Is the alternative coalition suitable for our long term national transport strategy?

Irish and Proud

Is the alternative coalition of FG/Lab/Greens suitable for our long term national transport objectives? I for one don’t think so and here’s why:

1) Enda Kenny’s contract with the people of Ireland seems to be very selective, but more worryingly, has no reference to any specific transport development - not even the inter-urban motorways. If Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach, he is more than likely going to require Labour and the Greens. Now, the Greens policy is to honour all existing road contracts, but basically stop everything else subject to further analysis and reprioritisation. Bearing in mind that some interurban sections are not yet under contract, will this mean a half finished motorway network joined up with 2+1 sections on existing alignments? Also, with Labour on tow, money will be required to fund left wing ideologies which will put serious strain on any provision for major infrastructure projects - if there is any economic downturn over the next couple of years, you could almost certainly forget about the Dublin Rail Inter-connector and the Dublin Metro - both these projects will require billions in capital. Remember, there’s no reference to either of the above projects in Enda Kenny’s contract either. And that’s not to mention the LUAS proposals.

2) Going back to the interurban motorways, one has to remember how many years the current government has spent putting the parameters in place for the systematic rollout of these highways (design & build contracts, planning procedures etc). OK, the routes are behind schedule by 5 years or more, but most importantly, they are being done. For example, take the N4/N6 for Dublin to Galway - in 2003, work began on the 18 mile M4 Kilcock to Kinnegead section and was opened in Dec 2005. At that stage, the 18 mile Kinnegead to Kibeggan section of the N6 HQDC was underway. Now, the same section has just opened to traffic (May 2007). Last year, another 18 mile section of the N6 from Kilbeggan to Athlone has commenced and is now on course for completion in 2008. So, what this boils down to is that over 50 miles of the Dublin to Galway motorway/HQDC will be completed from start to finish in just five years, and that’s just one road!!! Look at the N8 Portlaoise to Cork now, not to mention the completion of the M1, M50 and M7 (Naas to Portlaoise) motorways - now that’s quite a long way from the bad old days!

3) If any of the highway rollout procedures or rail procurement schemes are stalled by the alternative coalition, such schemes would probably be prolonged for more than 5 years, even if the current government returned in 2012. Firstly, the momentum may have to be restarted (administrative structures, design teams, contractor’s etc) and the planning process recommenced (do road scheme approvals expire after 5 years?) after which the money mightn’t be there in the face of an economic downturn. :mad: That would be a shameful waste of an opportunity we currently have to get things done. Regarding all aspects of politics, this current government is far from perfect , but I certainly have no confidence in the alternative which is why I’ll be voting for FF and PD. Of course, we do want a proper health service etc, but that can only be funded by a sustainable economy of which proper infrastructure is a central part.

I'll leave it there for now!

segadreamcast

"Of course, we do want a proper health service etc, but that can only be funded by a sustainable economy of which proper infrastructure is a central part."

Would this be the proper infrastructure which, throughout your blatantly slanted post, you've managed to tacitly admit we've lacked thus far?

The present Government has failed during the last ten years to provide a worthwhile infrastructure - be it road, rail or telecom. This coalition or, for that matter, any other coalition, would have a better chance of getting more projects done on the following criteria:

ON TIME
ON BUDGET

The present Government has failed in several instances on both these criteria though post-2005 they have, I admit, tightened their belt in this regard.

Zoney

Irish and Proud wrote:

2) Going back to the interurban motorways, one has to remember how many years the current government has spent putting the parameters in place for the systematic rollout of these highways (design & build contracts, planning procedures etc). OK, the routes are behind schedule by 5 years or more, but most importantly, they are being done.

And if you think they would not be completed by the alternative govt. you are not living in reality and have been plugged into the Greens propaganda too much. The most the Greens will get to influence in govt. (*if* they are required at all by any prospective coalition) is perhaps some much needed focus on public transport, and similarly needed focus on sustainability (sensible development, energy conservation, etc - these things make financial sense for Ireland that imports so much of our energy needs; and should not be the exclusive preserve of eco-warriors)

The major point is that the interurbans are behind five years or more, and this is catastrophic because the next five years should have been available to complete some of the *other* routes - it isn't good enough to have a goat track between Limerick and Cork even if that route isn't as high priority as the interurbans.

now that’s quite a long way from the bad old days!

We're in 2007 with ten years of Celtic Tiger and still going. Surprisingly enough that means we can afford to actually build infrastructure now. The question is why more hasn't been done with the money in the last ten years, particularly in health and education. As regards transport the question should be how we've relatively little to show for the time and expenditure, even if the deliveries thus far look wonderful and marvellous to us used to goat-tracks (indeed there are many national primary roads that still are).

Irish and Proud

NoelRock wrote:

Would this be the proper infrastructure which, throughout your blatantly slanted post, you've managed to tacitly admit we've lacked thus far?

The present Government has failed during the last ten years to provide a worthwhile infrastructure - be it road, rail or telecom. This coalition or, for that matter, any other coalition, would have a better chance of getting more projects done on the following criteria:

ON TIME
ON BUDGET

The present Government has failed in several instances on both these criteria though post-2005 they have, I admit, tightened their belt in this regard.

I'm not exactly trying to say this government is brilliant, but there's no proper alternative available. With this in mind, I'm just saying that given that the country is on the verge of having a national motorway system plus an enhanced rail network, let's not throw a spanner in the works by putting in a coalition that shows no specific commitment towards infrastructure - we may not get another opportunity in the above regard for another two decades or so.

You admit that belt tightening on the part of the government took place post 2005 - well I'd say it's more like 2003 - the M4 Kilcock to Kinnegead, N2 Ashbourne Bypass, M8 Fermoy Bypass and N18 Ennis Bypass are all design and build contracts. Of course, roads under traditional style contracts (M50 SE Motorway for example) have opened since then, but such would have commenced construction well before 2003. Mind you, design and build should have been brought in much earlier, but in any case, at least we have it now! Road schemes are now coming in ahead of time (maybe the time given should be tighter) and on budget. There is still room for improvement, but infrastructure provision nowadays is a hell of a lot better than it was in the 1990's.

