advice for long distance cycling

conor rowan

hey this is my first post on this forum, but im just looking for general advice for long distance cycling. myself and 2 friends are cycling from dublin to beijing to raise money for charity (ok i may have undersold the long distance aspect). we're going to raise money for 2 charities and support our friend david gillick who's competing in the olympics (the website is www.biketobeijing2008.com or biketobeijing2008.bebo.com ).
the thing is none of us have any real experience in cycling apart from in and out of college/work.were all in reasonable shape, the 2 lads play football and i do martial arts.


anyway the type of advice im looking for is
1. with regard to training- we feel we dont need to do some but not overtrain as we're not trying to set any speed records but its still a considerable distance
2. bike maintenance and tuning
-we've gone with hybrids specifically 20" trek fx 7.3,
-any advice on simple things like saddle height, I'm roughly 5'9" but the other 2 lads are 6'.
-are there any bike maintenance courses/manuals which are better than the rest
-what type of saddle do you recommend etc
3. clothing
-what type of gear and how much should we need etc
4. general advice

we have most of the details thrashed out but its always worthwhile getting a few opinions. anyway have a look at the website which has all the details and let me know what you think.
has anyone done anything else similiar?

Blowback

H,
Get the book by the Japanese guy who cycled the other to Dublin for a pint of Guinness and ther you will find what you are letting yourself in for.Sorry forget the name of it but I am sure some one here will give you best advice.

Chips Lovell

Hi Conor,
I do a fair bit of long distance cycling, but its all training for stuff like the Wicklow 200. People with experience of cycle touring might have some good advice. For what it's worth:

1. If you're only commuting, then some training would be good, namely long distance rides. You'll be working not only on building up a bit of stamina, but also just getting used to spending that amount of time on the bike and all the attendent aches and pains that comes with it. While you're training, work on your pedalling cadence. A lot of inexperienced riders tend to pedal too slowly. Your legs will last longer, pedalling a bit quicker, but in a lower gear.

2. I've heard good things about Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance. Sheldon Brown's site has lots of useful information too. Aside from puncture repair, you should think about brake maintenance and derailleur adjustment and truing wheels. Your saddle should be high enough that your leg is almost fully extended on the downstroke. You'll get the best power transfer this way. As for saddles themselves, a lot of people think a big cushy saddle is the way to go for long stretch, but narrow saddles usually work best. You need to be able to rest your sit bones on it, but it can't be too soft that they don't sink totally in and put pressure on your more delicate parts and restrict the blood flow. Too wide a saddle and it will chafe a bit.

3. Almost as important as the saddle is a good pair of shorts. Good shorts will have a nice bit of padding which retains shape. If you're cycling that much, then saddle cream might also be a good idea for keeping saddle sores away. Also washing your shorts every night is vital to stave off sores. For warm weather, a cycling jersey is a good. The fabric allows sweat to evaporate quickly and the pockets are handy for stashing food and stuff. For colder weather, I like to wear a long sleeve base layer underneath. I actually use the Canterbury rugby ones as they're a bit warmer than the cycling ones. You can get tights to put on over your shorts to cover your legs. Even colder weather, I tend to go for a cycling jacket, which is very warm, with wind-proof panels. Rain gear is a tricky prospect. I never bother with it because its too sweaty. You can get light rain jackets that are small enough to roll up and stick in your pocket. Gloves are also useful. They stop you getting blisters from the bars, but also, if you fall, you tend to stick your hand out and can lose a lot of skin if you're not wearing them.

4. As for other stuff, you'll be cycling through a shed load of countries and you'll need to have all your visas sorted.

beans

I would recommend "The complete book of long-distance cycling" by Edmund Burke. They should have copies in Hodges Figgis or Amazon.

It's pretty self-explanatory, and should be a good start if you're looking for reading material.

Titiritero

conor rowan wrote:

1. with regard to training- we feel we dont need to do some but not overtrain as we're not trying to set any speed records but its still a considerable distance
2. bike maintenance and tuning
-we've gone with hybrids specifically 20" trek fx 7.3,
-any advice on simple things like saddle height, I'm roughly 5'9" but the other 2 lads are 6'.
-are there any bike maintenance courses/manuals which are better than the rest
-what type of saddle do you recommend etc
3. clothing
-what type of gear and how much should we need etc
4. general advice

Ha, ha, this is hilarious. Just been to your website and I happen to work just 2 metres away from Steve, I´m going to tell him tomorrow! And he was keeping it so quiet!

