Ahern v Kenny tonight

jmayo

Did not think MOC handled debate well. Bring back Brian Farrell !

I thought Bertie was brave in mentioning the 7 Luas lines and the two metros that are not even built.
Did Bertie also mention that PPARS was a success ?

Enda should have hammered home more on the waste of tax payers money.
He only used them at end of sentences or as quiet rebuttals instead of starting sentence with them where they have more affect.
I think he was afraid of coming across as Michael Noonan.

Also he should have used Harry Trumans motto "The buck stops here" as it would have hang rang true with how the buck never seems to stop at any minister in the outgoing regime.

Never mind this debate, the real interesing thing I saw last night was Pat Rabitte state to Cooper and Hobbs, that they would slim down HSE admin by relocation, redundancies etc.
Best thing I have heard all election.
About time somebody has come out and said what needs to be done.

He also fired shot across bows mentioning that private sector workers are looking for value for money from their public sector counterparts.

jmayo

Sizzler wrote:

My major concern would be exactly who FG would have on the front bench...never thought of it till last night but now Id be worried, so despite wanting to give a new lad a crack at the title, Im sorry Enda et al you wont be getting my vote

Have to say I find it interesting that people worry about who will on the FG/Lab front bench.
I know it will be hard to replace such luninaries as Brian Lenihan, Dick Roche, Martin Cullen and Wille O'Dea.
After all they have been so successful and yet are so modest about their achievements

ednwireland

where was hector i would have rather have seen him hanging with derval o'rourke myself than watching those two tell us what we have seen for 2 weeks
i didnt watch it btw after seeing 10 mins of the previous one hese debates are about not losing not winning

PoolDude

I agree with the below points taken from one of the closed threads.

In addition Kenny talked about the 'team' yet it was clear he wasn't in synch with his team on crime - J O'Keefe and Bertie exploited that (although could have done so more). Enda looked poor in his response that he was talking to the leader now as he seemed unconvincing and embarassed at what he was saying.

Finally, I think that Enda went into the debate with a lot of credibility built up and an expectation that the energy he can bring will re-energise the nation. Bertie went in with a little less credibility than ever before. For this reason, on the points below, Enda ended up loosing because he lost that credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flogen
Win for Bertie by 3 points after 12 rounds.

A very dull match with only three punches connecting properly in my opinion, and they were all from Bertie.

Enda had a great chance to ridicule Bertie's transport plan and didn't. He should have turned the screw on the metro for 2007 and didn't and when Bertie said "no other country in Europe is currently building 2 metro lines and 7 luas extensions" he should have retorted "well that's because every other country in Europe built their metros and light rail networks long ago".

Three landed punches:
FG tax policy benefiting the top 3% most (Enda kept saying it would benefit everyone but didn't deny that it would benefit the rich most - I think he could have come back on a slip up by Bertie on PRSI but failed to pick up on it.)

FG plans to put 2000 Gardaí on the street in addition to today's figures - 800 of those will be on the streets by December no matter what so FG are only adding 1,200 to that.

FG plans for free GP care for the under 5s - Bertie making the point that it won't benefit any child born today... that doesn't mean it's a bad idea, it just means that voters with newborn children will be turned off by it where they might have supported it otherwise.


have to agree there...and add another punch for bertie- Ahern really made a joke of Fine Gaels 2300 extra hospital beds imo. Kennt didnt seem to know his figures at all

Padraig Mor

As someone who will be voting neither FF nor FG I thought - from the 30 min or so I saw - that Enda Kenny wiped the floor with Bertie. Sure, Bertie seemed to be catching Enda on little details of how he was going to pay for his promises but I think this is largely irrelevant as I believe that neither party has any hope of delivering their promises! I was also impressed with Enda keeping his gaze on Bertie, whereas as Bertie seemed to be *constantly* looking down at the desk (giving me the impression that he was a bit shifty). Bertie's constant interruptions pretty much came to nothing as he usually seemed to let Enda finish - giving the impression that Enda was controlling the flow of conservation.

The Rooster

jmayo wrote:

Never mind this debate, the real interesing thing I saw last night was Pat Rabitte state to Cooper and Hobbs, that they would slim down HSE admin by relocation, redundancies etc.
Best thing I have heard all election.
About time somebody has come out and said what needs to be done.