Seeing that you mention the governments failure to provide infrastructure over the last ten years, I think it's fair to say that when they said 2007 for completing the inter-urbans, it was inexperience on their part - no Irish government has ever attempted such a programme, so they were in un-chartered waters - but they are sticking to their guns and are on course to having most of these routes done by 2011 - certainly better than any past government, whether they were FF, FG, PD, Lab or whatever.

I'll leave it there!

Irish and Proud

Zoney wrote:

We're in 2007 with ten years of Celtic Tiger and still going. Surprisingly enough that means we can afford to actually build infrastructure now. The question is why more hasn't been done with the money in the last ten years, particularly in health and education. As regards transport the question should be how we've relatively little to show for the time and expenditure, even if the deliveries thus far look wonderful and marvellous to us used to goat-tracks (indeed there are many national primary roads that still are).

Yes, we are in 2007 with ten years of unprecedented exchequer income, but national projects have also risen in cost - CPO land (€20k min per acre for heaven's sake), building materials, labour, compensation etc, as well as the fact that people now have more money for litigation purposes - something that was losing a vast amount of time regarding infrastructure - think of the M50 Southern Cross (meant to start in 1992 - completed 2001) and South Eastern motorway sections. Also, when the government tried to get the inter-urbans delivered, they had to get the planning process sorted out first (something they should have known I'll admit) and also the contract procedures to cut construction time and cost. Much of this has now been sorted so many of the inter-urbans are now underway.

I'll leave it there!

Victor

Irish and Proud wrote:

I think it's fair to say that when they said 2007 for completing the inter-urbans,

No, they said 2006.

Irish and Proud wrote:

it was inexperience on their part

In part, but I much prefer the term "gobshíteism" (boasting they were going to do something that they didn't plan or budget for).

Irish and Proud wrote:

no Irish government has ever attempted such a programme, so they were in un-chartered waters

People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.

Irish and Proud wrote:

but they are sticking to their guns

Surely, you mean sticking at being gobshítes?

Irish and Proud wrote:

but they are sticking to their guns and are on course to having most of these routes done by 2011 .

Thats not "sticking to their guns" - thats backtracking by 5 years.

Irish and Proud wrote:

certainly better than any past government, whether they were FF, FG, PD, Lab or whatever.

Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

markpb

Irish and Proud wrote:

Is the alternative coalition of FG/Lab/Greens suitable for our long term national transport objectives? I for one don’t think so and here’s why [snip] I'll leave it there for now!

That was a great rant at why you want motorways built, completely ignoring every other part of our transport system and badly hiding the fact that you think FF are the bees knees because they built a few motorways badly and over budget (hint: building roads isn't rocket science, people do it all the time). Well done

Bards

Victor wrote:

No, they said 2006.
In part, but I much prefer the term "gobshíteism" (boasting they were going to do something that they didn't plan or budget for).
People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.
Surely, you mean sticking at being gobshítes?
Thats not "sticking to their guns" - thats backtracking by 5 years.
Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

markpb

Bards wrote:

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

Is forward planning by politicians something we should be surprised and grateful for now? Hurray. Now if only he'd done in three years earlier at the start of his term instead of the end. Or if Seamus Brennan had done it while the money was rolling in.

PS He's despised because he's useless and clueless.

Victor

Bards wrote:

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

Haven't multi-year budgets been on the go for a couple of years? (And about time too).

Bards

markpb wrote:

Is forward planning by politicians something we should be surprised and grateful for now? Hurray. Now if only he'd done in three years earlier at the start of his term instead of the end. Or if Seamus Brennan had done it while the money was rolling in.

PS He's despised because he's useless and clueless.

he did.. only been in transport for two years...

Irish and Proud

Bards wrote:

People are forgetting that T21 is a ten year framework for financing Transport Infrastructure. It is the first time in our history that the NRA RPA etc have a ten year rolling framework in which to budget and plan, as opposed to the old model of year to year, budget to budget to see how much would be allocated this year to the different agencies.

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

Many thanks for that mate - I've been reading this forum for quite some time and much of what I see is just FF bashing (of course, I'm not assuming that you support either FF or PD). Needless to say, the rollout of the transport strategy isn't perfect, but what many people fail to mention is that it's the first time we've had a strategy like you mentioned. Would the same people like to analyse FG/Lab of the 1980's and their performance on infrastructure - I won't even go there, and FF/Lab of the 1990's weren't much better either.

For those who are ranting at the current government - OK, we didn't have as much money in the 1980's or 90's, but things were a lot cheaper then and most major towns should have been provided with at least a simple S2 urban bypass stretching a couple of miles or so. In the 1980's we had to sit for up to 30mins in towns like Newbridge on the N7, Mitchelstown on the N8, Shankill on the N11, Longford on the N4 to name just a few - all for the want of simple relief roads at low cost - it was a total disgrace! :mad: Also, remember all the fanfare and hype surrounding Dublin's East Link opening in 1984 - I remember it on radio and TV! I didn't see quite as much hype for the Dublin Port Tunnel.

Let's get real!

Irish and Proud

Victor wrote:

No, they said 2006.
In part, but I much prefer the term "gobshíteism" (boasting they were going to do something that they didn't plan or budget for).

The inter-urbans are late, but they are being done - that's the important thing!

Victor wrote:

People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.

Don't be ridiculous! :mad:

Victor wrote:

Surely, you mean sticking at being gobshítes?

Is that the best arguement you can put forward?

Victor wrote:

Thats not "sticking to their guns" - thats backtracking by 5 years.
Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

Well, I'd love to see you up there in power! :rolleyes:
I don't know what the last sentence is supposed to mean.

Irish and Proud

markpb wrote:

That was a great rant at why you want motorways built, completely ignoring every other part of our transport system and badly hiding the fact that you think FF are the bees knees because they built a few motorways badly and over budget (hint: building roads isn't rocket science, people do it all the time). Well done

Well you obviously haven't done too much research!

markf909

That is one thing you can thank Martin Cullen for even though he is dispised by the media for not being in the D4 clan

Possibly the funniest thing i've read on this forum.

ednwireland

Irish and Proud wrote:

I'm not exactly trying to say this government is brilliant, but there's no proper alternative available. With this in mind, I'm just saying that given that the country is on the verge of having a national motorway system plus an enhanced rail network,

could you tell me where this national motorway network is i havent seen one motorway north or south dual carrigeways are not motorways no matter hat igns you pu on them. i live in donegal drove to athlone recently didnt see one peice of dual carrigeway never mind motorway. there may be moe roads but on the verge of a national motorway network wake up we are far far far from that.

enhanced railway network dont get me started

when youve woke from your bizarre dream let me know

Stark

edwinireland wrote:

could you tell me where this national motorway network is i havent seen one motorway north or south dual carrigeways are not motorways no matter hat igns you pu on them.

