Will we get the government we deserve?

DarkJager

DarkJager wrote:

I'm not saying they were brilliant then, but they certainly were not as bad as they are now.

You are seriously arguing that healthcare was better in the 60s?

Come off it.

DarkJager wrote:

a majority of the population who actually do enjoy to smoke.

Source for that contention please.

DarkJager wrote:

But they have let it get so out of control

Please define 'out of control' with specific reference to changes in the rates over the past 10 years. Do you want me to show you the rates then and now to enable a comparison be made?

cm2000

Floppybits wrote:

I am kinda leaning toward FG/Lab due to the fact that they are actually putting across policies. FF and PD's have only been negative campaigning.

thats just untrue. read the ff/pd manifestos if you want to know what they offer. where fg/lab want 2300 hospital beds ff/pd want 1000 released to the public through colocation. ff want 16000 gardai on the streets, stopping stamp duty for 1st time buyers, increaesing spending on r and d. these points were all raised at the debate and there has been as much nagativity from the alternative.

wow sierra

DarkJager wrote:

The smoking ban affected a majority of the population who actually do enjoy to smoke. Were we asked in a public vote whether we wanted a ban on smoking? Of course not, the government just made up our minds for us.

Wow your attitude to this defies belief - the smoking ban effected EVERYONE.

It is one of the best pieces of legislation in years - can you not even see the irony of criticising the Government for not improving health and in the same post criticising one of the best health improvement policies in years.

My health was being adversly effected for years by second hand smoke - noone consulted me on that. Anyway if there was a poll now on whether the smoking ban was a good thing I reckon it would be over 90% approval.
Pick your fights better:)

joecoote

I've said if before, I say it again: It's the economy, stupid. People aren't voting for what the government did right or wrong in the past. They aren't voting for services. They're going to vote for the party that helps them pay their bloated mortgages.

If people were voting for a party who was going to provide a better Ireland in the future, FF would be toast in Monaghan/Cavan. People have died because of the downgrading of Monaghan Hospital. This is documented. Monaghan people know they have to call a taxi if they have a heart attack. They won't survive the arrival of an ambulance and the trip to Cavan. They know this. They know that a leaked HSE document outlining the further downgrading of hospital services in Monaghan, Cavan and Louth are scheduled for July of this year. People have marched. They have protested. They have set up committees. Come Thursay. FF will get at least 2 seats and probably top the first preference poll. Are people stupid? No. Come June they have a mortgage payment to make. The vast majority of people will not be going to hospital.

FF created the speculative property market and alot of people jumped onto it. They are saddled with their bloated mortgages and a party who they hope will keep the economy going so they can continue to pay their bloated mortgages. A win-win scenario for FF. You voted for them, but they got you.

oscarBravo

Can we continue this discussion in a less heated fashion? Ta.

Leon11

DarkJager wrote:

The smoking ban affected a majority of the population who actually do enjoy to smoke. Were we asked in a public vote whether we wanted a ban on smoking? Of course not, the government just made up our minds for us.

don't really have interest in anything else on this thread except that the government were entirely right to introduce the smoking ban. Not only were people who worked in that setting at greater risk of developing lung cancer but people who don't smoke were also endangered. Are you also saying that in a pub more than half are smokers? I think your fooling yourself there.

For what it's worth i hope you enjoy smoking outside.

gbh

So we are going to elect a government on the basis of someone being a better debater or rather bluffer?

And we will forget the scandalous waste of public money, the health system, the ridiculously over priced houses, the builders making a fortune, the property speculators running riot, I could go on and on, but these are substantial issues which the electorate should focus on, not who seemed to win a TV debate. As far as I can see, FF wont change their spots and so expect more of the same into the future.

gbh

gbh wrote:

So we are going to elect a government on the basis of someone being a better debater or rather bluffer?

Not at all.

For me its because they have been better on the economy and the North than any FG/Labour Government I remember. Far better.

But we've done all this stuff before again and again and again and again in dozens of other threads on this forum. You say health and I say economy etc. etc. etc.

Milktrolley

DarkJager wrote:

The smoking ban affected a majority of the population who actually do enjoy to smoke.