About your questions, I´ve done a lot of cycletouring (including in China), but never longer than 3 weeks, so you´ll probably encounter new issues to deal with, but in my humble knowledge:

1. training: as you say, the best thing about cycling is that you get fit on the way, so as long as you start easy and increase the distance every day, you´ll be fine. The only training required is to get your ass used to the saddle in your new bikes, so as long as you use the bike frequently before the departure date, you´ll be fine

2. bike maintenance and tuning: the saddle has to be at a height that your leg is streched, but not completely, when the pedal is at the farthest distance from the saddle. Check with some bike clubs that organise mechanic courses for their members periodically. Otherwise, just go to a bike shop and ask them if they do them, or let you stay there for a couple of days just "watching them" work

3. clothing: my rule is to bring 3 of each (t-shirts, socks, etc). You wear one, another is dirty, and the other is drying. Better to be short than long, you can always buy on the way (and probably cheaper).

4. general advice: Again, try to travel light. Try to learn before you go how to dismantle most of the parts of the bike and be abled to mount them back again. Traffic in China is crazy, loads of new drivers still getting used to their spanking cars. A good way to get by is having a Mandarin phrase book you can show to people, as getting the pronunciation right is nearly impossible.

If I think of anything else, I´ll tell Steve tomorrow! Very jealous of your adventure, by the way!

blorg

Number one thing you all need to start doing is multi-day touring ASAP.

Training days in Wicklow are fine for building up fitness but sort of beside the point.

So you really need to look at doing multi-day/week+ tours as preperation, where everyone has a rack etc. and you are carrying everything you need.

Cycling around Ireland camping would be a very good start.

You really should have several multi-week tours under your belt before you head off on this. It will give you the best idea of what you need to bring (less) and what the issues are.

In terms of the smaller things, any of you holding off lycra shorts get them now, they really are more comfortable over the long haul. And get bar-ends, they give you a better range of hand positions.

daymobrew

/me looked at some of the photos.
I wonder would clipless pedals be a good idea? I have SPDs on my commute bike and they are great.
Gloves would be good too. I'd recommend helmets and bright, reflective clothing.

beans

Have you given thought to what happens if one of you breaks a chain / frame / leg in some remote part of Durkistan? Presumably there is going to be some kind of support vehicles along for the ride?

It's an awesome undertaking, fair play. If you have everything in place re: food, shelter, medical and techical support, I'm sure you'll reach Beijing! It's just my hunch here, but I reckon the planning and not the training will be where things are more likely to go wrong.

Raam

daymobrew wrote:

I wonder would clipless pedals be a good idea? I have SPDs on my commute bike and they are great.

second on the clipless pedals, assuming you haven't already invested in some. SPDs are the right way to go, as some of the shoes offer a recessed cleat which make walking in them easy peasy.

They are very easy to get used to and make pedaling easier and more efficient.

conor rowan

hey lads, thanks for all the advice, some of it seems pretty good eg about cadence and isthankfully exposig the crater sized gaps in my knowledge. will definitely start reading some of that literature.
im in the middle of exams at the moment so training wont start for 2 weeks now, i plan to start off doing day trips around wicklow, working up to doing some multi trips-more for getting used to the bike and whats essential as opposed to any meaningful fitness work.

as for support vehicles etc, we dont have any-so anything breaks we have to fix it, thats one of the reasons we got steel frame bikes,in case we may have to employ the local welder. our gear is being supplied by lowe alpines, so hopefully they'll give us some decent stuff-will prob have a better idea by mid august as to what i prefer!

just one specific question, one of the lads paul is 6' on a 20" frame and has the saddle pretty high above the handle bars-is this normal/gonna affect him in the long term?
as for the clip on peddles/shoes, we're debating that among ourselves at the moment, trying to decide whether the hasslle of carrying special shoes and one more component thats more likely to break vs the extra gain in efficiency.

thanks for all the advice lads
conor

conor rowan

beans wrote:

It's just my hunch here, but I reckon the planning and not the training will be where things are more likely to go wrong.

too right, cant wait to finish up with the fundraising and visas and crap and just get on the bike!!!

Raam

conor rowan wrote:

just one specific question, one of the lads paul is 6' on a 20" frame and has the saddle pretty high above the handle bars-is this normal/gonna affect him in the long term?

you could get yourselves fitted for your bike in Cycleways. I got it done a while ago for 30 quid.

conor rowan wrote:

as for the clip on peddles/shoes, we're debating that among ourselves at the moment, trying to decide whether the hasslle of carrying special shoes and one more component thats more likely to break vs the extra gain in efficiency.