?

What do you define as a motorway then?

Slice

Seeing that you mention the governments failure to provide infrastructure over the last ten years, I think it's fair to say that when they said 2007 for completing the inter-urbans, it was inexperience on their part - no Irish government has ever attempted such a programme, so they were in un-chartered waters - but they are sticking to their guns and are on course to having most of these routes done by 2011 - certainly better than any past government, whether they were FF, FG, PD, Lab or whatever.

I don't think it's fair on the alternative coalition to imply that if and when they enter government they'll be bringing with them the same degree of inexperience you seem to be acknowledging the present government had when it embarked on its programme of capital investment in infrastructure. Keep in mind that whatever experience gained by the present government is actually experience gained by the civil service; the same civil service that will be answerable to whatever parties getting into the next government.

Stark

Irish and Proud wrote:

Enda Kenny’s contract with the people of Ireland seems to be very selective, but more worryingly, has no reference to any specific transport development - not even the inter-urban motorways. If Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach, he is more than likely going to require Labour and the Greens. Now, the Greens policy is to honour all existing road contracts, but basically stop everything else subject to further analysis and reprioritisation. Bearing in mind that some interurban sections are not yet under contract, will this mean a half finished motorway network joined up with 2+1 sections on existing alignments?

Well I doubt the Greens will have much influence over FG/Labour in this regard if they get into government.

Irish and Proud

Slice wrote:

I don't think it's fair on the alternative coalition to imply that if and when they enter government they'll be bringing with them the same degree of inexperience you seem to be acknowledging the present government had when it embarked on its programme of capital investment in infrastructure. Keep in mind that whatever experience gained by the present government is actually experience gained by the civil service; the same civil service that will be answerable to whatever parties getting into the next government.

That's a fair and balanced point!

However, my main concern with the alternative coalition is the diversity of party policies especially if the Greens are involved. What will be compromised to form such a government? Will all the inter-urbans, M50 upgrade as well as the Atlantic Western Corridor be realised or will some schemes be dropped. I know the Greens will have a small mandate, but FG has been known to let the tail wag the dog in coalitions before, so for that reason, I'm very concerned. Maybe Enda Kenny will be different to other FG leaders but as it stands, he's an unknown quantity.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

ednwireland wrote:

could you tell me where this national motorway network is i havent seen one motorway north or south dual carrigeways are not motorways no matter hat igns you pu on them. i live in donegal drove to athlone recently didnt see one peice of dual carrigeway never mind motorway. there may be moe roads but on the verge of a national motorway network wake up we are far far far from that.

enhanced railway network dont get me started

when youve woke from your bizarre dream let me know

Have you heard of a map? :rolleyes:
Have you heard of www.nra.ie :rolleyes:

Oh, and I've been on many main roads in France, Spain and Britain where motorways are few and far between - of course not every main road is becoming a motorway. Don't be silly! :mad:

BTW, Donegal wouldn't have the traffic to justify a motorway (capacity: 50k+) - if there's one road in Donegal that even reaches 20k, tell me about it - D2AP, 2+1 or WS2 is probably what you need there.

As for HQDCs, the design criteria is exactly the same as for motorways (120kph design speed). The alignments and junctions are designed to exactly the same specification. The only differences are that the signs are green, there's no emergency phones provided, lay-bys are provided, and most types of motor traffic are permitted.

I'll leave it there.

stipey

We have a long term national transport strategy? Cool!

The cost and times overruns on the majority of our infrastructure projects are, in many cases, nothing short of incredible.

I work as a Business Analyse/Software Engineer - my job is to analyse our client's requirements, estimate how long the project will take and then lead a small team of developers in delivering the solution.

I know it is on a smaller scale but if I understimated the time and effort involved to the same extent (percentage wise) as regularly as our civil servants seem to our company would face some tough questions and I would be dragged over hot coals in turn. It would be more than my job is worth. If I decide to cover my own ass by overestimating our tenders would not be competitive and we would all be out of a job.

Why aren't these jobs fixed price instead of time and materials based? This whole "ooops we found a big rock that we'll have to move... we hadn't reckoned on finding stuff like this when we were digging - that will be an extra X million please?" is ridiculous. Paying it out of public money, no apparent questions asked is just taking the piss.

Bards

stipey wrote:

We have a long term national transport strategy? Cool!

The cost and times overruns on the majority of our infrastructure projects are, in many cases, nothing short of incredible.

I work as a Business Analyse/Software Engineer - my job is to analyse our client's requirements, estimate how long the project will take and then lead a small team of developers in delivering the solution.

I know it is on a smaller scale but if I understimated the time and effort involved to the same extent (percentage wise) as regularly as our civil servants seem to our company would face some tough questions and I would be dragged over hot coals in turn. It would be more than my job is worth. If I decide to cover my own ass by overestimating our tenders would not be competitive and we would all be out of a job.

Why aren't these jobs fixed price instead of time and materials based? This whole "ooops we found a big rock that we'll have to move... we hadn't reckoned on finding stuff like this when we were digging - that will be an extra X million please?" is ridiculous. Paying it out of public money, no apparent questions asked is just taking the piss.

and that is why they are all design & build contracts now.. some are even early contractor involvement like the M8 Cashel Mitchelstown, where more of the risk is now carried by the contractor

markpb

stipey wrote:

Why aren't these jobs fixed price instead of time and materials based? This whole "ooops we found a big rock that we'll have to move... we hadn't reckoned on finding stuff like this when we were digging - that will be an extra X million please?" is ridiculous. Paying it out of public money, no apparent questions asked is just taking the piss.

They are now. Apparently it never occurred to anyone in the NRA to do that until this year!

