Left Wing Government? No Thanks! | Hit or Miss?

DMC

brianthebard wrote:

Surely Rabbitte would be Tanaiste in any case?

And he'll have a ministry.

Pensioners do remember that a Labour minister for finance and a Democratic Left minister for Social Welfare increased the old-age pension by about €3, nil compared to inflation. Old people are more likely to vote that young 'uns, so McDowell's poster trick might work for them.

singingstranger

To be honest I don't even think McDowell was trying to make a point about what the 'alternative' Government would get up to, I think he was just confusing his own opinion (i.e. "left-wing, baaaaaaaad") with that of the rest of the country. By saying "The incoming Government will be left-of-centre" I reckon he's basically assuming the entire country hadn't yet noticed the political positioning of Labour and the GP, and assuming the rest of the country wants to reject leftie idealism.

Which, of course, is all well and good, but for the fact that now we're not strapped for cash, many people probably would like to see some idealism on the part of the Government for a change.

The Rooster

brianthebard wrote:

Why is it so important to point out that government would be left wing? What does this imply?

The focus moves away from enterprise, moves away from encouraging entrepreneurship, moves away from job creation, enocurages people to stay at home and scratch themselves, encourages higher tax for those who work to pay for those who won't.

That's extreme, but that'd be the fear. Especially with Rabbitte in Finance.

The ordinary PAYE worker, who works very hard, is earning an alright wage but pays plenty of tax as it is.......... its this man or woman who McDowell is dead right to warn about the dangers of a government with Rabbitte and the Greens.

AlanOB

Well said Rooster.

blorg

AlanOB wrote:

I don't think anyone needs telling that Rabbitte was first and foremost a Workers Party TD for Dublin South West, representing a party well known for their Marxist ideology, an ideology that is completely at odds with the free, enterprising and successful country we live in at present.

Putting all other animosity towards left-wing politics to one side, I do not under any circumstance want a reconstructed Marxist in control of the purse strings of my country and neither should any other right-minded individual.

Christ, DL split from the Workers Party fifteen years ago, and Rabbitte was one of the key people instigating that move away from the hard left. By contrast, fifteen years before Tony Blair became Prime Minister he was "a committed socialist who acknowledged his debt to Marx." Of course we all know how Stalinism has since taken hold over there in the UK over the last ten years.

The last Labour finance minister we had was Ruairi Quinn who was competent and fiscally conservative, and in office at the very start of the "celtic tiger." It's quite telling that another poster berates Quinn for not raising the pension enough! What's going on here, I'm confused- say NO to a left-wing government! They reduce taxes and rein in public spending too much!?

The PDs are scaremongering, it's complete News of the World stuff and really quite pathetic (oh yeah, sorry I left out the /sarcasm tag in my last post ;-)

brianthebard

The Rooster wrote:

The focus moves away from enterprise, moves away from encouraging entrepreneurship, moves away from job creation, enocurages people to stay at home and scratch themselves, encourages higher tax for those who work to pay for those who won't.

That's extreme, but that'd be the fear. Especially with Rabbitte in Finance.

The ordinary PAYE worker, who works very hard, is earning an alright wage but pays plenty of tax as it is.......... its this man or woman who McDowell is dead right to warn about the dangers of a government with Rabbitte and the Greens.

This is a joke, the focus does not move away from any of those things. And surely the ordinary PAYE worker would be more happy to have a left leaning government in power? The fact is FG will be government and it will be a centre government. There is no move away from what the people need and want, but instead an increased interest in the needs of the people, as opposed to the big businesses.

The Rooster

brianthebard wrote:

but instead an increased interest in the needs of the people, as opposed to the big businesses.

Yeah, we'll run all the big business out of the country, a great service to the people, assuming working isnt your bag...

Ruairi was never in the Workers Party, and has always been on the "right" side of Labour.

AlanOB

That's what it all comes down to Rooster with people on the left - their failure to understand that creating a positive environment for the so-called "evil corporations" is what benefits the average joe on the street at the end of the day. Maybe they overlook this because of some begrudgery towards people who have shown enterprise and intellect to reach the top of life's tree, who knows?