You can get shoes which would be suitable for normal wear. They just look like trainers but have a recessed sole for where the cleat attaches. My bro' has a pair of Specialized which are quite comfortable. As for breaking a cleat/pedal, you can get pedal systems which can be used with or without cleats, i.e. you don't have to clip in and can use them as a normal platform pedal. Maybe some more experienced tourists can offer better advice here?

el tel

Durkadurkastan indeed!

http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:Bad_jokes_and_other_deleted_nonsense/Durkadurkastan

It's a long trek at 334 days duration. What blorg says is great advice - you need to get some practice trips in and tackle them in the same way you'd do the real journey. It's the only way to hone down your equipment and fine-tune your approach. Also, it will give you a better feeling for how your team is likely to perform together when things get a little trying so-to-speak. It's going to be a super tough journey and while I appreciate you intend to reach Beijing for the Olympics it's not a trip I'd embark in September if I had the choice.

Chips Lovell

Another thing to think about it nutrition. When you're riding all day, you need to keep snacking away to avoid the dreaded bonk.

Tim Moore's French Revolutions is a good read. He decides to cycle the Tour de France route himself, with minimal training and experience. It's a good laugh, but you may not pick up a huge amount of practical tips.

Ghost Rider

What's "the dreaded bonk"?

Something that happens after a bad debs?

el tonto wrote:

Another thing to think about it nutrition. When you're riding all day, you need to keep snacking away to avoid the dreaded bonk.

Tim Moore's French Revolutions is a good read. He decides to cycle the Tour de France route himself, with minimal training and experience. It's a good laugh, but you may not pick up a huge amount of practical tips.

Morgan

Some random thoughts:
Clips and straps may be better for this kind of journey than clipless pedals. If your shoes/pedals wear out it should be easier to get replacements.

You should be confident doing full maintenance on your bikes and have appropriate spares with you (spokes, tubes, tyres, bolts, duct tape).

You should be 100% comfortable on the bike. Minor discomforts can become major problems after a few 100 miles. I'd recommend a Brooks leather saddle (with springs if you can stand the weight) - very comfortable over long distances.

You mentioned you have steel bikes which can be repaired/welded - make sure your racks are steel too as they're more likely to fail. Try Tubus racks etc.

You could probably pick up a lot of tips here:
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/

Raam

Ghost Rider wrote:

What's "the dreaded bonk"?

the bonk is when all your energy stores are depleted.
Scientifically: it's when your glycogen stores run out
Real world: you feel totally f**ked

Edit: grammar

conor rowan

el tonto wrote:

Another thing to think about it nutrition. When you're riding all day, you need to keep snacking away to avoid the dreaded bonk.

this was going to be my next line of questioning,recently finished reading lance armstrongs first book and started to seriously think about food and snacks.I expect to lose several stone over the cycle!!:D

blorg

conor rowan wrote:

as for support vehicles etc, we dont have any-so anything breaks we have to fix it, thats one of the reasons we got steel frame bikes,in case we may have to employ the local welder.

Trek 7.3 FXs are aluminum alloy, not steel. Going for steel tourers rather than the Treks was something I considered suggesting. Not just from the welding point of view, a steel tourer should be more comfortable over the long distances. TBH with something of this magnitude it's worth getting the bike right and I'd consider shelling out for something a bit better than the Treks. Decent steel tourers can cost a bit but also have the advantage of being unpopular and often not "looking" expensive. If you do go for a tourer (drop bars), I'd go for frame or bar-end mounted shifters, e.g. avoid STI which are difficult to fix in the field.

Note I had a series of Trek hybrids for many years, (7200 and 7300 FX) and toured on them, it's definately possible, just not absolutely ideal.

conor rowan wrote:

just one specific question, one of the lads paul is 6' on a 20" frame and has the saddle pretty high above the handle bars-is this normal/gonna affect him in the long term?

Generally 20" would be too small a bike for someone who is 6ft. Again, for something this big, it's worth getting the fit right. If you are willing to consider changing the bikes, make sure you get the fit done properly.

I love SPDs myself but for this I'd get straps which are very popular among long distance tourers. Some SPD shoes are somewhat walkable but TBH they are unlikely to be so much so as to do as your only shoe - and it's another thing to break. Straps are a definate though.