The downside of course is that everyone will add on a bit to make sure they make a profit and to cover any unexpected costs. They know they're dealing with the government so that 'bit' can be quite a big bit, especialy since they know they can get away with a big bit because everyone else is doing it too

Slice

I suppose it's also a question of how much voters think the present coalition parties are likely to deliver on promises made. I think with roads they've shown that they've been able to deliver, but with public transport it's just one failure after another. If I cared that much about having HQDCs across the country I'd definitely vote FF or PDs, but I don't so that would influence my decision also.

stipey

So so they are more or less fixed price now.... but why did it take so long to figure out this might be the way forward. Doesn't exactly show the current administration in a fiscally prudent light now does it?

And as for contingency add-ons i doubt they will be on the scale indicated below (300+%). Source: Village Magazine. Anybody who overestimates to this extent will not have the most competitive tender so even if there is a little extra "just in case" figure in their estimate the public coffers will still be better off.

Promise: Implement the National Roads Programme by 2006

Fianna Fáil specifically promised delivery by 2006. The roads programme is now running seven years late and the cost of the programme, which was to be €5.6bn, will certainly be over €17bn (according to the Comptroller and Auditor General) and, very likely, far higher.

(Wasn't there some statistic going around when the luas was finally rolled out that the whole project - all €700 million of it - was more than the American's spent getting to the moon)

Idbatterim

good points about the N6 dual carriageway/motorway, my parents bought a house down there 2 years ago, then you had the m4 motorway ending before enfield, now you can travel to kilbeggan and the new stretch that will link up with the Athlone bypass will be done next year. Its easy to criticise the government but in fairness we have only had money for 10 years, in 3 more years all the interurban routes are scheduled to be complete. I mean when they talk about the Germans and French etc, having good infrastructure, they have 80 and 60 million people respectively and are slap bang in the middle of europe. what else would you expect? it think given irelands position and population (small but concentrated mainly in Leinster) its impressive they can build a 200km motorway to link to Galway for example with a population of 70k! We will also soon have the newest average age rail fleet in Europe...

Irish and Proud

stipey wrote:

So so they are more or less fixed price now.... but why did it take so long to figure out this might be the way forward. Doesn't exactly show the current administration in a fiscally prudent light now does it?

I would agree that fixed price contracts should have been included from the very start of the National Development Plan. With motorways such as the M1, a lot of taxpayers money was wasted on monuments to people's ego - I mean oversized and over-skewed road bridges that made their engineers look good. I believe that the transport minister of around 2002, Seamus Brennan, was very instrumental in calling a halt (should have been before 1999 though!). Also, design and build was introduced as part of the fixed price contracting regime then. However, I disagree with the narrower continental style motorways with concrete barriers (to cut costs further), but hey, they're still better than what they're bypassing by a mile, and at least the schemes are longer (many are now around 20 miles) and more meaningful.

I'll leave it there.

Victor

This board is equal oppurtunites. We bash the opposition / media / WRC / other hair brained schemes.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Don't be ridiculous! :mad:

No, thats exactly how they did it. Look at the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report. How else do you think they went from 6 billion to 14 billion+.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Well, I'd love to see you up there in power! :rolleyes:

I'm doing my bit. I've sat on the Dublin City Council Transport Committe, I've made submissions on Luas and Docklands Station. I've just proofread the Road Traffic Collisions Statistics for 2005 for the RSA. What have you done for us?

Irish and Proud wrote:

Victor wrote:

Its been about money, taxpayer's money, not who is in power.

I don't know what the last sentence is supposed to mean.

It means that if oother parties were in power for the last ten years that they would also have made transport improvements, hopefully with a little less complacancy. The only thing different between now any any time in the past is money.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Have you heard of a map? :rolleyes: Have you heard of www.nra.ie :rolleyes: .

Yeah and theres sod all dual carriageway from Donegal to Athlone (Sligo Bypass and Athlone Bypass).

Bards wrote:

and that is why they are all design & build contracts now.. some are even early contractor involvement like the M8 Cashel Mitchelstown, where more of the risk is now carried by the contractor

Cashel Mitchelstown stops well short of Mitchelstown and isn't motorway.

Irish and Proud wrote:

With motorways such as the M1, a lot of taxpayers money was wasted on monuments to people's ego

Do you mean things like an interchange for everybody in the audience? Thats still happening. In the UK or France there are sectiosn of motorway 20 or 30km long without and interchange. Here, other than the M1 in Louth, I doubt if you go over about 8km.

Irish and Proud

Idbatterim wrote:

good points about the N6 dual carriageway/motorway, my parents bought a house down there 2 years ago, then you had the m4 motorway ending before enfield, now you can travel to kilbeggan and the new stretch that will link up with the Athlone bypass will be done next year. Its easy to criticise the government but in fairness we have only had money for 10 years, in 3 more years all the interurban routes are scheduled to be complete. I mean when they talk about the Germans and French etc, having good infrastructure, they have 80 and 60 million people respectively and are slap bang in the middle of europe. what else would you expect? it think given irelands position and population (small but concentrated mainly in Leinster) its impressive they can build a 200km motorway to link to Galway for example with a population of 70k! We will also soon have the newest average age rail fleet in Europe...

Very good point about this country in relation to others - our population stands at just 4.23m (2006 census). With this in mind, we have just completed one of Europe's largest civil engineering projects: The Dublin Port Tunnel (DPT), which is also the only scheme ever to exceed the scale of Ardnacrusha in the state. Also, bear in mind that no tunnel in Britain is as long as the DPT. And then there's what you were saying above ...

So yes, we can be Irish and Proud!

Irish and Proud

Victor wrote:

I'm doing my bit. I've sat on the Dublin City Council Transport Committe, I've made submissions on Luas and Docklands Station. I've just proofread the Road Traffic Collisions Statistics for 2005 for the RSA. What have you done for us?

Well it's good that you're active in making a contribution to this country!

However, the argument is not about what you are doing, it's more about your attitude to the government, something which I'd expect to be more impartial on the part of a moderator.

Victor wrote:

It means that if other parties were in power for the last ten years that they would also have made transport improvements, hopefully with a little less complacancy.

