Is the alternative coalition suitable for our long term national transport strategy?

Stark

Irish_And_Proud wrote:

Didn't Dublin do well in a fairly recent study regarding the quality of life in European cities (BTW, Dublin is one of just four cities in Europe with a blue flag beach!).

I was being facetious when I said that. Dublin may have seen some improvements in the public transport area, but other cities sure haven't.

Irish And Proud wrote:

BTW, do people commute at midday on the trains that I mentioned - well, we learn something new every day!

Flexitime, shift working, part-time working, job sharing, the demise of the traditional 9-5 working day. Some of the trends in modern Ireland. Rush hour traffic has actually decreased over time despite the explosive increase in the number of people commuting by car. I'm sure they don't run empty trains just for the show of it.

Irish And Proud wrote:

Do you cycle?

I used to in Dublin when I lived near Clontarf. I don't anymore though, no decent routes where I live. Not a hope of cycling in Cork.

Irish And Proud wrote:

I just know that the cycle lanes/tracks in the city are quite extensive.

Correction. The figures are quite extensive. You can stick a sign on a footpath saying cyclists are allowed use the footpath and it counts towards the number of kilometres that the council quote. Doesn't mean it's suitable for use as cycle track though. In Cork, they relaid a load of footpaths and quoted it as "green route", green route meant to imply bus lanes and cycle lanes.

Irish And Proud wrote:

I didn't say I'm FF, I said I was voting for FF and PD in this election because I've no confidence in the alternative - not the same thing you know

I've no confidence in Fine Gael either, but that doesn't mean the sun shines out the ass of anything that's not FG.

Irish and Proud wrote:

Well, we didn't have much to start with in 1921 and with decades of under-investment since, it's not an easy fix for any government today. Most metro systems in cities like London and Paris have taken over a century to develop. And don't mention Madrid and its wonders - that city has a population (metropolitan area: 5.5m) bigger than Ireland's 4.25m - so how would it compare per capita?

Who says anything about Metro. Why can't the bus service be sorted out? There are places in Europe (Edinburgh and pretty much anywhere in Germany being two examples) where you could set your watch by the buses. They might be the exception rather than the rule, but I can easily stand at a stop in Dublin that sits on 3 bus routes, and not have a bus after waiting 20 mins. That means the service is less than 33% reliable. And I consider Dublin Bus to be premium service compared to the bus services in cities other than Dublin.

Funnily enough, the European cities with the worst bus services are those where the bus service was privatised. What do the PDs want to do? Privatise the bus service!

dowlingm

I think joint alignments of motorways and railways should be at least explored to keep down the costs of land CPOs and also if doubledecking is feasible in bridges/viaducts etc. Motorways are easier to put through than rail lines, granted, but that's something you can deal with by running the line either beneath or above the road to reduce grade change and let's face it we have a line that meanders beside a canal so following an M-way/HQDC can't be that hard.

Niall1234

Public transport and rail will never be the total solution for Irish transport that some people here think it is.

Interurban rail is fine. There is the population for it. But that is where it end. Ireland has the highest ratio of rural population to urban population in all of Europe. THis means that the population is more spread out and there are less centres of high population.

In other countries, rail is suitable, as a higher percentage of people are within 5 miles of a train station.

A decent road network will always be needed in Ireland is needed as rail will never be feasible on a scale as in other European countries.

Urban rail on the other hand is a different story.

DerekP11

Irish and Proud wrote:

Having used the Northern Commuter Line into Dublin many times, it's not a hard question. We've acquired a completely new set of railcars which are clean and quite efficient. We've seen most stations upgraded - longer platforms, new bridges, stairs, ramps and lifts. More train services - at midday, there's one from Drogheda every 15 to 40 minutes. Under the last government FG/Lab/DL, that would have been a 'dream on baby!' - sounds familiar? :rolleyes:

Oh, and if the LUAS is not a big development in public transport, then what is? Want me to go on? Kildare Route Project, New trains from Dublin to Cork (which will shortly be reaching up to 200kph/125mph in places), Purpose built QBCs in Blanchardstown and Clondalkin (planned for Tallaght/Ballymount next), New fleet for Dublin Bus, DART Upgrade etc etc!

Oh please don't go on about 'no extra buses for Dublin', because it doesn't really stand up. With more QBCs (all implemented under this government), less buses are standing idle in traffic which in turn means that the fleet can get around quicker, thereby allowing more scope for bus services. This to me is very good planning because by spending money on QBCs rather than extra buses, the authorities are optimising and renewing the fleet before expanding it - this leads to less fuel consumption per passenger!

I'll leave it there.

Your understanding of rail transport in this country is on a par with Martin Cullen and FF. You are some spin Doctor. The Northern Commuter line is bursting at the seams. People are regularly fainting on dangerously overcrowded trains and many more are frequently left behind on the lovely long platforms you talk of.

FF and Luas? Try some facts that won't come across nearly as positive. In Government they are responsible for the fact that neither line is linked up and the project was delayed by years because of them.