He also fired shot across bows mentioning that private sector workers are looking for value for money from their public sector counterparts.

Indeed, that would be way to go. But with the power of the unions, its far easier said than done.

Also, given Rabbitte has refused to take the health portfolio in a FG/Lab govt, his comments can be written off as bluster.

Senator

Senator wrote:

RTE is still a very "political" station being the official State broadcaster governed by legislation and with a Board stuffed with political appointments. Many people in the organisation owe their positions to political influence and string-pulling rather than their own supposed journalistic or other brilliance.

dodgyme wrote:

That is fairly disgraceful alright especially when most people seem to think that the debate was a draw or ahern shaded it!

RTE were prob told by FF that they would get a tenner increase in the licence fee for the headline, oh sorry its not still the 80's is it?

Oh pleeeeeaaaassseee!!

Even Vincent Browne thought Ahern won it last night on his radio show as did all of his panel and 2 thirds of the people he said he texted on his own phone last night.

Why? Because these guys are journo's and interested parties and if ever there were a cohort who look at the technical things then theres the group for you.
Ahern dealt a few more "technical" blows to Kenny last night alright but the ordinary man/woman on the street watching Kenny probably thought he did well.As I said earlier I'd imagine they'd have more time for a politician that says he'll take a fresh look at expenditure as opposed to some one who has proven that he doesnt mind a bit of waste as long as the bigger picture is theres loadsa lolly coming in.

By the way whenever I hear a report from RTÉ's Alan Mccullagh I always get the impression he's not in the FF camp.
He always seems to colour his reports with subtle disdain for FF and with a hint that the opposition are ok.
When he isnt being subtle he'll raise an eyebrow or give his report an empasis in certain sentences that underlines a favouritism by him that I seem to be perceiving.
He'd be one of the more prevalent reporters on RTÉ.
You take George Lee then and try to tell me that he is FF leaning...? Quite the opposite I'd say.
So I don't think theres much basis for complaint but thats my view there-lets get back on topic.

On the the debate,I think the ordinary man on the street may have identified more with Kenny last night.

100gSoma

Hi all,


Firstly Im not surprised the RTE headlines this morning proclaim a "BERTIE WIN" tagline... The debate commentator seemed to ask negatively loaded questions to Enda and neutral questions to Bertie. That's just my opinion and I was fairly neutral and objective watching this TV debate.

I agree that Enda could have been slightly more forceful and commanding as Bertie repeatedly spoke over him to drown him out. At one point Enda even apologised for speaking over Bertie. It seems maybe slightly weak. Bertie could have used this to his advantage but he over cooked it. At times I found myself wanted to shout at the TV "shut up Bertie and let him reply"... It was too much. I think these debates are won or lost on the psychology of the debate not the content. Case in point is the recent Sarkozy win in France. He never raised his voice and sat there with a snide smile and a very calm and commanding demeanour. His opponent lost her temper several times, and this is where it ended for her.
Last night Bertie seemed aggressive, and defensive. He sounded totally incompetent when he was saying "where Deputy, where where will you get the money" delighted with himself. Made my skin crawl.
I think Endas finishing was much stornger than Bertie and I was very surprised that RTE asked Bertie to give his closing argument first. Enda did well to throw in the "cupla focal" and he finshed quite strongly with his lincoln quote. He looked much more confident and less defensive than Bertie. Although Enda did portray slight weakness (not respect) by allowing Bertie talk over him, I still think Bertie although not weak at all came across as aggressive bullying and defensive. Like someone in court who is unremorseful and still convinced they are right no matter what.

Tough to call. I certainly would not proclaim a Bertie win. At best, a tie. (at best)

100gSoma

RalphCifaretto wrote:

Kenny was absolutely hammered on the tax issue. To clarify on the crime statistics, serious crime is down overall. I believe this is measured over 29 catagories, Kenny only mentioned the four which had seen an increase.

yeah? and to be honest I'm more concerned with those 3 Kenny mentioned i.e. Violent Crime. Are you not? Rape, Gun Crime, Murder.

burnedfaceman

Pooldude wrote:

Three landed punches:
FG tax policy benefiting the top 3% most (Enda kept saying it would benefit everyone but didn't deny that it would benefit the rich most - I think he could have come back on a slip up by Bertie on PRSI but failed to pick up on it.)