With left wing ideologies with Labour and the Greens, I wouldn't be so sure about the level of investment in comparison to this government.

Victor wrote:

Yeah and theres sod all dual carriageway from Donegal to Athlone (Sligo Bypass and Athlone Bypass)..

Route: N15 to Sligo, N4 to Boyle, N61 via Roscommon
Non DC sections: around 8500 CPUs at most! :rolleyes:

Victor wrote:

Cashel Mitchelstown stops well short of Mitchelstown and isn't motorway.

It's still designed for 120kph, so the point is ...

Victor wrote:

Do you mean things like an interchange for everybody in the audience? Thats still happening.

We do have a dispersed rural population compared to other countries, so we need more junctions!

I'll leave it there.

Zoney

Irish and Proud wrote:

It's still designed for 120kph, so the point is ...

The point is that any road designed for 120km/h should have that as the speed limit, and for reasons of safety and sanity should have motorway restrictions (no pedestrians, learner drivers, etc.)

Also the important headline statistic for anyone weighing up Ireland's road infrastructure is km of motorway. Not km of "things like motorway, no really, you'd hardly notice the difference".

"High Quality Dual Carriageways" are a bad joke. An Irish solution to an Irish problem, and I don't even know what crazy problem the outgoing govt. had. Too many learner drivers? Opposition from farmers or eco-warriors? (ah sure don't be worried, it's just a big road, not one of those wild outrageous motorway things).

Irish and Proud

Victor wrote:

People knew what it took to build a road - and thats what they budgeted for, they simply omitted concepts like major bridges, interchanges, archaeology and the like - the important bits.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Don't be ridiculous!

Victor wrote:

No, thats exactly how they did it. Look at the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report. How else do you think they went from 6 billion to 14 billion+.

If the above is true, this looks like a typical screw-up by senior civil servants, something which seems to have been a major problem for many past governments. For example, I heard that when the N3 Blanchardstown By-pass was being built (1989 - 1991), the flyovers for the rotary over the then proposed M50 Northern Cross Route were initially built but then had to be demolished because they were unstable - the ribbed arched bridges that we see today happen to be their replacement apparently. Now that would be some screw-up and I think senior staff of the then Dublin County Council were fired in the aftermath, so what you quoted might not be at all surprising.

The above would probably have been a contributory factor towards the case for fixed price design and build contracts, and as someone else quoted, early contractor involvement as is the case with the N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown scheme currently underway. The planning for this particular scheme seemed very quick - a bit like the N8 Cashel By-pass.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

Zoney wrote:

The point is that any road designed for 120km/h should have that as the speed limit, and for reasons of safety and sanity should have motorway restrictions (no pedestrians, learner drivers, etc.)

Also the important headline statistic for anyone weighing up Ireland's road infrastructure is km of motorway. Not km of "things like motorway, no really, you'd hardly notice the difference".

"High Quality Dual Carriageways" are a bad joke. An Irish solution to an Irish problem, and I don't even know what crazy problem the outgoing govt. had. Too many learner drivers? Opposition from farmers or eco-warriors? (ah sure don't be worried, it's just a big road, not one of those wild outrageous motorway things).

OK, you've got some good points there, but it's not an Irish solution to an Irish problem, but an English solution to an Irish problem. You have heard that many new motorway type roads in England have been simply called dual carriageways, because the word 'motorway' is virtually taboo over there!

However, I do agree that it's ridiculous having 120kph HQDCs not designated as motorways, especially with the narrow median cross section. The broken line for hard shoulders (just 2.5m against 3.5m lanes) implies that it's perfectly OK to stop off and have a snack, even though the traffic would be passing at an ear whistling 120kph - this is crazy, even for emergencies, I must admit. This is one reason why I don't agree with the tighter configuration. Another reason is that a hard shoulder on a motorway type road is supposed to allow vehicles to safely build their speed before rejoining the main carriageway. At 2.5m, I don't know about that! The same applies to actual motorways both in Ireland and on the continent.

I'll leave it there!

Andrew Duffy

stipey wrote:

(Wasn't there some statistic going around when the luas was finally rolled out that the whole project - all €700 million of it - was more than the American's spent getting to the moon)

The Apollo project cost about $25 billion in the 1960s and early 1970s. By any reasonable conversion, that's equivalent to over $100 billion today. Since launching a medium-sized commercial satellite costs about $200 million, it's hard to believe that anybody would think €700m euros would have got men to the moon, even in 1969.

murphaph

Andrew Duffy wrote:

The Apollo project cost about $25 billion in the 1960s and early 1970s. By any reasonable conversion, that's equivalent to over $100 billion today. Since launching a medium-sized commercial satellite costs about $200 million, it's hard to believe that anybody would think €700m euros would have got men to the moon, even in 1969.

....but it would probably build a fairly convincing set.:D

Metrobest

Irish and Proud wrote:

our population stands at just 4.23m (2006 census). With this in mind, we have just completed one of Europe's largest civil engineering projects: The Dublin Port Tunnel (DPT), which is also the only scheme ever to exceed the scale of Ardnacrusha in the state. Also, bear in mind that no tunnel in Britain is as long as the DPT. And then there's what you were saying above ...

So yes, we can be Irish and Proud! Let's get real!

I agree. When the motorway network is completed it will be very impressive for a country of Ireland's size and relatively low population density. (Interestingly, I read somewhere that Ireland used to be the most densely populated country in Europe before the famine broke out).

The road network the one example of Irish transport planning that anticipates demand rather than reacts to it; for that the PD government does deserve your first preference vote. I don't think an opposition government with a tint of dark Green would be capable of completing this network competently.

Before coming to work in Australia I casually supposed that its two biggest cities, Sydney and Melbourne (combined population is 8 million), would be linked by motorway. They are not. They are linked by a two lane road, which a newspaper described as a "goat track" stretching monotonously for hundreds of kilometres. To think that Dublin will have a motorway running all the way to a medium-sized town on the Altantic coast, Galway, is quite impressive don't you think?

I've looked on at the election campaign with Fine Gael and Labour constantly telling us that we've never had it so bad and I know they are wrong, and will be proven wrong by the result of the election.

Bertie Ahern is right to say that aside from a few peripheral issues Ireland is doing pretty damn well for a country that was an econimic basket case just over a decade ago.