New trains on the Cork line? What planet are you on when you speak of 125mph shortly? Firstly, we don't have any train capable of doing that speed. (not even the new ones you mention) The current loco hauling them can only do 100mph and the sections in which it can do that are very short. In fact Dublin Cork trains rarely hit the 100mph mark at any point. While the new trains were "designed" to travel at that speed, what we actually got was a bunch of carraiges that are hauled or pushed by a 13 year old loco. (in 1984 we bought carraiges capable of the same speed, but they never got there either) Furthermore these new carraiges will have to be "modified" before they can do 125 mph. The track has to be upgraded too. None of this has received or even been promised funding. Its an idea in the heads of IE management.

Don't spin your brains about rail, like some demented FF voter that has swallowed every piece of bull**** fed to you. For the record Im not affiliated to any political party and my vote was cast on the basis of getting some kind of reality applied to developing rail transport in this country. With FF or the PDs, I'd be wasting my time. Our rail network is still a shambles in terms of customer service, operation, reliability, speed and comfort. No amount of crap from Cullen and his bumchums can change that fact. When rail is discussed on radio, switchboards light up with horror stories. What your sweethearts in FF have delivered couild only have worked 20 years ago.

"A lot done, more to do".

"We're not there yet, but we're getting there".

Two slogans used by different entities around the time of the last election.

Get the picture? Or do I need to draw it for you?

dowlingm

Niall1234 - I doubt there is anyone on this board who thinks it's the sole solution - but rail is way too little of the solution as it stands. Your reference to urban/rural ratios seems to me to be reminiscent of a census in the 1980s rather than the 2006 census, especially since Ireland is no longer urban or rural - suburban is a huge, new part of Irish demography.

bk

dowlingm wrote:

Niall1234 - I doubt there is anyone on this board who thinks it's the sole solution - but rail is way too little of the solution as it stands. Your reference to urban/rural ratios seems to me to be reminiscent of a census in the 1980s rather than the 2006 census, especially since Ireland is no longer urban or rural - suburban is a huge, new part of Irish demography.

The problem is that the suburban is far too widely dispersed and low density to make rail suitable for many suburban areas.

Of course if their is an existing rail alignment, then you should do everything possible to make the best use of it, more frequent service, longer trains, park and ride facilities, etc.

However there are many areas where rail just won't make sense and those areas should have a good road infrastructure.

Metrobest

I'd say the election will be pretty tight, but I hope the current government will shade it, even if the support of independents were required (similar to the 1997-2002 Dail). If FG and Lab insist in saying that we've never had it so bad, they'd do well to look at their performance in the 1980's - when I see the large 'Vote Labour' on Liberty Hall, what comes to mind regarding public transport are strikes, non courteous staff, unreliability, non cleanliness etc.

I think Fine Gael and Labour have been given a loud and clear message. The public did not want a left-wing government and voted accordingly. Unfortunately, the public, faced with the prospect of Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, voted in huge numbers for Fianna Fail as the face of the government, leaving the PDs in big trouble.

I'm disappointed to see the PDs share of the vote so reduced. Michael McDowell is the brighest politician of his generation and I know it's popular to dislike him but I am a big admirer of his courage and intellect. Having a strong PD presence in government has been central to bringing about Ireland's economic success and advancement, and I just hope that that can be sustained if the government takes on a very Green-Left hue.

I suppose the good news is FF/PDs may be able to cobble together a government with the independents, but the thought of a few parochial independents having a veto on things like the Dublin metro is not something that pleases me, but no doubt will thrill WRC supporters.

Metrobest

Stark wrote:

Funnily enough, the European cities with the worst bus services are those where the bus service was privatised!

Any stark statistics to prove that, or just another slice of empty rhetoric from you?

Irish and Proud

DerekP11 wrote:

Your understanding of rail transport in this country is on a par with Martin Cullen and FF. You are some spin Doctor. The Northern Commuter line is bursting at the seams. People are regularly fainting on dangerously overcrowded trains and many more are frequently left behind on the lovely long platforms you talk of.

FF and Luas? Try some facts that won't come across nearly as positive. In Government they are responsible for the fact that neither line is linked up and the project was delayed by years because of them.

New trains on the Cork line? What planet are you on when you speak of 125mph shortly? Firstly, we don't have any train capable of doing that speed. (not even the new ones you mention) The current loco hauling them can only do 100mph and the sections in which it can do that are very short. In fact Dublin Cork trains rarely hit the 100mph mark at any point. While the new trains were "designed" to travel at that speed, what we actually got was a bunch of carraiges that are hauled or pushed by a 13 year old loco. (in 1984 we bought carraiges capable of the same speed, but they never got there either) Furthermore these new carraiges will have to be "modified" before they can do 125 mph. The track has to be upgraded too. None of this has received or even been promised funding. Its an idea in the heads of IE management.

