Room Treatment Thread

TelePaul

Can we try get something started here on room treatment? It's a pretty mammoth undertaking but I can honestly say I have no clue as to the acoustic properties of my room.

frobisher

It's a whole science onto itself. I've been building up/pairing down my recording set up and while there is of course always room for improvement I feel that the only major obstacle block I have left is room treatment. Thankfully my room isn't as bad as some but it still needs it.

Many people start with looking at their analogue/digital conversion and build their system from there. The truly pro way to do it is to start at the whole other end with room treatment and monitoring, the idea being that without it you can't really hear what's going on so you're at a tremendous disadvantage from the start. It makes a lot of sense but the reality is that great music can still be made in bad rooms.

The first big studio I worked in started without any treatment and then over the period of a month we built bass and broadband (wide frequency range) absorbers to the instructions of a specialist. The difference wasn't absolutely monumental but it was definitely there and in the world of recording you strive for every edge you can get so it was definitely worth it. Especially in the quality of the mixes that then left the studio. It was like the bass was now a solid block that had clear lines that you could clearly hear the start and end of rather than a muddle of bottom end that while it may have had energy, didn't have definition. Although it was the more experienced engineers that got the most out of it, the young trainees still made soup.

I recently got myself 4 panels of rockwool that I'm going to wrap to hold in the dust and improve the look and place on the walls. I'm not acoustician but I know that the idea is the sound waves travel into the rockwool through breathable material and the fine threads vibrate which turns the energy in the sound wave into energy vibrating the rockwool which then dissipates as heat although incredibly tiny levels. Although I was once told that some bass absorbers have been known to rise a degree or two after alot of work, but it seems far fetched to me. There is great info out there on the net all about this stuff. Google the name Ethan Winner and you'll be on the right track.

Paligulus

I'm in the process of buying a house (3 bed room) at the moment (with my girlfriend). Of course, one of the bedrooms is going to be my 'music room'!! And to be honest, it'll be one of the main reasons for a taking on a mortgage (oh yeah, and domestic bliss etc...)!!!!!

Because of this I have been researching room treatment on the net. BIG MISTAKE!!!!! Its bad enough knowing that you'll never have a perfectly treated room, but most of the treatments (bass traps etc...) would require me to have a room twice as big as I will (it's a box room)!!!!!!! Ah well...

I suppose I can hang some sheets or something....

frobisher

Paligulus wrote:

I'm in the process of buying a house (3 bed room) at the moment (with my girlfriend). Of course, one of the bedrooms is going to be my 'music room'!! And to be honest, it'll be one of the main reasons for a taking on a mortgage (oh yeah, and domestic bliss etc...)!!!!!

Because of this I have been researching room treatment on the net. BIG MISTAKE!!!!! Its bad enough knowing that you'll never have a perfectly treated room, but most of the treatments (bass traps etc...) would require me to have a room twice as big as I will (it's a box room)!!!!!!! Ah well...

I suppose I can hang some sheets or something....

Sheets won't do anything for you. And alot of supposedly acoustic foam won't either. Check out this company that are very well respected for supplying bass and broadband traps to small and home studios: http://www.realtraps.com/

I intend on building my own. Anyone in Dun Laoghaire good at DIY?!

Niall - Dahlia

frobisher wrote:

Many people start with looking at their analogue/digital conversion and build their system from there. The truly pro way to do it is to start at the whole other end with room treatment and monitoring

Yeah I completely agree. As it happens I was down looking at home studio today that's expanding a bit that had some cracking equipment, but the the acoustic treatment (or lack thereof) was a bit of an afterthought. Some real potential, especially with the live room which was large and had a nice high ceiling, but no real acoustic treatment at all, save for some thin insulation attached to the walls. Same with the control room, which is even more important when it comes to acoustic treatment and how sound waves travel around the room.

But then how many people are lucky enough to be in a position where they have the budget to build a purpose built studio with adequate acoustic treatment and equip it with gear?

Might wanna check this out if you're interested in some homemade acoustic treatment, if it hasn't already been linked to: http://www.samplecraze.com/tutorial.php?xTutorialID=28

TelePaul

Niall - Dahlia wrote:

But then how many people are lucky enough to be in a position where they have the budget to build a purpose built studio with adequate acoustic treatment and equip it with gear?