FG plans to put 2000 Gardaí on the street in addition to today's figures - 800 of those will be on the streets by December no matter what so FG are only adding 1,200 to that.

FG plans for free GP care for the under 5s - Bertie making the point that it won't benefit any child born today... that doesn't mean it's a bad idea, it just means that voters with newborn children will be turned off by it where they might have supported it otherwise.


have to agree there...and add another punch for bertie- Ahern really made a joke of Fine Gaels 2300 extra hospital beds imo. Kennt didnt seem to know his figures at all[/I]

in respect to crime i thought enda won. FF promises to have gardai on streets now not end of financial year. FG will put 2000 guards on street as of time they take office, irrespective of whether they are in training or not, FG will have delivered on their word.. bertie saying prisoners talking on phones was disgraceful, yes it was but were has been accountability in his government. enda has promised to sack ministers who dont deliver. bertie wouldnt shut up about prison and never answered why land purchased was so expensive

bertie trying to portray everything as a bed of roses in hospitals was disgusting. as outlined the money in national development fund is there to be spent by government so FG have not committed the money to anything FF have so whats the problem with them saying they will prioritise creating hospital beds?

like any other plan the under 5 healthcare would be staged and certainly is a step in right direction i certainly see no faults in it. berite trying to pick holes in it was a joke sure look at his governments complete failure to deliver its plans such as bertie bowl, metro, gardai numbers, hospital beds, evoting etc,

in respect to taxation so what if some benefit more than others sure isnt this what happens in every budget? at least all will benefit under FG plans.

asm for bertie talking about the economy, our overdependence on construction is a serious problem and FF is the construction industry!

as for education, enda outlined how will cut class sizes and in regard to adh education for autistic children having read of the immense benefits of this form of education in papers find it disgraceful that taoisaech had nerve to say they are wrong what experience or knowledge does he have in this field to comment on it.

was endas cupla focail gaeilge aimed at highlighting his credentials as a national leader with the ability to speak irish or just showing bertie up to be a pleb?

also bertie trying to portray himself as working class salt of the earth was also pathetic he grew up on grounds of all hallows college in drumcondra he hardly grew up in a tenement now did he? also in relation to his finances the implication of him not holding a bank account would be that he was trying to hide money from his wife. and in respect to his "loans" why did he only pay them off when they were brought into public eye not when he had ability to pay them off??

Miss Judy

I dunno, think it was very boring to say the least, nothing we haven't heard before and you never get a concise answer from either of them on any topic. I am not a Bertie fan or too mad about Enda either, so realisitically we have a really bad choice of Taoiseach here. I fell asleep and went to bed, they were really starting to bore me and set repetitive.

The only decent member of the FF party in the cabinet is Brian Cowen, think he does a good job and isn't as annoying as the others. The rest of them are as shifty and looking at the present government, if they do get back in again, who is he going to appoint as minister for health, education, justice and transport?, who is fit for the job??. You can say the same for FG/Labour. I always had a lot of time for Ruari Quinn though but he isn't a prominent as he used to be.

Hope we see the back of the PD's.

All in all, that debate didn't have a winner in many peoples opinion, we have been discussing it here in the office and nobody is any closer to making a descision on who to vote for!.

redspider

AidoCQS wrote:

If Bertie gets in, it will be like Bush's last term, it will be his swan song, there will be an excuse for everything, the man will have no point to prove

The only thing that does bother me is will this 'contract' lead to an inflexability that makes it hard to manage, adapt and change in a fluid way

Yes, I agree that if Bertie does get back in the next government it is likely to be a lazy one. 15 years of the same Government does tend to lead itself to a flagging performance, and a 'lame duck' Taoiseach towards the end as others vie for positions. Most political observers would think that 2 terms for any Government is about right. I think FF should have gone into this election with a new front bench and they could have done a lot better in terms of seats, as they would have been fighting it with a new team, and that would have also meant a new leader as in Brian Cowen. Trying to win a 3rd term with the same old, same old is a hard task.

Yes, I also think this 'contract' aspect is being overplayed. Kenny keeps referring to it in a mantra and as an answer to all. We will do X, Y, Z in a contract. The phrase is a new one for Irish politics and it wont necessarily endear him to voters. People are used to promises, and broken ones!