Don't spin your brains about rail, like some demented FF voter that has swallowed every piece of bull**** fed to you. For the record Im not affiliated to any political party and my vote was cast on the basis of getting some kind of reality applied to developing rail transport in this country. With FF or the PDs, I'd be wasting my time. Our rail network is still a shambles in terms of customer service, operation, reliability, speed and comfort. No amount of crap from Cullen and his bumchums can change that fact. When rail is discussed on radio, switchboards light up with horror stories. What your sweethearts in FF have delivered couild only have worked 20 years ago.

"A lot done, more to do".

"We're not there yet, but we're getting there".

Two slogans used by different entities around the time of the last election.

Get the picture? Or do I need to draw it for you?

Going by the above, you may not be politically affiliated to any party, but you certainly don’t come across to me as being exactly impartial in your viewpoints - Would I be right in guessing that you're ABFF? :eek: :rolleyes:

I maybe wrong about trains reaching 125mph, but I can assure you that the Northern Commuter Line which I regularly travel has improved vastly in the lifetime of the outgoing government - my sister travels on it everyday from Balbriggan (at rush hour) and says it's very busy, but OK. She also says that it’s rarely more than two minutes late - so there you go mate! I have travelled the LUAS several times and it's excellent - pity they didn't join up the two lines though, but what you conveniently omit is the fact that they joined the Red Line up to the DART at Connolly (not in the original plans), and will join the Green Line to both the Red Line and Maynooth Line. I hear that the Maynooth Line itself is way over capacity, but the Docklands station was built to allow more train schedules - these are being introduced in phases!

Finally, the tone of your reaction to me could only be described as extreme arrogance. If you have to rubbish and ridicule people with viewpoints contrary to yours, then that in itself signals a major flaw in your own argument! People who are confident in themselves see no need to put others down - not that I’d be a big enough fool to let you get to me!!!

That is all!

Irish and Proud

Metrobest wrote:

I think Fine Gael and Labour have been given a loud and clear message. The public did not want a left-wing government and voted accordingly. Unfortunately, the public, faced with the prospect of Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, voted in huge numbers for Fianna Fail as the face of the government, leaving the PDs in big trouble.

I'm disappointed to see the PDs share of the vote so reduced. Michael McDowell is the brighest politician of his generation and I know it's popular to dislike him but I am a big admirer of his courage and intellect. Having a strong PD presence in government has been central to bringing about Ireland's economic success and advancement, and I just hope that that can be sustained if the government takes on a very Green-Left hue.

I suppose the good news is FF/PDs may be able to cobble together a government with the independents, but the thought of a few parochial independents having a veto on things like the Dublin metro is not something that pleases me, but no doubt will thrill WRC supporters.

Yes, indeed the outcome is very bad news for the PDs - they're not my first preference, but the party has helped in giving this country a more competitive edge. I would also have to admire Mary Harney, even if she's controversial, for standing by what she believes is right - ie. the nurses strike. Michael Mc Dowell, although temperamental at times, has handled the so-called Bertie scandal very well. He was also very gracious in his defeat - I don't like him that much, but fair play to him just the same! The current PDs in general have behaved a lot better in an FF coalition than Labour - when rifts appeared with FF, the PDs would take responsibility rather than pull out for political gain. Also, they did get a fair bit of influence, but didn't try to wag the dog - in my estimation, they were pretty fair in their dealings!

Now, there seem to be two clear options for FF: FF, PDs and 4 Ind; or FF and Greens. Both coalitions should accumulate 84 seats. The greens, as long the roads programme continues, might give an interesting dimension to Irish politics. FF have rarely allowed the tail to wag the dog in coalitions, so hopefully, our inter-urbans are safe, even if the Greens get in! What the independents will demand is anyone's guess.

I'll leave it there.

DerekP11

Irish and Proud wrote:

Going by the above, you may not be politically affiliated to any party, but you certainly don’t come across to me as impartial in your viewpoints - I guess you are ABFF! :eek: :rolleyes:

I maybe wrong about trains reaching 125mph, but I can assure you that the Northern Commuter Line which I regularly travel has improved vastly in the lifetime of the outgoing government - my sister travels on it everyday from Balbriggan (at rush hour) and says it's very busy, but OK. She also says that it’s rarely more than two minutes late - so there you go mate! I have travelled the LUAS several times and it's excellent - pity they didn't join up the two lines though, but what you conveniently omit is the fact that they joined the Red Line up to the DART at Connolly (not in the original plans), and will join the Green Line to both the Red Line and Maynooth Line. I hear that the Maynooth Line itself is way over capacity, but the Docklands station was built to allow more train schedules - these are being introduced in phases!

Finally, the tone of your reaction to me could only be described as extreme arrogance. If you have to rubbish and ridicule people with viewpoints contrary to yours, then that in itself signals a major flaw in your argument! People who are confident in themselves see no need to put others down - not that I’d be a big enough fool to let you get to me!!!

That is all!