I recall statistics that suggested the actual figure is in the region of about 25-30%. Seems to me that the majority of the population doesn't enjoy smoking.

By no means do I support FF by the way, just thought I'd add. Anyone that says Martin introduced the ban to take the focus off all the other health problems has a valid argument in my books. But it was, unquestionably, a good thing.

Back to the OP - only if people consider their vote and don't just make a last minute apathetic decision for the sake of it. It won't be the government everyone wants, but if people vote carefully then collectively we'll get what we deserve.

Milktrolley

Milktrolley wrote:

By no means do I support FF by the way, just thought I'd add. Anyone that says Martin introduced the ban to take the focus off all the other health problems has a valid argument in my books. But it was, unquestionably, a good thing.

Back to the OP - only if people consider their vote and don't just make a last minute apathetic decision for the sake of it. It won't be the government everyone wants, but if people vote carefully then collectively we'll get what we deserve.

A rational poster making a good point.

Get off this thread before we all corrupt you.

SeanW

Yes, I agree that we get the government we deserve. Everyone else voted for FF last time, and look what we have now - a strikebound health service, worse traffic jams and urban sprawl, a stagnating economy with high inflation, and a bunch of other problems.

Fianna Fail are out of touch. Most of them have spent so long being pampered as Taoiseach or various ministers that they've forgotten what its like to be an ordinary pleb.

One area where FF incompetence has hit me badly is in the area of driver licensing. I'm on a provisional ATM, having a test booked since last September, with no sign of it to materialise. Because of this, my license is no good for anything outside Ireland, I can't legally drive on motorways, I can't get a decent insurance quote. Also I'm jobseeking ATM and have lost count of all the jobs I was interested in but required "Full clean driving license."

In other countries, stuff like this just works but here, with FF in power for the last 10 years, getting a driving license is like a bureacratic reenactment of "Waiting for Godot." It's beyond insane but most FF senior people are chauffered around in Mercs, helicopters and government jets all the time, so you can't expect them to take this problem seriously can we? That's why the Minister for Photo Opportunities decided to throw €10M at the "backlog" this year, and only recently has a contract been signed for a once-off 100,000 private tests.

If you want competent government voting for FF is like a turkey voting for Christmas. But if you want a government full of muppets, take you pick.

gbh

I suppose there are other threads which cover these topics. But I think the thread title poses a specific question, that is, will the people be swayed or carried along by the hype surrounding the promises not just of the current government and I want to be fair on this as well, but by all parties.

I think the important thing is not promises but delivery. And on that basis, its fairly clear that FF/PDs have had 10 years in the best of times to put public services right and to ensure that people can put a roof over their head and they have failed to deliver these services. There is also the question of this country moving away from Republican values under this government and towards a more hierarchical society as espoused by PD/FF policy. This means that the gap between rich and poor increases on a yearly basis and the PDs see no problem with this, whereas I think most people should see a problem with this. But maybe I won't say too much more on this and let people form their own opinions.

Victor Meldrew

sean_keevey wrote:

Our public health service is perfectly adequate. We do have a situation where people end up on trollies waiting to be seen, but this if anything is healthy in a centrist democracy. We do not want to have a situation where everyone falls back onthe state, because if this was the case, our social welfare system would collapse. Having the imperfect system that we do provides an incentive for people to use private health care if they can afford it. This eases the burden on the state and provided for a much healthier economy. Every one is still entitled to free state health care, but the people who work for money to pay for better health care can have it.

God help you if you ever get sick, these words will come back to haunt you.

You will find that even on VHI plan E there is little in the way of emergency treatment for you. i'm a private patient, and to get admitted to hospital i have to sit in A&E and wait for 5-8 hours. This is in the hospital my both Consultants works in. I don't have a trivial illness. I don't really care who bankrolls Bertie, but I do care about potenitally DYING in A&E.

Thank you Sean, Your post is one of the most offensive I have read here, and the best reason NOT to vote FF :mad:

Money Shot

sean_keevey wrote:

Crime is a problem that is always going to exist.

