Who wants to explain the Tuiseal Guineadach?

Corruptedmorals

I know what it does, I haven't a clue where to apply it and the rules governing it. It wrecks my essays. So yeah, an explanation would be nice..

Thanks.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

It's the Genetive form of nouns. One uses it when there is a possessive realtionship between nouns.

To really understand it,you're going to want to have a ery good idea of the declensions of nouns, the rules governing pluralising etc. etc. It's one of the most complex aspects of the language.

You can get more info here:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~eofeasa/level04/ceacht404/miniu/404c.htm

cocoa

The tuiseal ginideach or genitive case should be used in all cases where the english word "or" should occur and in other miscellaneous cases where two nouns follow each other.

examples include:
the end of the day : deireadh an lae
the break of day : breacadh an lae

note on verbs:
most people have become used to translating verb nouns (ending in -ing) to irish by adding ag at the start and adh at the end. However the genitive must always follow:
playing football : ag imirt peile

also, watch out for certain prepositions which incur the genitive. In general any preposition consisting of two words is in fact a preposition and a noun, therefore the next noun must be in the genitive:
after the work: i ndiaidh na hoibre

Corruptedmorals

Thanks, makes a good bit more sense now.

JC 2K3

A loose definition of it is that it shows posession.

It applies in these circumstances:
-Two nouns coming together
Examples: hata an fhir, gúna na mná

-After a present participle( -ing in English "ag ..." in Irish)
Examples: ag déanamh na hoibre, ag tiomáint gluaisteáin

-After a réamhfhocal comhshuite(basically a preposition and a noun, for example: ar son, i leith, ar nós etc. This isn't strictly a "rule", as the second word is a noun and you'd be using the ginideach anyway, but it's easy to forget so that's why I'm including it)
Examples: ar son na ndaoine, i ndiaidh na hArdteiste

-After trasna, chun, cois, timpeall, fearacht and tar éis
Examples: transna an bhóthair, timpeall an tí, tar éis na bliana

Aard

I think all these compound prepositions and verbal nouns are too complicated. As cocoa mentioned, they're just nouns in fancy circumstances.

"Ag imirt peile" - Think of this as "at the playing of football". It might sound awkward in English, but it's the best way of remembering the rules as it does away with "verbal noun".

Same for compound prepositions: "Ar feadh bliana" - "A year long", or more intuitively, "for the length of a year.

Also, jimmeh, "ag tiomáint ghluaisteáin" is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong! First you don't put in séimhiús and now you have them in every nook and cranny (well, one). Díomách.

JC 2K3

How is it wrong?

I always used "ag fáil bháis"(confirmed correct by De Bháldraithe's foclóir) as a reference point.

spudington16

JC 2K3 wrote:

How is it wrong?

I always used "ag fáil bháis"(confirmed correct by De Bháldraithe's foclóir) as a reference point.

That's quite wrong. Verbal nouns DO cause the TG, but you only include a séimhiú in masculine singular if there is an "an" between it...

eg. trua an bháis;
ACH ag fáil báis.

The obvious except to this is when the DNTLS Rule comes into play; if one noun ends with the letter D, N, T, L or S and the next word begins with D, N, T, L or S then a séimhiú can't occur.

JC 2K3

Emphasis on "confirmed correct by De Bháldraithe's Foclóir".

Also: http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=dying

I acknowledge that it does not seem right, but it is.

I'm willing to admit at this stage, however, that it probably should be "ag tiomáint gluaisteáin".

Odd that it's "ag fáil bháis" though, and even odder that I had that as my reference point when it seems to be an obscure exception.

EDIT: Google tells me that in old Irish the word following a word in the tuiseal tabhartach uatha(eg. any verbal noun) took a "h", but this has been lost in modern usage, apart from in Donegal apparently. However, some phrases like "ag fáil bháis" have retained the "h" universally.