Ahern v Kenny tonight

shinners007

bertie won ha ha:D

RalphCifaretto

Kenny was absolutely hammered on the tax issue. To clarify on the crime statistics, serious crime is down overall. I believe this is measured over 29 catagories, Kenny only mentioned the four which had seen an increase.

2040

Bertie had Enda agreeing with him 3 times and even had him apologise once. Kenny's inexperience really showed through. As Bertie was speaking, Kenny was too busy thinking of what he was going to say next rather than looking for Bertie's weak spots. Bertie on the other hand listened and attacked accordingly. Bertie was chancing his arm at various stages but Kenny never copped it. Health is Fine Gael's strong point but Enda failed to nail it. I thought Kenny concerned himself too much with soundbyte type concepts like leadership while Bertie talked specifics. I'm watching prime time now and they're saying draw, but really i thought it was Bertie.

marie_85

The whole debate reminded me of that Futurama episode with Jack Johnson and John Jackson running for president...

That said, I thought they both came across equally badly, and the debate itself was poorly chaired. Apologies to Miriam fans there.

Kenny had the opportunity to show up Ahern on health, transport, crime, school places and just never took the bait. He should have hammered home FF's appalling track record over the past ten years and instead let himself get drawn into an argument over figures. His 'I met a woman last week' stories failed to impress as well. But Ahern was equally poor. I may have zoned out with the overall dullness of the debate but did he actually try and claim at one point that we do not have a serious health crisis in the country at the moment??? Miriam should have been a lot harder and more aggressive with both candidates, especially Ahern. She was asking leading questions to both and practically feeding Ahern his answers.

shinners007

feeding ahern his answers my arse!! where you actually watching the debate!!
kenny stalled everytime before answering his questions, miram had to inform him his figures where infact in correct while good old bertie answered everything straight off even about his fianances, it was not about miriam having a go or being harder on them, kenny didint challlenge bertie as he hadnt the balls intellect or stats to back himself up end of!

darkman2

I think everyone knows Bertie won at this stage.

Mr.Nice Guy

Bertie handled the finance controversy well but Kenny hammered him on health which is the issue I feel will decide the election.

My view? 1-0 win to Enda.

brianthebard

darkman2 wrote:

I think everyone knows Bertie won at this stage.

I think we know who the government drones are at this stage, at any rate.

nesf

brianthebard wrote:

I think we know who the government drones are at this stage, at any rate.

And to be fair the opposition ones as well.

Dave3x

I was highly disappointed in Enda's performance, as I have been throughout the campaign. I'd love an alternative government, but everything I've seen has turned me away from the rainbow coalition.

In the debate, Bertie answered with facts and figures, without a moment's hesitation. Enda told anecdotes about someone he met, and waffled about vague concepts.

Enda also failed to answer the questions about where the money would come from- when asked what he would cut to provide extra hospital beds, he seemed to just talk about 'redistribution' or 're-prioritising' (if memory serves) rather than answering the question.

And the closing statements? Ignoring the Irish (and yes, I can understand it- but many can't) Enda failed miserably. The question was why would you be the best Taoiseach: Bertie listed his priorities and the importance of building on the past; Enda resorted to idealistic quotations which seemed insincere and prepared.

On the basis of all this, I'll be voting for my independent candidate, then FF.

Jean Dwyer

The_Minister wrote:

Bertie won on his personal finances, giving a credible sounding explanation for most of the questions.

You must be a Bertie ass licker.
Do you really believe his explanations on his finances ?
With regard to the funds he got for Mr Walls house that was 4 months before he bought a house. If this was the case why wasn't all the money lodged into the account €44,000 ?
Amount lodged equated to US$45,000 a shortage of some €16,000 I believe.

Regardless if he had a joint account with ex-wife why didn't he open a personal account ? Was he hiding money from the family court and ex-wife
Why did he get money (so called loans) from "business" mates when he had €50,000 under the mattress ?

He may not have got a glass of water but im sure he got a few brown envelopes. :mad:
Bertie had enough time and still expects the dumb fools to elect him in again.
His government mismanaged the coffers for 10 years making his cronies very rich people and being led around by the nose by the PD's just to stay in power.
Shame on the FF PD government.
We have no rail, roads or health service every thing they attempted to do they made a boll!x of it. ( E voting, port tunnel, M50, Luas. Metro. etc etc.....)
Time to fire them .
Use your vote wisely this time.

