The Viking presence in Ireland

Son Goku

Lirange wrote:

Tut-tut on the use of the term ethnicity! That's a cultural association not a biological one. Hence, we are a Celtic "ethnic group."

Sorry used the wrong term.

Lirange wrote:

So you would be referring to the Britons? The predecessors to the Celt culture in Britain and Ireland. That's reaching well back into history there as the Britons were indigenous to the Isles (I use that term loosely) for a long period of time (Technically we're all Africans you know). I'm always bemused by the idea of a race "evolving" at a specific place. It's about movement of people ... migrations.

Most of the current population in Iberia however is not descended from Britons. But rather emigrants from present day Italy, the Moors, and to a lesser extent Celts/Germanic tribes. The Basques of southern France and Northern Spain have been genetically linked to people in Britain particularly Cornwall/Wales.

No, I'm saying that the indigenious people of Ireland and Britain are the original (in the sense of inhabiting there before the great migrations) people of Iberia. I'm not saying anything about the peoples who currently live in Iberia, so the Moors have nothing to do with it.
Genetic Analysis indicates that our genetic group was displaced from Iberia and moved to here and at some point afterwards adopted Celtic culture, becoming a Celtic ethnic group as you say.
Basically the word Iberian is used in a completely different way by modern geneticists to refer to the "Basque" genetic group of which we are a member. Although it is confusing since Iberian usually refers to the people living there now and their post-Roman ancestors.

Ireland did not have the sort of sustained isolation (ie zero migrations) to claim anything close to racial purity.

But our genes are very pure, so what does that mean? Do you mean our genes only look pure because we are taking a mixed grouping as "pure".

that no European people are of one specific Indo-European origin only.

That's true, it's more so that our "basis" genes, which would be the genes of the people who first arrived here, have gone largely unchanged because they are so dominant.

I'm enjoying this conversation, it's possible I've left something out or more so we might be talking past eachother as I'm talking about the movement of genes and genes can be a bit oblivious to the meanderings of history.
Basically what I'm saying is that it's surprising that despite the Vikings, Normans, Celts, e.t.c. who came here we are still mainly the people who arrived here from Iberia 9,000 (or so) years ago.

Lirange

Son Goku wrote:

That's true, it's more so that our "basis" genes, which would be the genes of the people who first arrived here, have gone largely unchanged because they are so dominant.

I wouldn't say unchanged. I would say persistent ... as it remained the most prevalent gene type.

Son Goku wrote:

I'm enjoying this conversation, it's possible I've left something out or more so we might be talking past eachother as I'm talking about the movement of genes and genes can be a bit oblivious to the meanderings of history.
Basically what I'm saying is that it's surprising that despite the Vikings, Normans, Celts, e.t.c. who came here we are still mainly the people who arrived here from Iberia 9,000 (or so) years ago.

True. I'm just attempting to clarify that the most prevalent gene marker doesn't negate the existence of genetic variety. For example, if 78% of the population show the presence of a certain gene type it doesn't mean that 78% of each individual's genetic make-up is composed of that gene type ... as Sykes and Oppenheimer often point out. In a recent University of London study geneticists discovered great variety on the genetic tapestry within Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, and Scotland. Ireland's particular genetic mix is not quite the same as Wales and not quite the same as Scotland. There exists a different mix of inputs in these areas.

Take a look at the maps in the link I provided in my previous post. Notice that the outward gene expression in Ireland and Scotland differs from that in Cornwall and Wales. It's true that we can't get caught up too much in appearance but even Geneticists do surveys to compliment their lab work. Ireland has some of the highest rates of blue/green/grey eyes in Britain/Ireland. Cornwall and Wales have the lowest.

Does this look like racial homogeneity to you?

Irish fella #1

Irish Fella #2


The Univ of London Geneticists discovered many gene types in Britain and Ireland. The population of Britain and Ireland is mainly a mixture of: Picts, Gaels/Britons (Irish, Scotti, Manx, Cymry Cumbric, Cymry Breizhoneg, Cymraeg & Kernewek), Anglo-Saxons: Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Frisians & Geets, Scandinavian Haethen-Vikings: Danes, Norwegian. Normans: Scandinavian Vikings. The study did identify the presence of Scandinavian genes in Ireland but did not cite the distribution of this genetic marker. The study areas included Wexford, Wicklow, Dublin, Meath and Louth in the East and Clare, Galway, and Mayo in the West.

Throughout the centuries intermixing of people was necessary for survival. Studies show that rare cases of prolonged genetic isolation in EurAsia could be catastrophic. Obviously with the spread of diseases and/or hereditary afflictions too much homogeneity is not a good thing.