I think its okay and indeed an improvement in politics to see the contract being used as a mechanism and the threat of 'heads will roll'. No heads rolled in the last one which is a sign of a weak over-riding government which is not in touch with the people or with its own failings. A government that thinks its perfect is surely a dangerous one. But too much emphasis by the prospective FG-led government on this new mechanism of a contract and the banging on about it may not attract that many swing-voters over.

> RTE is still a very "political" station being the official State broadcaster governed by legislation and with a Board stuffed with political appointments. Many people in the organisation owe their positions to political influence and string-pulling rather than their own supposed journalistic or other brilliance.

Correct. RTE does have 'issues'. Their headline is very misleading and is a soundbite that will be digested and taken on board as fact by many of the public. To me, that's a break of their charter, which they of course break regularly.

Redspider

PoolDude

My take on these based on the average person just watching and making their own interpretation of what was being said, I think they would have been left with this impression (rightly or wrongly):

burnedfaceman wrote:

in respect to crime i thought enda won. FF promises to have gardai on streets now not end of financial year. FG will put 2000 guards on street as of time they take office, irrespective of whether they are in training or not, FG will have delivered on their word.. bertie saying prisoners talking on phones was disgraceful, yes it was but were has been accountability in his government. enda has promised to sack ministers who dont deliver. bertie wouldnt shut up about prison and never answered why land purchased was so expensive

FF = 16000, FG = 15000 - Winner = Bertie.

bertie trying to portray everything as a bed of roses in hospitals was disgusting. as outlined the money in national development fund is there to be spent by government so FG have not committed the money to anything FF have so whats the problem with them saying they will prioritise creating hospital beds?

Logical arguments but it sounds like FG will de-prioritise Cervical Cancer and Breast checks to do this and we all know people that have been impacted by this and the impact of the big C - Winner = Bertie

like any other plan the under 5 healthcare would be staged and certainly is a step in right direction i certainly see no faults in it. berite trying to pick holes in it was a joke sure look at his governments complete failure to deliver its plans such as bertie bowl, metro, gardai numbers, hospital beds, evoting etc,

Great FG idea but hang on a minute they led me to think my 3 kids who are all under 5 will get this but now it seems as if none of them will get it. Loss of credibility and now I'm a little annouyed - Winner - Bertie

in respect to taxation so what if some benefit more than others sure isnt this what happens in every budget? at least all will benefit under FG plans.

Enda won't give a straight answer on this, on the one hand cool, maybe I'll benefit more but on the other its another bit of credibility gone - is this contract I'm being sold all a sham? - Winner = Bertie

asm for bertie talking about the economy, our overdependence on construction is a serious problem and FF is the construction industry!

Didn't hear this mentioned only that both were focused on sustaining th economy and understood the value of Foreign Direct Investment - Draw
FF have the experience here and were able to manage adjustment required by 9/11 - Winner = Bertie

as for education, enda outlined how will cut class sizes and in regard to adh education for autistic children having read of the immense benefits of this form of education in papers find it disgraceful that taoisaech had nerve to say they are wrong what experience or knowledge does he have in this field to comment on it.

I think we all relate to the ADH cases and on this and the general empathy with this Enda made good points - Winner = Enda

was endas cupla focail gaeilge aimed at highlighting his credentials as a national leader with the ability to speak irish or just showing bertie up to be a pleb?

This was a good idea in some regards and came across well to me, others maybe less educated could have associated this with Bertie being a man of the people and Enda trying to show himself as the big fella, all edumacted and stuff - Draw (Depends on the listener

also bertie trying to portray himself as working class salt of the earth was also pathetic he grew up on grounds of all hallows college in drumcondra he hardly grew up in a tenement now did he? also in relation to his finances the implication of him not holding a bank account would be that he was trying to hide money from his wife. and in respect to his "loans" why did he only pay them off when they were brought into public eye not when he had ability to pay them off??

I know I'm bored of all this but I'm sure it has put doubts in the minds of many - Winner = Enda

PoolDude

I also wonder what merit there is to what John Waters is saying.

FF will be back in government because if the economy does turn down the people can blame the governement as they have managed it for 10 - 15 years where as if there is a change in government and the economy goes belly up its our fault for changing the government.

An argument I hadn't thought about and wonder if anyone else would but interesting non the less.

slumped

PoolDude wrote:

I also wonder what merit there is to what John Waters is saying.

FF will be back in government because if the economy does turn down the people can blame the governement as they have managed it for 10 - 15 years where as if there is a change in government and the economy goes belly up its our fault for changing the government.