The point is to provide public services, everything is predicated first on creating an environment that's attractive to big business. Without employment, the net cashflow of the the Government is out, and the country stagnates and deteriorates as we and many, many other countries have learned over the years.

Funny how they have pulled out Ruairi Quinn one of the least leftist members of the Labour Party as a positive example.

blorg

The Rooster wrote:

Yeah, we'll run all the big business out of the country, a great service to the people, assuming working isnt your bag...

But this is exactly what we mean, it's all vague scaremongering. No specifics.

"Drive big business out of the country." How exactly? Because the current leader of a potential junior coalition partner may have belonged to a Marxist party two decades ago? (And tried to reform said party, and then left said party when that didn't work.)

And any specifics produced are at best misleading, often outright lies. For example: "The Greens are going to raise corporation tax." Except of course, that, no, they aren't. And even if they wanted to they couldn't, as they would be the junior junior partner in a coalition.

Maybe we have got used in the last ten years to the idea that the major coalition party lies back and lets a micro-party drive the agenda; doesn't mean that FG will do the same.

And BTW: our current Taoiseach is a socialist. Remember?

brianthebard

The Rooster wrote:

Yeah, we'll run all the big business out of the country, a great service to the people, assuming working isnt your bag...

Nice twist of my words, you could work for the PD's. The fact of the matter is I have seen the_minister and other PD supporters claiming that Labour are no longer a left wing party, yet when it might be able to be used as a slur against them, suddenly we're looking at Pat Rabbitte as a new Guevara. This is all clear smears and scaremongering with no content or actual reasoning behind it.

blorg

Funny how they have pulled out Ruairi Quinn one of the least leftist members of the Labour Party as a positive example.

Erm... in response to the suggestion that Labour in Finance would be a disaster. Well Quinn is, then, a somewhat relevant example. In fact he's not only the last but the first - oh, the only example of a Labour Minister for Finance. I wasn't exactly cherry-picking. I'm sorry, I should have referred to the time we had Gerry Adams in the job back in the 80s. You know, that time that everyone has forgotten.

This whole vague "watch out! reds under the bed" smear against the whole opposition would be like the supposed "left" (FG?) comparing Michael McDowell's right-leaning to fascism. But of course McDowell reserves the Nazi comparisons for his own use as well...

blorg

brianthebard wrote:

Nice twist of my words, you could work for the PD's.

And he probably does :rolleyes:

This is all clear smears and scaremongering with no content or actual reasoning behind it.

Completely agree. Personally, I think people need to be careful when considering voting for the PDs. Some of their populist rhetoric may be tempting, and god knows voting for anyone else would lead to DISASTER, but McDowell's tendencies towards baby-eating are well known. Moreso, his plans to arm the gardaí, with a view to the assasination of troublesome union leaders, is well-meaning but ultimately misguided. I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea of assasinating union leaders, but is that were it will stop? At the very least the task is a drain on state resources and should be out-sourced to private "contractors."

billy the squid

It was amusing to see a "Left Wing Government ... No Thanks" poster in the middle B/C weston this evining. normally an area where left wing parties would get votes.

I think it is a miss to be honest. for me anyway I would associate right wingers with the likes of Gw bush and maggie Thatcher, so I'll take left wing any day.

darkman2

Its a hit for me. McDowell has very good points but the ignorant wont listen. Sums up the Irish - never had it so good so lets vote them out.

Hector Gilbert

The "single party government - no thanks!" campaign last election was fundamentally different in its message, though perhaps not in its obvious intention to attract more attention and votes. It reminded voters who were happy with the way things were and did not wish for change that if the PDs did not still hold the balance of power then the government would indeed change, even if to a FF majority. On the other hand, the message this time around is merely a swipe at the opposition. Though I could see people agreeing with the sentiments of the campaign, as an appeal to the voting public at large it comes across to me as largely puerile and desperate.

joecoote

The rant and scare-mongering of party which dare not put its priviledge based program for government into the public domain.

The Rooster

blorg wrote:

And he probably does :rolleyes:

Hilarious. Someone agrees with a PD comment, so he must work for them :rolleyes:

Do you all work for the red rabbit?