Sufferers of MS may have a "viking gene" to blame. The disease afflicts mainly those in Northern Europe, particularly those with descendants from Scandinavia. Scandinavia has the highest rate followed closely by Scotland. However the Sammi peoples of northern Scandinavia and the Inuit of North America are not affected by MS so it is not climate or latitude related. The Scots, and then the Irish have much higher rates than Cornwall and Wales where MS is more rare. It occurs in the North of Germany but is much rarer in France, Southern Germany, and the rest of Southern and Central Europe.

Norwayviking

O'Leprosy wrote: »

If the Viking woman of today want to come and invade us - I'm all for it ( only the women mind ).

Thats probably all it takes anyway lol.The men can have a beer and watch instead

owenc

karen3212 wrote: »

I know what you mean, but the Y gene in males is passed with only little changes(mostly due to damage), so apparently they can tell. Really they can. I don't know how but there are markers.

I don't know who was attacking wales, but they really got us back when they sent the Norman Welsh Strongbow, he was our downfall, the ba**ard.

So does that mean my blood would be coming from my own family surname currently? I thought that you got your looks from all the families joint together not just the one of your father, though i do find that i look more like my fathers family, we all have a same colour of eyes and hair, i look the spit of my cousin! Now they are saying that my family originates in normandy as i guess but i think thats wrong (they seem to think every family in britain came over in the bloody norman conquest!) as i found a person with my surname in scotland in 991ad, i think they are norse not norman!

owenc

odonnell wrote: »

Well thats actually been proven to be a sure sign that youve got scandinavian genes - more often than not! Im not an ignorant who thinks all swedes are blonde by the way - to anyone thinking we follow stereotypes on these boards! But certainly there are traits which can, more oft than not, be traced or used as a marker.

Scotland has a long line of Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian settlers, though the Danish settled and raided more on the East coast of England. We tended to have settler tribes, or raiding parties who settled and traded - evidence of which has now been found on both coasts of Scotland AFAIK. Interestingly the people of the Shetland isles still think of themselves as more Norse than Scots. Annual boat burnings take place in some parts too, solstice and equinox are observed...... wee things like that. In central Scots English and in Swedish/Norwegian/Danish and Dutch too - there are MANY words which are the same....

I can only imagine the same could be said for Ireland??? (youll have to excuse me i dont know my Irish history at all)

Would scotland not be more norse? Theres a girl in my class and i'm almost certain that she has Scottish/norse blood her eyes are pure blue, her hair is pure white/blond and her face is pure white, she looks so norse its freaky i've never seen anyone like that in my life!

owenc

mountainyman wrote: »

The most noticeable result is the other way. The genetic makeup of Icelanders is 40% irish.

MM

Iceland aye right, irish people think everysingle person in the world has got bloody irish blood in them for god sake!:rolleyes:

owenc

odonnell wrote: »

heres a good wee link for a bit of reading for anyone who might be interested.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/828453.stm

Its only a short read, i saw the documentary on TV a few of years back and they went all over the UK taking swabs from mens mouths. Turned out that a staggering amount of families on the west coast of Scotland retained viking geneaology. Common traits were (unsurprisingly) red or orange hair and a family history of Jupitons Contractions.

I dont know if this study was extended to Ireland though id say it would turn up the same results. I think something like this has already been done in Dublin though yes? Does anyone have a link?

Hmm, i'd have thought that the North East coast of scotland would've had more norse (is that viking?) connections because of its proximity to norway, theres something about their accent as well, i don't know what it is but it definately sounds more norse...

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

Iceland aye right, irish people think everysingle person in the world has got bloody irish blood in them for god sake!:rolleyes:

True for once.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287529/

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

So does that mean my blood would be coming from my own family surname currently? I thought that you got your looks from all the families joint together not just the one of your father, though i do find that i look more like my fathers family, we all have a same colour of eyes and hair, i look the spit of my cousin! Now they are saying that my family originates in normandy as i guess but i think thats wrong (they seem to think every family in britain came over in the bloody norman conquest!) as i found a person with my surname in scotland in 991ad, i think they are norse not norman!

Norman means Northman or Norseman. The Norman conquest of Britain is thought to be more of a military "elite" take over. With the other groups already there having a Scandinavian background (Saxons thought to be more Southern Denmark) may have made it easier.

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

Norman means Northman or Norseman. The Norman conquest of Britain is thought to be more of a military "elite" take over. With the other groups already there having a Scandinavian background (Saxons thought to be more Southern Denmark) may have made it easier.

Oh right.

mithril

owenc wrote: »

Iceland aye right, irish people think everysingle person in the world has got bloody irish blood in them for god sake!:rolleyes:

Not an expert on the subject in any way myself but I visited Iceland recently.
In their National Museum, they claim that gene analysis indicates that the male line is overwhelmingly Norse while the female line is in fact as high as 60% "Celtic" in origin. However, the female stock is thought to originate predominately from the Hebrides rather than Ireland.

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

Oh right.

A bit of background.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo

brianthebard

Off topic + 3 year vamp = locked thread.