Our public health service is perfectly adequate. We do have a situation where people end up on trollies waiting to be seen, but this if anything is healthy in a centrist democracy. We do not want to have a situation where everyone falls back onthe state.

This is typical of the Fianna Fail stance on Crime and Health. Sure there's crime everywhere, we just need to embrace it and live with it. Do Fianna Failer's really think the Health service is adequate ?

I'm not sure what bubble you live in, but you are way out of touch with the many ill people and victims of crime that are left angry and frustrated by their dealings with the public service provided. I totally agree with the above poster - your post is the best reason not to vote for FF.

I too pay VHI, and have had to wait the best part of a day to get sorted.

Glenbhoy

Deleted User wrote:

And that never happened in the 60s? Or the 70s? The 80s were great times for health, were they? Did it never happen in the 90s??

I think the poster's point is that we are awash with money now as opposed to the other time periods mentioned. I cannot comment on those time periods as I've been here less than a decade, but let's face it, the health is pretty poor here.
I agree to a large extent with the OP, it's quite funny, people moan so much in this country, think of all the various whinge's we've been listening to for the last 2/3 years:
health
education
transport
housing
stealth taxes
crime
and probably many more, some of them are important to me, some aren't, but there are certainly people out there for whom at least one of the issues is extremely important, and yet, what are the majority going to do about it? They're going to vote in the people who've had 10yrs worth of opportunities to make a difference to these complaints!! Now, I have no idea as to whether or not the rainbow coalition would make a difference, but surely they deserve a chance - i personally can't see that they could do worse.
There are obviously reasons as to why people may vote to retain FF (PD'S will form no part of the next administration) in some form or other, people feel that the economy will be in better hands, i cannot see the basis for that - i think Bertie's recent behaviour (and not his financial misdemeanours - which will still probably be the end of him) has been ridiculous, a safe pair of hands, my hole!! The stamp duty flip-flop and the reduction of the top rate of income tax in the last budget being 2 prime examples.
In general though, does anyone out there believe that this economy is not headed for a severe shock - once more the question would have to be asked, who got us into this position? I mean, can anyone think of why we might now be in a situation wherein 15% of our GNP is created by the construction sector?
Between all the parties we might be able to form a decent government, i'd have rabbitte, cowen, brian lenehan, howlin, bruton, quinn, brennan for starters, maybe we'll have to form some sort of 'wartime cabinet' in the years ahead.
Anyway, next time I'm in a cab and the driver starts his f**king moaning about whatever the media's pet crisis may be then, I know what my response will be, "I don't give a f**k mate" - i'll be alright whoever takes over, I know that, but this is the last time i'll entertain any moaning or whinging from the rest of ye!! Social responsibility, not for me, certainly not anymore.

Victor Meldrew

Deleted User wrote:

You say health and I say economy etc. etc. etc.

Economy...?

Right so, we don't have to "take the boat" but that is not down to FF, it's a global thing, but the mismanagment of ireland's labour cost base has decimated our manufacturing base. Economic growth driven on foregin labour is not sustainable, and that's before you look at the dross that passes for "homes" in Dublin's M50-land.

We've been living this "boom" for 5 years and we are no better off in reality. So the economy arguement is hubris :mad:

Victor Meldrew

Victor Meldrew wrote:

we are no better off in reality.

I completely disagree.

In reality we are financially far better off. I won't bore you with mind numbing stats about how everyone got richer over the past 10 years, some more than others - I'm sure you have flicked through The Pope's Children or similar literature at some stage...

HQvhs

It was in the Irish Times a few months ago that thanks to our high inflation we have only seen our spending power increase by 2.5% over the past 5 years.

SeanW

We're also the most expensive place in the Euro area to live, have the highest inflation, are one of, if not the most expensive places on Earth to do business. That's going to hit job creation/job replenishment. We need a safe pair of hands to get the economy back in shape. FF ain't it.

gbh

Well I think we are faced with a similar choice as the US in 2004 when they decided to re-elect George Bush. There was an opportunity for the US electorate to change policy by voting in a new president, but the baseless scare-mongering of republicans managed to convince the people to opt for more of the same. End result was, the people got more of the same...