Answer me this question then, anyone who supports Labour.

We all know the Pat Rabbitte main focus of attack on the government for the last few years has been the Health Service. At the same time the running of the economy hasnt been an issue. Publicly Labour have come around to the idea that the low tax economy works, and basically if they got in they'd try to keep running the economy as is (with just minor changes).

Under the agreement FG and Labour have made about a coalition, Pat Rabbitte will get his choice of ministry. Whatever he wants he gets. So does he choose Finance where he'll continue (or so he says) where FF/PD left off, or will he choose Health, where he says (and has been bleating on continually for years) that major reform is needed and that FF/PD are doing abysmally.

Answer?

Well if you don't know, he's already publicly stated he's going to be Minister for Finance. :eek: So something doesnt add up. He's happy to get a portfolio and continue pretty much as FF were doing? Or is he just afraid of Angola? A coward who knows it'll take years to make a difference because of unions and civil servants? Or does he want to bring some of his commie background into Finance??

I am actually first and foremost a FG supporter but I have floated around. If Richard Bruton was going to be Taoiseach or Finance Minister, I'd have no hesitation voting for FG this time around. But at present I have doubts about the influence Labour and Greens will have, so I'm leaning towards FF ahead of FG - but still there's a week to go and plenty can happen.

galactus

The Rooster wrote:

The focus moves away from enterprise, moves away from encouraging entrepreneurship, moves away from job creation, enocurages people to stay at home and scratch themselves, encourages higher tax for those who work to pay for those who won't.

That's extreme, but that'd be the fear. Especially with Rabbitte in Finance.

The ordinary PAYE worker, who works very hard, is earning an alright wage but pays plenty of tax as it is.......... its this man or woman who McDowell is dead right to warn about the dangers of a government with Rabbitte and the Greens.

This "right" vs. "left" thing is a bit stale but clearly, the present government do not know how to manage. See 17billion.com/ (non-aligned website with the facts).

Surely it is more important on how the taxpayer's money is actually spent rather than the total amount of money washing around.

In any case, where exactly is it in any party manifesto of the FG/Lab/Greens that states that they will discourage enterprise? Surely encouraging new forms of wealth-creation will benefit all Irish citizens. Are they going to ask the IDA not to try so hard or something??

You do make the point that the focus moves away from purely economics. That is not a bad thing. I don't want to sound glib but money can't solve every problem and creates more than a few.

With the focus solely on economics what can we expect when we have a Taoiseach who is an accountant. For a "man of the people", he seems to have a poor grasp of what is actually going on in this country.

I might add: "The ordinary PAYE worker" lined Haughey's pockets in the 80s.

The Rooster

Its all very well giving the bluster that a FG/Labour/Green coalition will continue the economic policies of FF/PD, but will change the way we spend the money, but bluster counts for nothing.

So I repeat the question - why does Rabbitte who has been so voiceferous re the health service, turn down the health portfolio. He constantly blabs on about "Change Change Change", and then I see he wants Finance and doesnt want Health!

galactus

The Rooster wrote:

Its all very well giving the bluster that a FG/Labour/Green coalition will continue the economic policies of FF/PD, but will change the way we spend the money, but bluster counts for nothing.

So I repeat the question - why does Rabbitte who has been so voiceferous re the health service, turn down the health portfolio. He constantly blabs on about "Change Change Change", and then I see he wants Finance and doesnt want Health!

Bluster? is that our word for today?

Any chance you can re-read my previous post!

brianthebard

The Rooster wrote:

Its all very well giving the bluster that a FG/Labour/Green coalition will continue the economic policies of FF/PD, but will change the way we spend the money, but bluster counts for nothing.

So I repeat the question - why does Rabbitte who has been so voiceferous re the health service, turn down the health portfolio. He constantly blabs on about "Change Change Change", and then I see he wants Finance and doesnt want Health!

Its clear to anyone who wants to see that money mismanagement has been the key factor in a lack of services, so it should be obvious that to tackle the health issue finance must first be in order.

The Rooster

brianthebard wrote:

Its clear to anyone who wants to see that money mismanagement has been the key factor in a lack of services, so it should be obvious that to tackle the health issue finance must first be in order.