Enda had so much ammo to fire at bertie but failed. I am still impressed he did a lot better than I thought he would.

Lennoxschips

all kenny had to say was, "i won't comment on this issue, but i can guarantee you that i've never received 30 grand in sterling in from my landlord"

unless he has of course...

Lennoxschips

Enda also failed to answer the questions about where the money would come from- when asked what he would cut to provide extra hospital beds, he seemed to just talk about 'redistribution' or 're-prioritising' (if memory serves) rather than answering the question.

Did Ahern answer why the health service is in a mess? Why serious crimes are up? Why there is no public transport in this country?

You need to judge both of them equally critically.

Tá Mé Gaeilge

i say we have a poll to see who people would prefer as the next Taoiseach while we're at it

nesf

Lennoxschips wrote:

Why serious crimes are up?

That point was brought up and it was pointed out that serious crime is down.

McSandwich

My review: Bertie showed himself as a master bull****ter, Kenny didn't take full advantage and so let the opposition down..:rolleyes:

Result: Draw

jmcc

Looks like Enda lost this one - big time. How could FG could put such a non-entity with a poor command of the facts and statistics up against Bertie Ahern? I don't know if it is late enough to give FF the boost they need but a lot of floating voters may well change their minds about the Rainbow after last night's debate.

Regards...jmcc

AidoCQS

I think ye are missing the point, Sure Bertie won, but everybody knew who Bertie was and what he was capable of, the Question is whether Enda was a crediable alternative, could he punch in that weight so to speak? I think he was well able for Bertie. Bertie looked tierd and cranky. Enda did come off vulnerable, but that is showing a human caring side that is going to appeal to the voters on the day.

Look yesterday I completed the pole on the front page asking us to pick a favoured govt. I picked FF/Green, if it was today I would pick Green/Lab/Fg.

swiss

Unsurprisingly, the party faithful on both sides are saying that their leader was the winner in this debate.

Personally, I felt that both party leaders were composed and in command of themselves. Enda probably should have been somewhat more forceful - he seemed to have gotten crowded out on several occasions by Ahern speaking over him. This allowed the Taoiseach to concentrate on the points he wanted to make as opposed to the points Enda wanted to make. In that respect he controlled a lot of the debate. However, it also came across (to my mind) as rude and at times snide. Having the temerity to demand an answer at one point from Enda after constantly interrupting him really bugged me.

In the end however this debate was all about the talking points and soundbites, and who delivered them better. It did not raise anything new, interesting, or exciting.

Senator

Reading and listening to various commentaries this morning, the consensus seems to be that there was no outright winner although some say Bertie may have shaded it on points.

That won't be enough for FF, however, because the PDs are doing badly and with FF themselves dropping a few seats the present government won't have the numbers to stack up after the election. There is a whiff in the air of a desire for change.

On the other hand, Enda Kenny presented himself as an acceptable alternative Taoiseach if Bertie isn't available. Many people will just have thought "He'll do". He didn't offend them and "He'll do" will be enough to get FG, Labour and, if necessary, the Greens too over the finishing line first.

swiss

swiss wrote:

In the end however this debate was all about the talking points and soundbites, and who delivered them better. It did not raise anything new, interesting, or exciting.

Agreed.
I wasn't impressed with Aherns-"where are you going to get the money for the 2500 beds?"
I mean it's not as black and white as canceling cancer care-that was a pure scarey tactic sound bite.Theres money being wasted all over the shop.Kenny's challenge is to mop that up when he gets in which I believe he probably will (get in that is,I'm not so convinced that he'll do what he says he'll do when in there).

PH01

Any neutral viewer of last night's debate would say that Bertie 'won'. Though 'won' is probably the wrong phrase to use.
Who-came-across-well would be better. Bertie did that.

But will it make a difference?
That depends on how the media picks up on the result. But for now, I reckon that Bertie's performance last night might just have saved FF a couple of seats and the overall result on this day week may not be different.

redspider

I have to say I was shocked and surprised to see RTE's headline this morning "Ahern Wins Strong Debate". http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0518/election.html

I watched the debate last night in full and the correct observation is that it was a draw with both people giving and taking and exchanging and trading various points, and that is what the vast majority of neutral observers will be declaring.