You talk like a politician and I assume you think like a politician, therefore Im probably wasting my time with you. So I say you're planning on using this response as a means to claim that because Ive reacted in this fashion, Im losing the argument. (very old school and very boring) Well, you're wrong. Im not arrogant nor am I losing any argument. Im knowledgable on rail matters. You on the other hand, have no clue whatsoever. (more arrogance???) Everything you have said on this thread is nothing more than political baloney. I don't have to be arrogant to see and state that fact. Your understanding of rail transport in this country is either based on politics or a very very simplistic viewpoint. Therefore you are either a FF prophet or just plain ignorant.

So Irish and Proud? Which one is it? Afterall you only joined this forum in the run up to election day, which means you probably missed years of debate on various rail horror stories that the last FF lead Government precided over.

Irish and Proud

dowlingm wrote:

Niall1234 - I doubt there is anyone on this board who thinks it's the sole solution - but rail is way too little of the solution as it stands. Your reference to urban/rural ratios seems to me to be reminiscent of a census in the 1980s rather than the 2006 census, especially since Ireland is no longer urban or rural - suburban is a huge, new part of Irish demography.

The main problem with railways regarding commuting is the last mile. In short, railways are very efficient, but because of their linear remit, they are not very flexible compared to road transport (ie. I would have to walk or cycle at least 3 miles to get to my nearest station). However, if the Greens do get into government with FF, we might see more connecting buses from rural towns to trains in several areas - this would make rail travel a lot more viable for many people (ie. if my nearest village/small town had a feeder bus, I'd only have to walk approximately one mile each way). Such services would also reduce the need for local car travel and thereby large car parks at train stations - this would also help in cutting fuel consumption.

Irish and Proud

DerekP11 wrote:

You talk like a politician and I assume you think like a politician, therefore Im probably wasting my time with you. So I say you're planning on using this response as a means to claim that because Ive reacted in this fashion, Im losing the argument. (very old school and very boring) Well, you're wrong. Im not arrogant nor am I losing any argument. Im knowledgable on rail matters. You on the other hand, have no clue whatsoever. (more arrogance???) Everything you have said on this thread is nothing more than political baloney. I don't have to be arrogant to see and state that fact. Your understanding of rail transport in this country is either based on politics or a very very simplistic viewpoint. Therefore you are either a FF prophet or just plain ignorant.

So Irish and Proud? Which one is it? Afterall you only joined this forum in the run up to election day, which means you probably missed years of debate on various rail horror stories that the last FF lead Government precided over.

I do come from a FF background, but kept an open mind regarding other parties up to a couple of years ago. Since then, it has become apparent that there's a concentrated anti FF effort which I think is an insult to Irish democracy. FG, Lab and others have spent their time in opposition heckling the government instead of what they're supposed to do - trying to get their policies implemented. This means urging the implementation of policies which are common with those of the government, while questioning ones that differ and putting forward an alternative. This didn't happen (I‘ve watched some Dail sessions on RTE) - instead the government was slated and heckled at every opportunity, while making mountains out of molehills regarding any controversy. Need I say more??? :rolleyes:

The behaviour described above has hardened my FF stance to the point where I’m about to join the party - I’m so disgusted at the level of recent FF bashing, but now the people from all walks who were involved (including those in media, forums etc) have been given a clear message by the people of this country.

Election 2007:
41.6% of first preference votes went to FF (same as 2002)
FF are on course to win 78 seats and the FG/Lab pact won’t reach that number
According to the exit poll, 53% of the people prefer Bertie Ahern over Enda Kenny
According to the same poll, well over 50% would like some form of coalition involving FF

Well done ABFF! :rolleyes:

BTW, I've been reading this forum for quite some time, but decided the join it when the level of government bashing became more apparent - I just wanted to level things up a bit - some people were just a total disgrace! :mad:

That is all.

DerekP11

You are trully beyond help and you don't commute by rail on a regular basis.

That is all, thank you and goodnight. You may have the last word and let it stand as a reminder to all rail commuters, that politicos really don't care above and beyond the "spin".

Irish and Proud, you are PJ Mara in disguise. Well done.

Irish and Proud

Irish and Proud wrote:

OK, you've got some good points there, but it's not an Irish solution to an Irish problem, but an English solution to an Irish problem. You have heard that many new motorway type roads in England have been simply called dual carriageways, because the word 'motorway' is virtually taboo over there!

I don't understand what you mean by an English solution??,
UK Dual carriageway specs are different to those of motorway -

• no hard shoulders
• same speed limit as motorway
• non grade separated junctions
• traffic light controlled junctions
• roundabouts
• farm/field access from carrageway
• speed cameras every few miles

Also many recent new roads in the UK are creating new routes (A14 in Northants for example) rather than replacing an existing route (new N6 for example).

dermo88

I judged Fine Gael on their past record, based on their performance in both 1982-1987 and 1994-1997. There was very little investment in the first instance, and in the second some catchup. However, there was a nasty element of abuse of CIE by their then Transport Minister, Michael Lowry, which I did not forget, and pointed out.