An argument I hadn't thought about and wonder if anyone else would but interesting non the less.

That is a very good way of looking at it.

S

The_Minister

Tristrame wrote:

I wasn't impressed with Aherns-"where are you going to get the money for the 2500 beds?"

I was. FG had been dodging that question for ages, refusing to answer, and I'm glad that Kenny finally got nailed on it.

nollaig

At one point Enda even apologised for speaking over Bertie. It seems maybe slightly weak.

I absolutely hate it when people talk over each other in debates like this. I noticed when Kenny said sorry and I didnt see it as weak at all, just politeness. It is not right to interuppt somebody in the middle of their point and Kenny realised that. He went up for me there compared to when Ahern kept telling Kenny to answer the question and then just kept interupting.

On the crime stats, Kenny made a mess of it.

But on health, I thought he did very well, even when talking about the 2.4 billion. Looks to me like Fine Gael are going to prioritise things, whereas from what Bertie Ahern was saying, it looks like Fianna Fail are giving a piece to everybody without really giving enough to anybody!

Thought Kenny could have done more with the quality of life, they got off the transport & commuting issue quickly, where kenny could have brought up numerous points. But he did ok when they went on about schools

nollaig

I was. FG had been dodging that question for ages, refusing to answer, and I'm glad that Kenny finally got nailed on it.

But he didnt, that from the 2.4 billion, that 2300 beds would be the top priority.

burnedfaceman

in respect to the john waters argument i had thought about voting along those lines so that in the event those smug fcukers in FF wouldnt be able to preach how great they are in terms of the economy etc. and lets see how they try get out of **** creek swimming against the current of a econmomy in recession but then again FF would blame something else on their poor management..lets face it if ff were an ice cream they would lick themselves and to borrow michael noonans word they are like the cock that wakes up in the morning and thinks that its crowing is responsible for the sunrise:D

as previous posters have stated the leadership debate is all about credibility and i felt kenny conducted himself in a manner which would give me confidence in him as a taoiseach. he was honest and polite which i felt was very refreshing for a senior politician.. bertie is past it and if ff were to be elected i doubt he would see out full term, he obviously benefited from his experience as taoiseach but that was to be expected, i disliked him manner of talking over kenny and then having the cheek to demand answers from kenny when kenny did the same. as I previously stated enda proved that he was capable of conducting himself as a taoiseach should. i had decided to vote for the rainbow prior to this debate as i am sick of FF in power ,their arrogance, squandering of public money and failure to deal with key issues which effect me and lack of accountability for their blatant failures

nacho libre

100gSoma wrote:

Hi all,


Firstly Im not surprised the RTE headlines this morning proclaim a "BERTIE WIN" tagline... The debate commentator seemed to ask negatively loaded questions to Enda and neutral questions to Bertie. That's just my opinion and I was fairly neutral and objective watching this TV debate.

I agree that Enda could have been slightly more forceful and commanding as Bertie repeatedly spoke over him to drown him out. At one point Enda even apologised for speaking over Bertie. It seems maybe slightly weak. Bertie could have used this to his advantage but he over cooked it. At times I found myself wanted to shout at the TV "shut up Bertie and let him reply"... It was too much. I think these debates are won or lost on the psychology of the debate not the content. Case in point is the recent Sarkozy win in France. He never raised his voice and sat there with a snide smile and a very calm and commanding demeanour. His opponent lost her temper several times, and this is where it ended for her.
Last night Bertie seemed aggressive, and defensive. He sounded totally incompetent when he was saying "where Deputy, where where will you get the money" delighted with himself. Made my skin crawl.
I think Endas finishing was much stornger than Bertie and I was very surprised that RTE asked Bertie to give his closing argument first. Enda did well to throw in the "cupla focal" and he finshed quite strongly with his lincoln quote. He looked much more confident and less defensive than Bertie. Although Enda did portray slight weakness (not respect) by allowing Bertie talk over him, I still think Bertie although not weak at all came across as aggressive bullying and defensive. Like someone in court who is unremorseful and still convinced they are right no matter what.

Tough to call. I certainly would not proclaim a Bertie win. At best, a tie. (at best)

Totally agree with this poster. Good post.

Lennoxschips

He went up for me there compared to when Ahern kept telling Kenny to answer the question and then just kept interupting.