We have a better road system than Australia, lower taxation, a fairer industrial relations system, better education, an equally good health service, better foreign policy, better television, better pubs. Now if only the government could do something about the climate.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

We have a better road system than Australia, lower taxation, a fairer industrial relations system, better education, an equally good health service, better foreign policy, better television, better pubs.

Makes one wonder why you haven't lived in Ireland for so long.

Why should we compare ourselves to a country on the other side of the world anyway? We have better examples of all those things you cited in Europe.

markpb

I thought this was the Commuting and Transport forum, not motorway-spotters association of Australia!

Countries build motorways for a reason and that reason is not to impress people with their vast swathes of tarmac stretching as far as the eye can see, it's to carry large amount of people quickly. Do you think the Australian government forgot to build a motorway, maybe you should drop them a quick email.

Hi government, I dunno if you noticed but your road between Sydney and Melbourne isn't very impressive and doesn't do it for me and another closet motorway fanboy who writes for a local paper. Can you drop a few million tonnes of tarmac please? kthxbai, Metrobest.

If you think the fact that we have great motorways goes any way to making up for the fact that you can't get to work in a reasonable time, or see a doctor in a reasonable time, buy a house at a reasonable price or have your kids educated in a reasonable sized class, maybe you should live here and decide for yourself. Those rose tinted glasses must be getting heavy on your nose.

Metrobest wrote:

Now if only the government could do something about the climate.

Don't make me suggest that by building motorways they are doing something about the climate. That would offend your PD sensibilities

Irish and Proud

markpb wrote:

I thought this was the Commuting and Transport forum, not motorway-spotters association of Australia!

Countries build motorways for a reason and that reason is not to impress people with their vast swathes of tarmac stretching as far as the eye can see, it's to carry large amount of people quickly. Do you think the Australian government forgot to build a motorway, maybe you should drop them a quick email.

As far as I know, people in Australia mostly fly between cities, but one would think that if only a 2 lane road is required between two of their major destinations, it would still be of high quality, like our S2 standard - if the road is being described as a goat track, that doesn't say much for Australia - look at the many large highways in the USA, even where the population is sparse.

markpb wrote:

If you think the fact that we have great motorways goes any way to making up for the fact that you can't get to work in a reasonable time, or see a doctor in a reasonable time, buy a house at a reasonable price or have your kids educated in a reasonable sized class, maybe you should live here and decide for yourself. Those rose tinted glasses must be getting heavy on your nose.;)

Commuting and property prices are a world wide problem and I admit, it's a total disgrace. :mad: However, in this country we are all culpable for the above situation - we all want to make a quick buck (particularly in property), so many of us want to work in cities like Dublin, and many in the civil service are unwilling to stick their necks out and go with the current decentralisation programme. If we want change, we have to take responsibility and make hard decisions for the long term good. There is no magic wand out there!

markpb wrote:

Don't make me suggest that by building motorways they are doing something about the climate. That would offend your PD sensibilities

The way you reduce carbon emmisions is the encourage people to seek work closer to home, encourage some high skilled industries to spread out from cities like Dublin into towns like Navan and Drogheda, tax SUVs and 4x4s off the road (unless they can be justified - farming etc), encourage more hybrid cars and finally, encourage more tele-working! There's no reason why this country shouldn't have a decent motorway system - even though our European counterparts have comprehensive public transport, they also have motorway systems similar to what we're building.

Irish and Proud

Metrobest wrote:

I've looked on at the election campaign with Fine Gael and Labour constantly telling us that we've never had it so bad and I know they are wrong, and will be proven wrong by the result of the election.

I'd say the election will be pretty tight, but I hope the current government will shade it, even if the support of independents were required (similar to the 1997-2002 Dail). If FG and Lab insist in saying that we've never had it so bad, they'd do well to look at their performance in the 1980's - when I see the large 'Vote Labour' on Liberty Hall, what comes to mind regarding public transport are strikes, non courteous staff, unreliability, non cleanliness etc.

That's not to say the things are perfect today, but our trains and buses (not Bus Eireann though) are a massive improvement on what we had. I have been using the northern commuter rail service into Dublin quite a bit and I have to say it's pretty good - I know it becomes overcrowded during rush hour, but I've already covered that issue of long distance commuting. That said, if Labour got into government, would the work ethic in our public transport system continue in the right direction - I have my doubts! However, I think management was also to blame for poor public transport!

BTW, the LUAS Green Line is excellent - have used it several times!!!

I hope you're right about the election result, but we'll have to wait and see!

markpb

Irish and Proud wrote:

As far as I know, people in Australia mostly fly between cities, but one would think that if only a 2 lane road is required between two of their major destinations, it would still be of high quality, like our S2 standard - if the road is being described as a goat track, that doesn't say much for Australia

Why? If most people fly or take the train (which are more apt for super long distances) why would you spend money upgrading the road? What difference does it make? We're back at the motorway fan club again.

so many of us want to work in cities like Dublin, and many in the civil service are unwilling to stick their necks out and go with the current decentralisation programme. If we want change, we have to take responsibility and make hard decisions for the long term good. There is no magic wand out there!

Decentralisation, in it's current form, is a joke that has been debated to death here. It was badly conceived, ill thought out and used for political gain. If it had been done properly and in a manner that was likely to work (not brute forcing civil servants out of the city), it might have made some small difference to Dublin.

I work in software development and apart from the fact that there are precious few development jobs outside of Dublin, I want to live in a city. I want the freedom of having public transport instead of the costs of buying, taxing, insuring and parking a car. There are no other cities in Ireland (apart from Belfast) that offer me that and I'm sure plenty of others are in the same boat. If I don't want to move, why should any software company set up outside Dublin? It's an endless cycle. This government did nothing to encourage people to move and nothing to balance development across several cities. All the motorways in the world won't help that.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

I thought this was the Commuting and Transport forum, not motorway-spotters association of Australia!

Countries build motorways for a reason and that reason is not to impress people with their vast swathes of tarmac stretching as far as the eye can see, it's to carry large amount of people quickly. Do you think the Australian government forgot to build a motorway, maybe you should drop them a quick email.