In the 1997-2007 period, Transport played catchup. Fianna Fail held the transport portfolio, and while investment has been unprecedented in all angles of transport, it is still a case of playing "catchup".

Lets look at the alternatives that the opposition had.

Olivia Mitchell would have gotten the transport portfolio under Fine Gael.

Who gets Transport this time. The Greens? Fianna Fail?

Because of our planning process, our tendering process and the beertent at the Galway races, its a poisoned chalice portfolio. Its almost as bad as Health .

Will the Interconnector go ahead, on time, on budget?
Will Navan go ahead?
Will the spin end?
Will the messing around end?

We'll get the spin and messing around. Eventually we will get there, but it will be a case of 5 years late, overbudget, and incomplete.

It will be better than nothing, but thats not what we should be aspiring to in Ireland. Watch out for the economic toilet mopping operation as the property market goes down, and a huge source of existing revenue plummets.

Under Olivia Mitchell, the rail network would be screwed. Meanwhile, lots of new rolling stock. Its good, but its not good enough.

Marks for the previous Fianna Fail administration, 55% C3.

Marks given for:

OnTrack2000
Mini CTC almost completed on all radial routes
New Railcar fleet, CAF stock, Rotem DMU's
Luas Green and Red Line (Not good enough)
Ennis line improved.

Marks deducted for:

No Interconnector
Green and Red line NOT linked up, and Ballymun Luas NOT done, as proposed under the original plan.
No Navan
Midleton late
CTC project messed up.
Metro North and Metro West.
Phoenix Park Tunnel.
Ticketting Fiasco.

The list goes on.

Who gets marks. For all her faults, Mary O'Rourke gets a high mark, and goes in as the best transport Minister for rail in my lifetime, and scores 70% for saving the Intercity rail network, but gets marks deducted for fudging around with Luas. Seamus Brennan gets a fail. Martin Cullen gets a fail, and I'd rather someone new took over, who can act on their word instead of talk. I'm trying to be kind to them. However, because of the time lag of transport related projects, the groundwork laid in one term goes forward to the next one. Therefore, its not a rewarding portfolio such as Finance, or Justice, where the measures taken are relatively instantaneous.

Going back further again, Jim Mitchell RIP gets a 55% mark for creating Iarnrod Eireann, but gets marks deducted for cutting investment, but that has to be looked at in view of the dire fiscal climate of the time.

Albert Reynolds gets a decent mark for forcing CIE to introduce Maynooth commuter.

This term, action, and no more poxy lines on maps. But lets hope that the groundwork and plans have been prepared and are ready to be implemented quickly in the next 5 years. But don't hold your breath. We'll come back in 2012 and we will still be disillusioned.

Feel free to disagree.

bk

What I think many people forget is that 5 years ago we were all complaining about road projects coming in very late and way over budget.

Yet lessons have been learned and problems fixed and at an incredible pace, we have the biggest road building project in Irelands history, with roads coming in well under schedule and under budget.

Of course many people don't want to give FF any praise for that, I do.

What I'm hoping is that the RPA and CIE can learn these lessons from the NRA and that future rail projects will come in on time and on budget.

Actually I think CIE have, their projects seem to quietly come in on time and budget (DART station lengthening, Dock land station, new Cork intercity trains and timetables), but my fear about CIE is that they seem to shy away from the bigger projects like higher speeds to Cork and in particular the interconnector. Unlike the RPA with Metro, CIE they have done an awful job at promoting the interconnector, most people haven't even heard of it and that puts in in danger of being delayed or canceled if there are cut backs.

The RPA definitely need to learn from the NRA. The first two Luas lines were late and over budget, but I'll give them some slack, we haven't built new rail infrastructure since the DART, so it was all new for them, hopefully they have learned their lessons and the new Luas and Metro projects will be much more efficient.

Victor

bk wrote:

Yet lessons have been learned and problems fixed and at an incredible pace, we have the biggest road building project in Irelands history, with roads coming in well under schedule and under budget.

Instead of complete by 2006 and costing 5-6 billion, it will be 2011 and be perhaps 15 billion - under schedule and under budget? :boggles:

Metrobest

Victor wrote:

Instead of complete by 2006 and costing 5-6 billion, it will be 2011 and be perhaps 15 billion - under schedule and under budget? :boggles:

The thing is, the original figures weren't plausible. I think we're now getting a more realistic delivery of the roads in terms of budgets and construction times.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

The thing is, the original figures weren't plausible.

Indeed, but why were implausible figures agreed to and promised? Why didn't heads roll?

bk

As Metrobest said, the original figures were bs. What is happening now is far more realistic and on target. I'm hoping that the same lessons can be learned in the big rail projects coming up.

Irish and Proud

Deleted User wrote:

I don't understand what you mean by an English solution??,
UK Dual carriageway specs are different to those of motorway -

• no hard shoulders
• same speed limit as motorway
• non grade separated junctions
• traffic light controlled junctions
• roundabouts
• farm/field access from carrageway
• speed cameras every few miles

Also many recent new roads in the UK are creating new routes (A14 in Northants for example) rather than replacing an existing route (new N6 for example).