Titiritero

Considering the length of the trip, and the route, you should choose reliability and simplicity over any other consideration. Therefore, I´d recommend:

-no spd pedals. As somebody said before, it´s an extra thing that can go wrong, and you need an extra set of shoes in your luggage (you can walk with those shoes, but not hike to a nearby mountain). Besides, if not set up properly (and you seem to already have setting problems with the saddle), it can cause serious injuries in your knees, as they are in the same position for thousands of kilometres.
-the bikes are alloy, not steel, as somebody already pointed out. They are not mountain bikes, but hybrids, so I would try to get slightly stronger rims than the ones from factory as they may collapse in the dirt tracks you will find, plus the added load factor on the rear wheel. Best is double wall, with 36 spokes, on good quality hubs, and a cassette setting (not sure if your bike has a freewheel block).
-the fact of having the saddle higher than the handlebar is normal, and even advisable, in most bikes, as that´s the best way to spread the weight over the 2 wheels. Considering the height of your friend, the bike should be a size 22".
-I´d add bar ends, for extra hand positions on the road, 2 bottle racks, and a stand can be handy when trying to park a loaded bike, but that´s more of a personal choice.
-for racks, no matter if you choose steel or aluminium, they eventually break on the unions. Go for the best you can afford. I´d recommend the ones that are not welded but attached together, like this, harder to fail (http://www.xxcycle.com/safari-iii,,en.php?www=en)
-panniers: Ortlieb, or the copies from Vaude or Deuter, are the business. Expensive, but reliable. Any other for this kind of trip will fail for sure.
-carry spares for everything you know how to fix (cassette, a few chains, spokes, etc).

So jealous!

Shaymoboy

Get a decent saddle....well worth spending extra cash on it. I would recommend a brooks one.

Best of luck

S

roadmanmad

Apart from cycling,

you will need planning on routes. Leaving the start location at the optimum time to get the best balance of weather on different continents.

Visas are an issue. Serious planning to avoid unnecessary delay at a god forsaken border.

Support structure and back up team. Ewan Mc Gregor did it on a motorbike last year(documentary on Sky TV earlier in the year.) He experienced all sorts of issues even with an excellent support structure.

You are undertaking something far tougher.

Good Luck.

beans

Just with regard to suggestions for saddles, bike upgrades etc - whatever you do change, make sure you've put in lots of training miles on them to make sure any changes work.

If you got a Brooks leather saddle one week before heading off, you wouldnt have time to break it in before heading off, and have a sore arse by the time you got out of France If you break it in before heading off, you'll be laughing all the way.

Same goes for pedals, bars etc etc. Be comfortable with them before you go.

kincsem

Some worrying photos of flat bar bikes on the website. I wouldn't use a flat bar bike for more that 30 miles. Good for a commute imo, but there is a greater range of hand positions on drops.
Use a narrow racing saddle to avoid inner-leg chafing. Cycling shorts are a must (can be under other trousers). Rain gear vital, you can get light jackets that will roll down to a Coke can size. A good range of climbing gears (MTB type). Plenty of spare cables / inner tubes. Smooth tyres at high pressure will roll better.

Ideally you want off-road gears with drop handlebars.

One or two quality cigarettes (from an open packet) to border guards often appreciated, in my experience, but not in front of superiors.

emact

Some links:

www.mark-ju.net
Good over all cycle touring advice

thorntree.lonelyplanet.com
Good source of latest info on visas, border crossings, road conditions, etc

If you were to use SPDs something like these might be useful:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=17263
These could be used with cycling shoes or normal shoes.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/
Good selection of useful accessories. Could be used to supply stronger wheels also.

Tyres: Schwalbe Marthon XR seem to get good reviews from all users. Cycleways stock Schwalbe tyres so they should be able to order them in for you.

Panniers: As mentioned previously, Ortlieb are the market leaders. Cycleways website is doing the Classics at good prices (over €20 cheaper than other shops)

Books: The Adventure Cycle-touring Handbook provides a good overview to cycle touring relevant to your trip. Available in Fingal libraries if you're a member.
The Essential Touring Cyclist by Richard Lovett is also worth reading.

Stove: MSR Whisperlite Internationale. Shouldn't have much problems finding fuel for this.

Don't think fitness is your biggest worry at this stage. You'll be fit after the first month on the road or earlier. I think your priorities should be figuring out the logistics of your route, the optimal equipment and how to maintain all equipment and bikes.

conor rowan

thanks for all the advice lads, sorry about the delay in getting back to you-just finished up exams there recently.so i'll bring you up to speed on where we're at at the moment.

route-
the route is now finished and we'll be more or less sticking to it give or take a few days for accidents/border problems etc.