If you think the fact that we have great motorways goes any way to making up for the fact that you can't get to work in a reasonable time, or see a doctor in a reasonable time, buy a house at a reasonable price or have your kids educated in a reasonable sized class, maybe you should live here and decide for yourself. Those rose tinted glasses must be getting heavy on your nose.

Don't make me suggest that by building motorways they are doing something about the climate. That would offend your PD sensibilities

FYI, Sydney and Melbourne were supposed to have a motorway linking them; the Australian federal government and the state governments have delayed and dithered and done nothing, meanwhile everyone else suffers. Sound familiar? Yes, they have incompentent policians in other counties, too.

The point I'm making is that Ireland's doing very well and Mark I can't understand why you're not prepared to acknowledge that. You accuse me of wearing rose tinted glasses but you're the one with the blinkers on.

What I do in relation to life in Ireland is to constantly point out that we were an econonic basket case in the late 80s and early 90s when Fine Gael and Labour had their chance to fix things and didn't. Back then, the roads were a joke. Most people's idea of a holiday was a caravan trip to Wales on the ferry. The health service was worse than it is today. Low and middle-income earners lost more than half their pay packets in income tax. University education meant fees many could not afford. Emigration was rampant - a brain drain to places like Australia where life was better. And the roads were a joke. There was no luas. There was no Ryanair to escape the misery cheaply.

It's fair to say that life in Ireland has got better, not worse, in the last five years.

Bertie Ahern's motorways improve the quality of life for vast majority of Irish citizens who would prefer to recline on a sun bed in Uranus for seven years than sit in traffic in Moate for forty minutes.

And there's nothing wrong with building infrastructure that impresses, for that matter. Singapore's Chiangi airport, when built, was considered a grandiose, grotesque investment at a time when that country was still finding its feet. It turned out to be an economic success. Look also at Sydney Harbour Bridge, Singapore's East Coast Parkway and France's Milau Viaduct, infrastructure built to impress but with a function.

You seem to advocating a return to the "tax and spend" policies that have failed Ireland in the past, pumping more money into bloated state monopolies, and an inefficient public service. Does hiring more teachers actually make education better, or should we get better teachers?

Philip, you're right when you say we don't have to compare ourselves to Australia - what we should be able to do, however, is to recognise what we are doing right and be proud of what we have achieved as a nation, rather than have a "grass is always greener" approach, as Mark exhibits. Australians think of themselves as the the best country in the world, so do the French and the Dutch and many others. I've lived in different countries and seen the grass in different shades. Lots of things about Ireland still frustrate me (eg. The Irish Times editorials which Charlie Haughey said were written "like an oul wan sitting in the bath with the water lapping around her fanny") and I don't desire to live there at this point in time. (In Ireland, not the bath...:p )

I'll leave it there!

Irish and Proud

Metrobest wrote:

Yes, they have incompentent policians in other counties, too.

Yes indeed - just look at the Big Dig freeway project in Boston!

Metrobest wrote:

The point I'm making is that Ireland's doing very well and Mark I can't understand why you're not prepared to acknowledge that. You accuse me of wearing rose tinted glasses but you're the one with the blinkers on.

Let me add to that - I am sick and tired of people running down this country. :mad: Such an attitude was handed down to us by the old British mentality which lasted right into the 1990's - remember when one edition of the Oxford Dictionary had a single description of the word 'Irish' as 'ludicrous and illogical' or something along those lines - Also, does 'Ireland is a land peopled by pixies, peasants and priests' come to mind? - both these inane descriptions of our nation were made in the 1990's. Most British people seem to have moved on now, and it's about time we did too!!! :cool: Ireland is a great nation considering where we were when the state was born in 1921!

Metrobest wrote:

What I do in relation to life in Ireland is to constantly point out that we were an econonic basket case in the late 80s and early 90s when Fine Gael and Labour had their chance to fix things and didn't. Back then, the roads were a joke. Most people's idea of a holiday was a caravan trip to Wales on the ferry. The health service was worse than it is today. Low and middle-income earners lost more than half their pay packets in income tax. University education meant fees many could not afford. Emigration was rampant - a brain drain to places like Australia where life was better. And the roads were a joke. There was no luas. There was no Ryanair to escape the misery cheaply.

Now, some people say that we didn't have the money in the 1980's, but something has just come to mind - in the lifetime of the FG/Lab government then, the national debt was doubled to over IR£20bn, but that would only be an extra IR£10bn to play around with then! :rolleyes: Oh, and I'm sure that when the Euro conversion and national inflation rates are taken into account, it still wouldn't amount to much by today's prices!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

markpb wrote:

This government did nothing to encourage people to move and nothing to balance development across several cities. All the motorways in the world won't help that.

Motorways will help towards industry dispersal, but what's also needed is more broadband, and other services like natural gas based in the provincial towns - this process is currently underway around the country (new gas lines and broadband projects), but hey, the government are still doing nothing about balanced regional development! :rolleyes:

However, what's also needed is a major promotion drive to highlight the advantages of setting up high skilled industries in provincial towns. Further to that, high density development along with imp style buses would make such towns more viable.

I'll leave it there.

Victor

Broadband and gas rollout is abysmal.

In Northern Ireland, if you had electricity you could get broadband 4-5 years ago. Here, in Europe's e-hub, we aren't anywhere near that yet.

http://www.bordgais.ie/networks/index.jsp?1nID=102&pID=104&nID=141 - Bord Gais prioitising getting gas to Derry over gas to, erm Belmullet, where the gas will come from.

Irish and Proud wrote:

OK, you've got some good points there, but it's not an Irish solution to an Irish problem, but an English solution to an Irish problem. You have heard that many new motorway type roads in England have been simply called dual carriageways, because the word 'motorway' is virtually taboo over there!

Actually, in England, a similar road to these would be termed and 'expressway' in a corruption of the American term, built without hard shoulders and some other features.

Irish and Proud

I was at the polling booths this morning and I voted like I said: FF and PD
Nothing convinces me that either FG/Lab or FG/Lab/Greens would be a good alternative to the outgoing government, especially in relation to transport!

Labour - Too pro-union - not good for transport commuters!
Greens - Too anti-motorway - not good for the inter-urbans!
Fine Gael - Has a history of allowing the tail to wag the dog!

