably correctly) they would die in opposition.

Seems like a long time since the PDs kept FF in check.

FF like to use the PDs as a scapegoat for any government failings too.

irish_bob

McSpud Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob
The PD's were the party of principle and stand. But they have proven to us all that now they are a party of staying in power at all costs.


I have to agree with that. I think they are so used to power (showing true FF background) that they feel (probably correctly) they would die in opposition.

Seems like a long time since the PDs kept FF in check.

FF like to use the PDs as a scapegoat for any government failings too.



not just fianna fail , the media does it too

AlanOB

The media bias against the PDs has been sickening quite frankly.

Even the Indo, which has a lot of centre-right people like myself writing for them has more often than not scapegoated the PDs for the so called "crises" in this country, purely on the basis of it's traditional FF support.

Which leads me to believe that the antipathy towards the PDs is not a matter of left-right allegiances. I've yet to hear one valid criticism of the party because no-one is looking at the ideology that they hold to. For example I've yet to see any journalist look at the ideological differences between the PDs and Labour and what that means for our country which is what should be the real talking point in this election due to the similarities between the two major parties. Instead, the media are focussing on painting a bad guy, evil, Nazi-esque image of the party, particularly McDowell, without backing it up with any actual concrete evidence.

This leads me to believe that there is simply an appetite within the media for a change of government simply to have something new to write about because clearly they don't seem to have any genuine agenda.

daveirl

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pork99

Not helping themselves with stuff like this;

Early this morning - about 8 am - I got a flyer for Fiona O'Malley through the letterbox. What's wrong with that? I live in Dublin South - O'Malley is the candidate for Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown.

On my way out I met the guy delivering them and told him that he was delivering leaflets in the wrong constituency and he answered "sorry - no speak-a-da-English". Great grass-roots support there.

FTA69

darkman2 wrote:

I know alot of it stems from SF supporters - a party rightly identified as having a thuggish element

Rightly identified by whom? I never met a thug during the years I was in Sinn Féin.

Grudaire

FTA69 wrote:

Rightly identified by whom? I never met a thug during the years I was in Sinn Féin.

As much as I think the PD's are fools, don't fool yourself man... What makes me really not like Sinn Féin is the stance on people like Gerry McCabes killers.

I mean its not as if Sinn Féin have had a army for years:rolleyes:

daveirl

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