You're quite right there mate, but what I really mean is that the English authorities tend to favour dual carriageways with free-flow conditions similar to motorways (ie. A42, A34, parts of A55 etc), which in turn, have almost the same environmental effect as their counterparts. However, these roads can be referred to as expressways (ie. A55 North Wales Expressway - mostly grade separated). Once such a road isn't a called a motorway, the authorities have far less trouble getting them built for the most part. Although HQDCs in Ireland are built to motorway spec, they're not so called, possibly for reasons similar to those in England - so by way of terminology, it's probably an English solution to an Irish problem.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

Victor wrote:

Instead of complete by 2006 and costing 5-6 billion, it will be 2011 and be perhaps 15 billion - under schedule and under budget? :boggles:

So, the government is completely responsible for the inflated costs? Many walks of life are also culpable for the above - farmers raising their land prices, construction wage, safety (well that’s not such a bad thing!) and material costs rising, more litigation by property owners etc. With the Celtic Tiger has come more money, with more money has come more greed. If we, the people, shouldn't have to take responsibility, what else can you expect - communism? :eek:

As for timing, the blame also lies between both the government and the people - it's simple mate, if we want a better country, then we all have to take more responsibility and do more of what’s in the national interest - now I know you do something, but many people aren't. If in doubt, just look at the litter on our streets, the binge drinking and drug culture - clear evidence of apathy.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

Irish and Proud wrote:

You're quite right there mate, but what I really mean is that the English authorities tend to favour dual carriageways with free-flow conditions similar to motorways (ie. A42, A34, parts of A55 etc), which in turn, have almost the same environmental effect as their counterparts. However, these roads can be referred to as expressways (ie. A55 North Wales Expressway - mostly grade separated). Once such a road isn't a called a motorway, the authorities have far less trouble getting them built for the most part. Although HQDCs in Ireland are built to motorway spec, they're not so called, possibly for reasons similar to those in England - so by way of terminology, it's probably an English solution to an Irish problem.

I'll leave it there.

Yes, an expressway (UK) is somewhere between a traditional dual carriagway and a motorway in specification, closer to motorway than dual carriageway, imho. (it's a motorway without a hard shoulder, emergency phones & restrictions to certain types of driver)

In the UK, Motorways are built by central government as part of national transport policy, as such they generaly don't benefit the locals, long distance traffic only traffic passing via the area. Most dual carriageways connect local towns together and are seen as more beneficial to the local population.

If this is an "English solution to an Irish problem" what's the Irish solution??

Irish and Proud

Deleted User wrote:

Yes, an expressway (UK) is somewhere between a traditional dual carriagway and a motorway in specification, closer to motorway than dual carriageway, imho. (it's a motorway without a hard shoulder, emergency phones & restrictions to certain types of driver)

In the UK, Motorways are built by central government as part of national transport policy, as such they generaly don't benefit the locals, long distance traffic only traffic passing via the area. Most dual carriageways connect local towns together and are seen as more beneficial to the local population.

If this is an "English solution to an Irish problem" what's the Irish solution??

In the 70's and 80's, the ‘Irish Solution’ (old saying I'm referring to!) would have been to 'fix' the initial problem of poor quality inter-urban roads by piecemeal - in other words, if any town along a major route became a bottleneck, the traditional solution by past governments would be to fund a short term cheap-fix several years later - like a mishmash of alternative streets joined up with short stretches of new road - ie. N9 through Carlow (now being properly by-passed), N6 through Ballinasloe (also being properly by-passed), former N18 through Ennis, former N4 through south Sligo etc.

Even when we had some money in the early to mid 1990's to build motorways, people would object and only some stretches would be built, because the political will wasn't there to get the full job done - ie. only parts of the M7 were built by 2000. The current government is in effect using the English solution of terminology by building long stretches of HQDC thereby avoiding the taboo M word while getting the job done - whether this is deliberate or not, I don't know!

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

Irish and Proud wrote:

In the 70's and 80's, the ‘Irish Solution’ (old saying I'm referring to!) would have been to 'fix' the initial problem of poor quality inter-urban roads by piecemeal - in other words, if any town along a major route became a bottleneck, the traditional solution by past governments would be to fund a short term cheap-fix several years later - like a mishmash of alternative streets joined up with short stretches of new road - ie. N9 through Carlow (now being properly by-passed), N6 through Ballinasloe (also being properly by-passed), former N18 through Ennis, former N4 through south Sligo etc.

Even when we had some money in the early to mid 1990's to build motorways, people would object and only some stretches would be built, because the political will wasn't there to get the full job done - ie. only parts of the M7 were built by 2000. The current government is in effect using the English solution of terminology by building long stretches of HQDC thereby avoiding the taboo M word while getting the job done - whether this is deliberate or not, I don't know!

I'll leave it there.