I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish. "The money is there" is a direct quote from Rabbitte when asked how he's going to fund policies.

I'd imagine that like galactus, brianthebeard and myself, most are perplexed as to why Rabbitte demands Finance rather than Health.

The only answer I can come up with (which will probably switch my vote from FG to FF) is that he'll want to change things in Finance. Is there another answer out there. I'm sure I'm not the only "ordinary PAYE worker" worried about this.

galactus

The Rooster wrote:

I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish. "The money is there" is a direct quote from Rabbitte when asked how he's going to fund policies.

I'd imagine that like galactus, brianthebeard and myself, most are perplexed as to why Rabbitte demands Finance rather than Health.

The only answer I can come up with (which will probably switch my vote from FG to FF) is that he'll want to change things in Finance. Is there another answer out there. I'm sure I'm not the only "ordinary PAYE worker" worried about this.

Maybe he's more suited to Finance. And after all who would want Health/Angola?

brianthebard

The Rooster wrote:

I'm sorry, but thats absolute rubbish. "The money is there" is a direct quote from Rabbitte when asked how he's going to fund policies.

I'd imagine that like galactus, brianthebeard and myself, most are perplexed as to why Rabbitte demands Finance rather than Health.

The only answer I can come up with (which will probably switch my vote from FG to FF) is that he'll want to change things in Finance. Is there another answer out there. I'm sure I'm not the only "ordinary PAYE worker" worried about this.

Why is the ordinary PAYE worker worried? "The left" is supposed to represent those people. I believe they do. So why do you need to be worried?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

The Rooster

galactus wrote:

Maybe he's more suited to Finance. And after all who would want Health/Angola?

Excellent point. By refusing, Rabbitte is admitting he can't make a difference in Health. As you its say its Angola, like bashing your head against a brick wall - big changes are needed but there are very strong forces that will oppose all change. Rabbitte doesnt want to get stuck in that mess. I don't blame him.

The plum portfolio at this time is Finance. If you want to look good, be popular and massage your ego you'd go for Finance and continue the FF/PD/FG policies that the left side are coming round to. If you want to try and make a real difference, you'd pick Health. Again, very telling that Rabbitte picked Finance.

By the way, Harney wants Health. But she's got the balls to at least try and make things happen. Whether its possible to succeed is another question.

galactus

Agree completely with you on Harney, Rooster.

Not too convinced about Rabbitte *but* I won't be voting PD as i find McDowell completely reprehensible.

daveirl: Where are you getting this info from? Reading the GP manifesto on economic policy, i can't find any mention of it.

If people want real change: vote for the Green Party.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

silvine

The "Single Party Government? No Thanks" campaign was the tipping point last time for a lot of undecided voters.

We all knew FF were going to get in, there was no real competition. Many people felt someone needed to keep a balance and check on Bertie and company. McDowell, in one poster, convinced just enough voters why it should be the PDs.

This time, however, it is anyone's game.

"Left Wing Government? No Thanks" seems a little arrogant to me. Is it any different in principle to "Right Wing Government? No Thanks" depending on which side you like your politics buttered?

Why McDowell thought it would be clever to climb up another lamppost five years later is beyond me. He received a lot of grief about that stunt over the last few months, from Joe Higgins in particular. What did he expect when he tried it again? It wasn't as clever or fresh five years later.

Maybe McDowell has got some polling information we don't, which say there are large number of right wing voters undecided about who to vote for.

That aside, the whole thing became a comic book farce when Gormley arrived.

Stay off the lamp posts Mick.

The Rooster

silvine wrote:

Why McDowell thought it would be clever to climb up another lamppost five years later is beyond me. He received a lot of grief about that stunt over the last few months, from Joe Higgins in particular. What did he expect when he tried it again? It wasn't as clever or fresh five years later.

But what has clever or fresh got to do with it?

Because of the previous stunt there was a huge gaggle of media and photographers present. Then Gormley came along and made it the most exciting moment of the election up to that point. In the space of a split second the PDs went from being forgotten about to being front page headlines.

It was a roaring success for the PDs. Whether it will save any of their seats is another question.