That's the thing. I don't think I'm the only one who is inclined to get the gear first then throw some money into treatment as I have it...a few hundred here, a few hundred there etc.

Strings.ie

TelePaul wrote:

That's the thing. I don't think I'm the only one who is inclined to get the gear first then throw some money into treatment as I have it...a few hundred here, a few hundred there etc.

I think we all start that way. Sometimes it takes experience to hear problems in your recordings but acoustic treatment is indeed a science.

When I built my studio a year or two ago I was lucky to be able to design it with acoustics in mind but that is not an option for everyone. Realtraps are pretty good but you can make your own for a fraction of the price using rockwool, a basic frame and some nice materiel stretched over it.

empirix

Following on from this, i have now set up my own little studio in my attic, its about 3 metres X 4 metres, i am "trying" to produce electronic music/DnB etc and i was wondering if a few sheets of this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Thick-Studio-Acoustic-Soundproofing-Foam-Tiles-36x36_W0QQitemZ260121534465QQihZ016QQcategoryZ15199QQcmdZViewItem

and this : http://www.soundproofing.org/sales/prices.html


What yee reckon - wasting my time with doing this?

cheers

Strings.ie

empirix wrote:

Following on from this, i have now set up my own little studio in my attic, its about 3 metres X 4 metres, i am "trying" to produce electronic music/DnB etc and i was wondering if a few sheets of this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Thick-Studio-Acoustic-Soundproofing-Foam-Tiles-36x36_W0QQitemZ260121534465QQihZ016QQcategoryZ15199QQcmdZViewItem

and this : http://www.soundproofing.org/sales/prices.html


What yee reckon - wasting my time with doing this?

cheers

Mmm, I'm no expert but I believe there are a lot of 'acoustic' treatment products on the market that have very poor performance. Foam density is a major factor as is the type of foam design. When I was researching there was a lot of tempting foam tiles on ebay but the lads on the http://www.soundonsound.com/forum are very clued up on this so I'd do some research there.

Auralex is pretty good but not cheap. As I said before, your cheapest option is rockwool. You want the semi-rigid one which I think is called RJ45. It can perform as well as the most expensive foams.

With your type of music I imagine you would need bass trapping.

Townlad

hi folks...im converting a room but its gonna be on the cheapo...whats the story with the egg box cartons..i have a friend that can get me any amount..the thing is do they HELP sound proof the room ..my plan is to put a layer of 14mm styrofome on my wall and stick the boxes over the styrofome..is it true that this redueces sound escaping the room..peace.....TowN....

Frankiestylee

I think this thread is about room treatment as opposed to sound proofing, but I reckon the egg boxes might work at kinda difusing the bounce back, but I doubt they'd be good at sound proofing so that people outside can't hear. For sound proofing definitly go for rock wool. I've no experience with bass traps, reflection etc, but if you just want to stop noise from leaking out then rockwool is great. Throw it up from wall to ceiling and cover it with mauslum (sp?). Depending on where the room is etc you'll have to do the ceiling and I dunno how you're gonna do the floor if it's an upstairs room. The hardest thing will be doors. Depending on the size of the room a lot of people will suggest building a room inside a room.

TelePaul

Egg boxes don't work and constitute a major fire hazard oddly enough - best steer clear!

Strings.ie

Yeah, Egg boxes are a common myth and do nothing I'm afraid.

Frankiestylee

Surely they do something? I mean a soundwave bouncing off a flat surface is differant then a soundwave bouncing off a textured surface.

Strings.ie

Frankiestylee wrote:

Surely they do something? I mean a soundwave bouncing off a flat surface is differant then a soundwave bouncing off a textured surface.

The fact that it can bounce off is the point. Acoustic treatment is about controlling sound waves.

Frankiestylee

Yeah but it does have some effect. Singing in a tiled bathroom vs singing in an eggbox covered room will result in completely differant effects. While it might not completely stop sound, it does have an effect. I'm not suggesting egg cartons are any wonder solution or any solution at all, but they do have an effect.

eoin5

They probably add the sound of rattling eggboxes

Strings.ie

Frankiestylee wrote:

Yeah but it does have some effect. Singing in a tiled bathroom vs singing in an eggbox covered room will result in completely differant effects. While it might not completely stop sound, it does have an effect. I'm not suggesting egg cartons are any wonder solution or any solution at all, but they do have an effect.