I understand you now, Motorways are often percieved as being not a benefit to the people who live next to them, but a HQDC is OK :rolleyes:

The UK solution in the 60's & 70's to town centre bottlenecks was generally to make most of the side streets surrounding the centre oneway, thus making the town into a big roundabout, try finding a town without one - except Milton Keynes.

Irish and Proud

Deleted User wrote:

I understand you now, Motorways are often percieved as being not a benefit to the people who live next to them, but a HQDC is OK :rolleyes:

In England, the terminology tactic is not actually targeted at local residents, but at national protest groups such as those involved in the M3 Tyford Downs and A34 Newbury By-pass confrontations. With this in mind, it is said that terminology does make quite a difference because many of the protesters involved in such confrontations are extremely ignorant.

In Ireland, we were exposed to non-local protests, although to a lesser extent - ie. M1 Broadmeadow Estuary, N11 Glen of the Downs, N4 Sligo Relief Road, and R118 Church Road widening in Dun Laoghaire etc. This may have prompted the government to build HQDCs instead of motorways - but I don't know.

I'll leave it there.

Irish and Proud

dermo88 wrote:

In the 1997-2007 period, Transport played catchup. Fianna Fail held the transport portfolio, and while investment has been unprecedented in all angles of transport, it is still a case of playing "catchup".

That's a very fair point - many public transport services remain wholly inadequate today, but the outgoing government had started from a very low base in 1997 - ie. we now have LUAS, but it's bursting at the seams in rush hour - yet the LUAS was a massive undertaking which at the same time is yielding many economic and social benefits. The same would apply to commuter rail.

dermo88 wrote:

Watch out for the economic toilet mopping operation as the property market goes down, and a huge source of existing revenue plummets.

This is why we must get the inter-urban motorways done! We need to create an economic spin in order to offset the property slump. We also need to increase our competitiveness as a nation.

dermo88 wrote:

Marks for the previous Fianna Fail administration, 55% C3.

I think that's fair and balanced - I would deduct marks for lack of proper urban planning causing our transport chaos (-40%) and project delays etc (-15%). So yes, 55% is about right!

dermo88 wrote:

Seamus Brennan gets a fail..

Disagree - the man didn't get enough of a chance. On the roads front, he performed extremely well - he was a major force behind the ‘Design and Build’ regime which included fixed price contracts. He came across as a 'don't bulls*** me' person and I'd say CIE was next on his hit list - he clearly wanted to give the taxpayer value for money - he stood up to people which is something that has to be admired!

dermo88 wrote:

Albert Reynolds gets a decent mark for forcing CIE to introduce Maynooth commuter.

Regarding the above, fair play to him! , but he performed very poorly on the roads front when he led two governments from 1991 to 1994.

dermo88 wrote:

This term, action, and no more poxy lines on maps. But lets hope that the groundwork and plans have been prepared and are ready to be implemented quickly in the next 5 years. But don't hold your breath. We'll come back in 2012 and we will still be disillusioned.

As far as the inter-urbans are concerned, they'll most likely be done. If the Greens get into power, they'll want the inter-connector built. Also, most LUAS lines should be done , especially with the Greens, although I don't know about the metro. We do have more challenging times ahead regarding the economy.

I'll leave it there!

D'Peoples Voice

Victor wrote:

Instead of complete by 2006 and costing 5-6 billion, it will be 2011 and be perhaps 15 billion - under schedule and under budget? :boggles:

victor,
I originally thought this too, but I must admit that was because I believed the spin coming out of the CIF. However, after learning that there is a competitive[\b] tendering process advertised across the whole EU, it meant that the Government got the best deal possible, or should do at least:o .

Anyway only last week the CIF said they were going to go to the European court to 'find against' Ireland in the validity of this tendering process, becuase it meant that developers had to take on all the risks of delays. This they felt was leading to Irish companies losing out to foreign companies. Now, if as you say, these contracts were being agreed at twice the price, then do you not agree that there would be some buffer zone for the companies to cover any possible fines for delays.:rolleyes:

aboitiz

Metrobest wrote:

Any stark statistics to prove that, or just another slice of empty rhetoric from you?

I can only speak about the city bus lines in Spain and I can tell you that it's "vox populi" that since the eighties some public lines that were once in private hands have improved dramatically their conditions. Good investment and good public management (rare in Spain before). On the other hand the private and only one bus service in the province of Malaga, Portillo SL, is an absolute disaster as far as I know and many of you probably know from your holiday time.

It maybe fails "private competitivity" or maybe public management can be good sometimes.

Regards.

Metrobest

aboitiz wrote:

I can only speak about the city bus lines in Spain and I can tell you that it's "vox populi" that since the eighties some public lines that were once in private hands have improved dramatically their conditions. Good investment and good public management (rare in Spain before). On the other hand the private and only one bus service in the province of Malaga, Portillo SL, is an absolute disaster as far as I know and many of you probably know from your holiday time.

It maybe fails "private competitivity" or maybe public management can be good sometimes.

Regards.