Need I say more???

Stark

Irish and Proud wrote:

Labour - Too pro-union - not good for public transport commuters!

How much has public transport improved in 10 years of FF/PDs government?

Irish and Proud

Stark wrote:

How much has public transport improved in 10 years of FF/PDs government?

Having used the Northern Commuter Line into Dublin many times, it's not a hard question. We've acquired a completely new set of railcars which are clean and quite efficient. We've seen most stations upgraded - longer platforms, new bridges, stairs, ramps and lifts. More train services - at midday, there's one from Drogheda every 15 to 40 minutes. Under the last government FG/Lab/DL, that would have been a 'dream on baby!' - sounds familiar? :rolleyes:

Oh, and if the LUAS is not a big development in public transport, then what is? Want me to go on? Kildare Route Project, New trains from Dublin to Cork (which will shortly be reaching up to 200kph/125mph in places), Purpose built QBCs in Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (planned for Tallaght/Ballymount next), New fleet for Dublin Bus, DART Upgrade etc etc!

Oh please don't go on about 'no extra buses for Dublin', because it doesn't really stand up. With more QBCs (all implemented under this government), less buses are standing idle in traffic which in turn means that the fleet can get around quicker, thereby allowing more scope for bus services. This to me is very good planning because by spending money on QBCs rather than extra buses, the authorities are optimising and renewing the fleet before expanding it - this leads to less fuel consumption per passenger!

I'll leave it there.

Stark

Isn't Dublin great?

I can still wait 90 mins for a bus that's scheduled every 15 mins in Cork, which will then get stuck in traffic because the lovely "quality" bus corridors are used for car parking 24/7. You'll hear similar from people in Limerick and Galway. The Midleton rail line still hasn't begun afaik, despite being promised for years. Suburbs like Ballincollig are still only covered by the hourly rural services despite being only a few km from the city centre.

Irish and Proud wrote:

More train services - at midday, there's one from Drogheda every 15 to 40 minutes. Under the last government FG/Lab/DL, that would have been a 'dream on baby!' - sounds familiar?

Ah yes, the days when people didn't need to commute from Drogedha.

Irish and Proud wrote:

With more QBCs (all implemented under this government), less buses are standing idle in traffic which in turn means that the fleet can get around quicker, thereby allowing more scope for bus services. This to me is very good planning because by spending money on QBCs rather than extra buses, the authorities are optimising and renewing the fleet before expanding it - this leads to less fuel consumption per passenger!

Is that what they told you in Ógra Fianna Fáil? Why then is Dublin Bus constantly saying that congestion is on the increase and buses are spending more and more time stuck in traffic? Why is Dublin Bus crying out for buses over and over if things are so great?

What about cyclists? Why has nothing been done to make Ireland's cities more cyclist friendly? The so called cycle lanes in Dublin are an absolute joke.

Irish and Proid wrote:

Oh, and if the LUAS is not a big development in public transport, then what is? Want me to go on? Kildare Route Project, New trains from Dublin to Cork (which will shortly be reaching up to 200kph/125mph in places), Purpose built QBCs in Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (planned for Tallaght/Ballymount next), New fleet for Dublin Bus, DART Upgrade etc etc!

Where's the much needed and promised Navan rail line?

In fact, why is it, in the capital city of one of the wealthiest nations in the world, that public transport is still the "poor man's choice"?

Irish and Proud

Stark wrote:

Isn't Dublin great?

Didn't Dublin do well in a fairly recent study regarding the quality of life in European cities (BTW, Dublin is one of just four cities in Europe with a blue flag beach!).

Stark wrote:

I can still wait 90 mins for a bus that's scheduled every 15 mins in Cork, which will then get stuck in traffic because the lovely "quality" bus corridors are used for car parking 24/7. You'll hear similar from people in Limerick and Galway. The Midleton rail line still hasn't begun afaik, despite being promised for years. Suburbs like Ballincollig are still only covered by the hourly rural services despite being only a few km from the city centre.

Dublin is my city, so I'm in no position to comment.

Stark wrote:

Ah yes, the days when people didn't need to commute from Drogedha.

Nonsense! - I've been commuting on the Northern Suburban Line in 1993 when people were travelling from as far as Dundalk into Dublin. BTW, do people commute at midday on the trains that I mentioned - well, we learn something new every day! :rolleyes:

Stark wrote:

Is that what they told you in Ógra Fianna Fáil? Why then is Dublin Bus constantly saying that congestion is on the increase and buses are spending more and more time stuck in traffic? Why is Dublin Bus crying out for buses over and over if things are so great?

I didn't say I'm FF, I said I was voting for FF and PD in this election because I've no confidence in the alternative - not the same thing you know! Regarding Dublin Bus, every state company needs continuing investment, so of course that's what they'd say in order to avoid being squeezed out in December.

Stark wrote:

What about cyclists? Why has nothing been done to make Ireland's cities more cyclist friendly? The so called cycle lanes in Dublin are an absolute joke.

Do you cycle? I had a work colleague around 2000 who travelled from the southside to Clontarf, and he thought the cycle tracks were quite good! That said, I don't know myself - I just know that the cycle lanes/tracks in the city are quite extensive.

Stark wrote:

Where's the much needed and promised Navan rail line?

Have you any idea of what's involved in planning a rail line - the alignment (both horizontally and vertically) for such would be far less flexible than that for a motorway, so the planning process would be much more difficult. Also, railways per km were about four times the cost of motorways. In addition, much of the alignment for the former Navan rail has been erased by farmers etc, and in any case, the railway would have to serve more towns than it's predecessor in order to make it viable, so basically it's a job from square one!
But it's a nice easy project though! :rolleyes:

Stark wrote:

In fact, why is it, in the capital city of one of the wealthiest nations in the world, that public transport is still the "poor man's choice"?

Well, we didn't have much to start with in 1921 and with decades of under-investment since, it's not an easy fix for any government today. Most metro systems in cities like London and Paris have taken over a century to develop. And don't mention Madrid and its wonders - that city has a population (metropolitan area: 5.5m) bigger than Ireland's 4.25m - so how would it compare per capita?

I'll leave it there.