bikes-
we're gonna go with the treks,Paul Maher in Centro gave us a great deal on them and after talking to a few people they seem to be relaible nad sturdy. roadwise the only area where we'll be hitting any bad quality roads is in kyryzstan.
we brought the bikes into cycleways yesterday and got the saddles measured to the right height, matt in there had a look at the bikes and gave them the green light, the wheels shoud last out provided we get them tuned before we leave every main city to keep them in shape-we were advised to seek out the oldest gnarled bike mechanic we could find as tuning spokes is an art form in itself:D
weve got bullbar ends to put on the handlebars to give ourselves a few different hand postions to make it more comfortable.
for the panniers we're gonna go with the ortilebs, by all accounts they seem the best to go for.
as for spd's, i think we're gonna go with them as the extra 11% efficiency is invaluable and will mean 1500km less we'll have to cycle over the whole trip. while there is a risk they'll break, it's small enough if we buy decent ones and is outweighed by the gain we'll get.
tyres- at the moment we're on bontranger race lite hardcase 700x32's, but we were looking at perhaps getting armadillos before we head off as ive heard that although slower theyre ultrareliable.has anyone else used these before?what are they like?
racks-we have cordo racks but we're not too sure about them, has anyone used these before, what are they like, are they reliable? we have yet to sit down and write out what we'l be bringing but as everything will be carried on the bikes i estimate us to be carrying around 40kgs each

thats all the questions i can think of for now, no doubt ill be back with a few more shortly

thanks
conor

Raam

conor rowan wrote:

tyres- at the moment we're on bontranger race lite hardcase 700x32's, but we were looking at perhaps getting armadillos before we head off as ive heard that although slower theyre ultrareliable.has anyone else used these before?what are they like?

I have a set for my road bike. They seem bomb-proof. Gone over plenty of bits of glass (not on purpose) and they are holding out. Remember to inspect 'em inside and out every now and then and pick out any bits of glass that are stuck in the rubber. It doesn't take long to do it (approx 10 mins a tyre including taking it off the wheel and putting it back on)

P

blorg

Seconded, definately get Armadillos, I got around 10,000km between punctures on a set. They are very very reliable, and not particularly slow for that matter, not so much you might notice.

Single-sided SPDs, e.g. that can use normal shoes on one side, are a good idea in case they do break, you will not want to cycle any distance using normal shoes+SPD pedals.

Bear in mind that with your distance you are probably going to have to replace several parts several times, not just the tyres (e.g. chain, cassette, chainrings) and probably worth plotting out some idea of at what points you might do this, e.g. plan ahead to replace the parts every X,000 km and work out where you might find a bike shop to do this.)

BTW, 40kgs is insane, this is why you need to get in some long distance touring practice. You'll have dumped most of it before you get out of France ;-) You do not need as much as you think you need.

I don't even think I would be looking to carry everything from the start, I'd go for whatever you need for X season and plan to dump and purchase for the next season as necessary.

Having said that these SPD sandals are really really good for cycling in spring/summer/autumn and really compact too. I got mine in Cycleways and use them for most of the year here, maybe March-October, more than I do actual shoes. Great for the rain too as very little to get wet and they dry out quickly.

conor rowan

blorg wrote:

BTW, 40kgs is insane, this is why you need to get in some long distance touring practice. You'll have dumped most of it before you get out of France ;-) You do not need as much as you think you need.

I don't even think I would be looking to carry everything from the start, I'd go for whatever you need for X season and plan to dump and purchase for the next season as necessary.

yea this was more of a ballpark figure,we havent set out what we plan to carry yet but we already have seperate camping gear and clothes for cold/warm season and will definitely be having a drop/collection point.

have started training a bit recently, we were down in mayo for a 21st at the weekend so we brought the bikes down with us a did a 100k cycle from claremorris to kem beach on the far side of achill, it finished up with a 1km long hill with varying 15-40 degree incline,it just seemed to stretch forever! admittedly the roll down the far side of it was very enjoyable. it took us 4hrs 20mins excluding breaks which we were happy enough with as this is the distance were planning to do 4 times a week on the trip. we figure going on the beer the night before at the 21st and only having 4 hrs sleep before starting off roughly equates to being well rested with panniers attached!:D
once we decide whether or not to stick witht the cordo racks or get different ones we'll start trainig with some weight on the bikes.

having preplanned bike tuning/replacing shops along the route seems a good idea and we'll look at factoring that into our route plans.

thanks for the advice lads, armadillos are def looking like the tyre of choice.
conor

Morgan

conor rowan wrote:

as for spd's, i think we're gonna go with them as the extra 11% efficiency is invaluable and will mean 1500km less we'll have to cycle over the whole trip.

blorg

conor rowan wrote:

with varying 15-40 degree incline

I think there is just a _little_ bit of exaggeration here, if you think about what a "40 degree incline" would actually look like

Seriously though, on the weight thing, 40kg is not just insane - it is orders off what you should be at. Are you including the bike in that?

My first long tour across Spain I did the same, brought far too much and ended up discarding/posting back most of it (although even then, nowhere near 40kg!) This is why a few long-distance tours are so important, they will solidify in your mind what you actually need and what you don't.