Indeed, there is an argument that in such debates there can be no winner as it is very very subjective and it should be left up to the voters to decide.

I think it goes against the remit of RTE to declare a clear winner as RTE should act as impartial in all political issues. RTE has a major responsibility in this matter and are abusing it imo, as it is well known that the 'talking and reporting' of the debate afterwards can be more influential than the debate itself as it is more digestible to the public at large in comparison to the debate itself which many voters wouldnt be bothered following or listening to.

RTE should change their report and subsequent reports and should be neutral on this.

hughchal wrote:

How anyone can call winner or loser is beyond me. It's subjective

exactly ......

Redspider

Sizzler

I was fairly neutral before this debate and ready to give both lads a fair crack of the whip but for me Enda made a good start and I liked the fact he went through his "contract" points on his opening gambit, something Bertie didnt do.

After about 25 mins though Bertie got more of the chatter and rolled out supreme confidence and made Enda's manifesto look shoddy at best (from a financial perspective at least). Bertie shot down a lot of the FG propaganda about FF's failings and was LOL at Enda's constant twitching, his body language screamed "Im out of my depth here" although in fairness his speech never waivered.

The ramblings about *contract* to the people, they dont seem to have a clue about when they can deliver any of these points

My major concern would be exactly who FG would have on the front bench...never thought of it till last night but now Id be worried, so despite wanting to give a new lad a crack at the title, Im sorry Enda et al you wont be getting my vote

Red Alert

I think bertie was given a break by RTE, as he got more camera time, more air time and less mid-speech interruptions from Miriam O'Callaghan.

Enda should not have let Bertie speak over him so much. Otherwise he was fine. He spelled out the specifics from his contract well.

What Bertie showed is that his government is indecisive and cannot just make a choice and run with it. Why did nobody mention electronic voting or carbon credits? The PPARS, the Metro and bertie's inability to fire someone who is incompetent and/or unethical is just unacceptable.

dodgyme

redspider wrote:

I have to say I was shocked and surprised to see RTE's headline this morning "Ahern Wins Strong Debate". http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0518/election.html

That is fairly disgraceful alright especially when most people seem to think that the debate was a draw or ahern shaded it!

RTE were prob told by FF that they would get a tenner increase in the licence fee for the headline, oh sorry its not still the 80's is it?

Erin Go Brath

I would have scored the debate a draw, a dull scoreless draw at that.

Enda Kenny performed a lot better that I thought he would. He seemed to come across as a potential capable leader of government. He had some ideas which sounded like good ideas anyway whether or not they are achievable is another thing. He could have brought up stuff like the Bertie Bowl, E-Voting fiasco and other taxpayers money down the drain schemes that Fianna Fail have been guilty of to score points. He also lost an opportunity to attack the Taoiseach over his finances. Maybe its a nice guy philosophy FG are trying to portray. Did pretty well on his partys policies and hes going to implement them.

Bertie was as you'd expect somebody whos been Taoiseach for 10 years, totally in control, and not fazed by anything. He knew his facts, figures, and was well able to deal with anything that Enda Kenny levelled at him. A pretty good all round performance from the Taoiseach too I thought.

I've no preference for a Taoiseach between the two tbh. Maybe give Kenny a chance and see what can do mightn't be a bad thing?

Senator

RTE is still a very "political" station being the official State broadcaster governed by legislation and with a Board stuffed with political appointments. Many people in the organisation owe their positions to political influence and string-pulling rather than their own supposed journalistic or other brilliance.

nollaig

Having the temerity to demand an answer at one point from Enda after constantly interrupting him really bugged me.

Yeah, that bugged me too.

I actually thought Kenny did very well, he messed up a little with the stats for crime but other than that, he was good.

AidoCQS

What came across to me is that Enda will work if he gets in, and he will work hard because he has given certain commitments. If Bertie gets in, it will be like Bush's last term, it will be his swan song, there will be an excuse for everything, the man will have no point to prove

The only thing that does bother me is will this 'contract' lead to an inflexability that makes it hard to manage, adapt and change in a fluid way