A tiled room causes massive reflections creating a reverb/echo. The sound just bounces around the walls. With normal plasterboard walls there is a certain degree of absorption.

However, egg boxes have really bad performance. They may have a tiny effect on the high end frequencies but you might as well stick paper posters up.

Acoustic treatment is required for a number of reasons. You may want to treat a room to make it more suitable for recording certain instruments. Some studios are completely dead air spaces. They have absorption everywhere.
Acoustic instruments actually sound better with some room reflection. Acoustic guitars for example sound so much sweeter with a wooden floor.
I believe a balance of absorption and reflection is the key to a good sounding room.

On the other side of the coin you have your mixing room. The problem here is trying to create an accurate listening environment. Frequency's bouncing around your room cause other frequency's to cancel out giving you a distorted perception of the actually sound you are listening to. It might sound great in your room but play it on the hifi at your mates and the mix is terrible. It's a real science and I am no an expert but taking the time to do a little research and applying the correct treatment for your room is well worth the effort and if you are handy at the diy it needn't be expensive.

Frankiestylee

Ah don't get me wrong, I wouldn't dream of using egg cartons for any music related purpose, just sayin.

Is wood a good substance for the aul music? I have a nice seomra-esque yoke that I was considering using for doing some recording. It's all wooden, with 3 double glazed windows on one side and a single window on the joining side. Would it be an idea to track acoustic guitar there?

TelePaul

Frankiestylee wrote:

Ah don't get me wrong, I wouldn't dream of using egg cartons for any music related purpose, just sayin.

Is wood a good substance for the aul music? I have a nice seomra-esque yoke that I was considering using for doing some recording. It's all wooden, with 3 double glazed windows on one side and a single window on the joining side. Would it be an idea to track acoustic guitar there?

I think so. I am in an odd situation as I track in a conservatory...wooden floors and glass ceilings. It's too much reflection really, I usually leave the floor exposed but cut down on wavforms with 'gobos' or go-betweens. They're pretty useful for cutting down on sound and easily made...my bro and I made 3 in a half hour, 6 X 4 connected with coach bolts so they can be assembled into various shapes...handy for throwing in front of a drum kit too, or an amp if you wanna cut out some of the room. Here's a pic:

thebookofbob

went into a decent studio a long while back , the experience was eerie. At the time I knew nothing about Acoustics.. All I remember was walking along an echoey corridor, the door opening & into the main studio room.. The room was pretty much empty at the time but it was like someone was stealing my voice.. really weird first of all , like if I'd gone partially deaf.
I'd say that's what you'd be aiming for

cornbb

Studio live rooms shouldn't necessarily be completely acoustically absorbent - although it depends on the type of music, certain types and quantities of reflections are usually desirable.

Anechoic chambers on the other hand are designed to be 100% acoustically dead, typically for acoustic research/testing purposes, eg testing the frequency response of a microphone or speaker. Have never been in one myself but have heard they are pretty freaky. Apparently hand rails are necessary as you lose your ability to balance properly. John Cage described hearing nothing but a very high frequency (the activity of his central nervous system) and a very low one (the blood flowing through his veins). Very eerie!

Frankiestylee

Wow... that chamber is freaking me out just by your description! Are there any accessible ones in Ireland, perhaps in a University I could maybe blag my way into? I'd love to be that freaked out.

Niall - Dahlia

cornbb wrote:

John Cage described hearing nothing but a very high frequency (the activity of his central nervous system) and a very low one (the blood flowing through his veins). Very eerie!

Yeah I remember reading similar, being able to hear your blood flowing through your veins. Would really love to visit an anechoic chamber. There's one in Queen's University Belfast apparently. Not that they'd let the rabble in!

frobisher

Anechoic chambers are very odd. I almost fell over in one, I had to concentrate because my balance just seemed so weird.

Killing the room acoustics up to a point is great but can also be over done. I had a studio for a while that had a pretty large and decent live room with high ceilings and in my wisdom I installed far too much acoustic absorbing material. Stoopid. Sun studios in Temple Bar has a room that I think can be great sounding for drums, it's a granite floor and glass walls!

cornbb

Frankiestylee wrote:

Wow... that chamber is freaking me out just by your description! Are there any accessible ones in Ireland, perhaps in a University I could maybe blag my way into? I'd love to be that freaked out.

There's one in UL shared by the physics and music tech departments, you'd probably need to know someone to get in there though.