Yeah, like when Kenny was trying to explain why he was against that prison that was built on the most expensive land in Europe, Ahern just wouldn't let him speak, kept repeating, "why are you against the prison? why are you against the prison?" A bully. I'll be glad to see him out of office.

I'm not impressed about RTE's claim that Bertie won the debate according to the pundits. One of the pundits was PJ O'Mara, for christ's sake.

redspider

Lennoxschips wrote:

I'm not impressed about RTE's claim that Bertie won the debate according to the pundits. One of the pundits was PJ O'Mara, for christ's sake.

Well, RTE did have the FG election chap on as well so PJ was balanced out. However, I think RTE shouldnt have had either on as in no way would they be partisan and they were a waste of air-time. They were going to support their candidates one way or the other.

RTE have changed their headline to "Pundits declare Ahern debate winner". This is still misleading to me because I have yet to see a list of pundits and their declaration one way or the other as to who was the winner or not. Their own TV programme last night was very much a draw based on the mere 2 pundits there, although I have heard that the Vincent Browne radio programme 'gave it' to Bertie. Whether Vincent and the panel were completely partisan, I dont know. Vincent has a love-hate relationship with FF ever from the Haughey years, etc.

With RTE aying, "most commentators agreeing that Bertie Ahern won overall" is still misleading and a false claim if ever there was one.

RTE should re-write their story, and if I was FG, I would be livid about what they have written.

I have nothing to do with FG by the way ......

Redspider

redspider

redspider wrote:

RTE have changed their headline to "Pundits declare Ahern debate winner". This is still misleading to me because I have yet to see a list of pundits and their declaration one way or the other as to who was the winner or not. Their own TV programme last night was very much a draw based on the mere 2 pundits there, although I have heard that the Vincent Browne radio programme 'gave it' to Bertie. Whether Vincent and the panel were completely partisan, I dont know. Vincent has a love-hate relationship with FF ever from the Haughey years, etc.

As I posted earlier even VB gave it to Bertie-see the post for details.

Most of todays papers also gave it to Bertie which might be the pundits RTE online is referring to.
As per the above post I linked and this post I'm not entirely convinced.

nollaig

have to agree there...and add another punch for bertie- Ahern really made a joke of Fine Gaels 2300 extra hospital beds imo. Kennt didnt seem to know his figures at all[/i]

Am i the only one who thinks Kenny was good on health?

From the health part of the debate, i got this impression.

Both Ahern & Kenny agreed on the 2.4 billion figure.

Kenny said that out of that the first priority will be 2300 extra beds. This to me is fair enough. From news reports etc. extra beds do seem to be one of the top priorities in the health service.

Ahern was saying that by providing the 2300 beds, then you sacrifice other thongs (forget the details). From what he was saying I got the impression that Fianna Fail were going to give money to almost everyone, but not enough money to any of them.

Fine Gael seemed to be saying, lets sort out priority 1 first, then sort out the next thing. etc.

Fine Gael's approach seems like the best to me.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

brianthebard

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

This is why we need SF, so that everyone has the same rights and then men can get cancer!

murphaph

The debate was rubbish but to be quite honest (after voting FF last time) the cummulative effect of FF in government for 10 years had decided my vote already. Kenny could have come in naked and I'd still be voting for FG/LAB to get FF out. Neither of those two would be an 'inspirational' Taoiseach. I believe though that Kenny is still FG's weak spot-they have better and it's a pity he's leader. I think he's competent but he doesn't convince you.

Lennoxschips

At least he doesn't act like a bully.

ateam

What viewers did the show get?

Edit: read on rte site that an average of 835,000 viewers tuned in last night, at one point 1.2 million viewers were watching it. Inevitable therefore, that the show will have an electoral impact.

Jackz

murphaph wrote:

The debate was rubbish but to be quite honest (after voting FF last time) the cummulative effect of FF in government for 10 years had decided my vote already. Kenny could have come in naked and I'd still be voting for FG/LAB to get FF out. Neither of those two would be an 'inspirational' Taoiseach. I believe though that Kenny is still FG's weak spot-they have better and it's a pity he's leader. I think he's competent but he doesn't convince you.

I agree Fg do have better than Enda Kenny; Richard Bruton, but he is the only one. Are Hayes or O' Keeffe for example minister material?