I don´t know about the bus services in Andalucia so I can´t comment on the quality of public Vs private services in that relatively poor region, but I do know that Barcelona has a number or private bus operators which are fully integrated into the city transport system. They do the job for lower levels of subsidy than the public operators and that is why they are there - in a city dominated by socialists and left wing ideologies.

Even the socialist dogs on the street know that competition works and that private companies do the job better than inefficient state monopolies like CIE.

In the Irish context, where CIE does face competition, such as the inter-city bus routes to Belfast and Galway, it is evident that competition is good for everyone as the services are more frequent, cheaper and faster. It is not hard to make the leap of faith to believe that bus services in Dublin will benefit similarly, like Barcelona, through the introduction of private bus operators into an integrated system.

aboitiz

Malaga and its Costa del Sol are not precisely “poor areas”.

Indeed Barcelona Public Transport is integrated too by some private companies serving some lines as the Airport and other tourist lines but keeping most on the public management. I can't tell you the level of subsidy but Catalans are known by their finance administration skills so therefore they probably endeavour to have it low. With regards to the ideology, I can't tell you if it's necessary to be left or right to serve with proper criteria the needs of population. I think that is an old debate overcome by some other circumstances and goals as serving well your electorate for the benefit of people and for perpetuating yourself in power.

Is always clean competition? Are private companies always more efficient? I used in my message the adverb “sometimes”. I spoke about the places that I know like Malaga or my own country, the Basque Country where the people level of satisfaction about the Public Transport run by Public Management (bus, Metro, train...) is quite high. Obviously these places are very few to get final conclusions.

You know better than me CIE, their current capacity to face competition and the good performance of an integrated system. I had the pleasure of staying in Ireland for a long time and checking that Public Transport needed urgent measures for its improvement. I hope that all the big investment made in the last years it’s accompanied by a better service in all senses through competition or not.

dermo88

Some countries are better than others. Privatisation does not always work, nor does Nationalisation.

In the British experience, if there is local authority subsidies, regulation and supervision, such as in West Midlands country, then you have an acceptable level of service. Its surprisingly good value for money.

By contrast, Bristol, or anything owned or operated by First Group leaves a lot to be desired. First Group are the herpes of British public transport.

Dublin Bus is inadequate, but before we judge them, lets look at their farebox/cost ratio. Not only is it one of the lowest in Europe, its one of the lowest in the world. This is the legacy of the hard times of the 1980's, when it was forced to be efficient.

No matter what form it takes, the subsidy will need to increase, fares reduced to truly reflect the quality of the service delivered.

markpb

dermo88 wrote:

Dublin Bus is inadequate, but before we judge them, lets look at their farebox/cost ratio. Not only is it one of the lowest in Europe, its one of the lowest in the world. This is the legacy of the hard times of the 1980's, when it was forced to be efficient.

The environment in which DB operates is just as much a problem as the subsidies. New or modified routes have to go through the seemingly anti-DB bureaucrats in dept. of transport, new (or extra) buses have to be approved by the minister for transport, road closures happen without DB being consulted or even informed and the level of funding and work put into bus priority measures by the city is laughable.

Metrobest

aboitiz wrote:

Malaga and its Costa del Sol are not precisely “poor areas”.

Indeed Barcelona Public Transport is integrated too by some private companies serving some lines as the Airport and other tourist lines but keeping most on the public management. I can't tell you the level of subsidy but Catalans are known by their finance administration skills so therefore they probably endeavour to have it low. With regards to the ideology, I can't tell you if it's necessary to be left or right to serve with proper criteria the needs of population. I think that is an old debate overcome by some other circumstances and goals as serving well your electorate for the benefit of people and for perpetuating yourself in power.

Is always clean competition? Are private companies always more efficient? I used in my message the adverb “sometimes”. I spoke about the places that I know like Malaga or my own country, the Basque Country where the people level of satisfaction about the Public Transport run by Public Management (bus, Metro, train...) is quite high. Obviously these places are very few to get final conclusions.

You know better than me CIE, their current capacity to face competition and the good performance of an integrated system. I had the pleasure of staying in Ireland for a long time and checking that Public Transport needed urgent measures for its improvement. I hope that all the big investment made in the last years it’s accompanied by a better service in all senses through competition or not.

Being from the beautiful Basque country you´ll no doubt be familiar with the transformation of Bilbao and its wonderful modern new metro. That´s the kind of thing we need in Dublin but, Aboitiz, if like me you grew up in Ireland and endured years of terrible CIE service, you might feel the same way as I do: that CIE has a culture that cannot adapt to transport in the modern age.

Luas aside, I have yet to hear from a visitor or temporary resident in Ireland who looks at Dublin´s public transport system and thinks that they would like a similar system in their home city. Is that because CIE gets a ´small´ subsidy or is it because CIE is so badly managed? I choose the latter explanation.

The propensity to deliver poor service may not be as strong in other nationalised bus operators in EU cities, but I do have a gut belief that we can´t get better services in Dublin just by pouring more subsidies into the begging bowl of Dublin Bus.