Questions & Answers ~ Election Special

swiss

I have to agree that Q&A was very interesting this week. Obviously this close to the election every party would be under additional pressure to perform and bring their points across. Cowen was in bullish form as usual, but I thought Rabitte fielded him very well. I think at one point in the debate Liz O'Donnell called Rabitte 'cranky' and while that might have been overstating it there was certainly a more sombre demeanour about him than I have seen of late.

The main issues about the economy and public services were re-aired of course, and I felt that Fianna Fáil delivered their message about their handling of the economy and Fine Gael and Labour delivered their message about the state of public services. However I thought Eamonn Ryan made some very, as another poster said, salient points about our economic competitiveness and the threats that inflation and poor value for money bring to that competitiveness. I'm quite surprised that we haven't heard more about this because one concern of mine would be the issue of competitiveness in a global economy, burgeoning personal debt, balance of trade deficits and so forth.

Liz O'Donnell really, really annoyed me. She sounded condescending and patronising as if the success of the economy is all down to PD policy and handing the reigns over to the 'lefties' would be the fastest way to collapse it. A mirror of the PD posters screaming "don't throw it all away". Scaremongering.

Sinn Féin delivered their standard boilerplate message, but no more than that really. Mary Lou was quite articulate, but didn't send my heart racing in any sense of the term.

I was quite disappointed with Simon Coveney. I felt he was a little unsure on his points, as if he hadn't prepared adequetely. Perhaps he needs more experience or maybe he was being drowned out by the Rabitte/Cowan face-off but he did come across as being the weaker representative. However when he did deliver his message it was sensible, and he made some good points about the polling.

Hard to pick a 'winner'. If I had to say, I think Labour came out of it very well, and Fianna Fáil fought their corner in Cowens own inimitable way. Fine Gael did not shine but were by no means disgraced either, and the other two representatives were 'also rans'.

The Saint

Tristrame wrote:

I thought Ryan of the Greens was pretty good last night actually,they should have trotted him out more often.

Mind you Biffo's comment to him " look if the carbon foot print was a 24hr clock...Ireland would be about 7 seconds of it" was a pretty good retort in the finding a sense of perspective kind of way.

He should have responded with a comment on our carbon emissions per capita or our ecological footprint per capita where we aren't too hot. It just seemed like a cheap way of avoiding the topic by blaming everyone else.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi_percap-environment-co2-emissions-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_eco_foo-environment-ecological-footprint

ButtermilkJack

funktastic wrote:

I think John Bowman is able to get them to answer the questions. He pushed Rabbitte into a corner about a coalition with FF after the election when he was trying to brush it aside. I feel he would have been much better than Miriam O'Callaghan for the leaders debate last week.

I actually think he was quite biased in dealing with this issue...

The question, which was quite a good and fair one, was put to Pat Rabitte first who said (not word for word but as close as I can remember), 'I don't think that will happen, I think we will see a majority...' but before he could get another word out John Bowman started raising his voice and jumped down his throat claiming that was not what was asked and that he should stop trying to avoid the question.

When all the commotion had settled he turned to Brian Cowen and asked the same question. Cowen started by stating... 'I don't think that will happen, the people want FF to continue and I think we will see a mjority...' and John just sat there looking on allowing Cowen to continue.

Next he asked the Green candidate the same qwuestion and when he tried to say it wouldn't happen John treated him the same as Pat Rabitte.

Very biased in my opinion, and I was quite disappointed because I do believe that he is a great presenter.

dodgyme

I thought Rabbitte was excellent on Q&A. McDowell won the small leaders debate but Rabitte was on fire on Q&A. Good to see since I will be voting Lab and FG.

ateam

Did anyone else think Rabbitte came across as annoyed and cranky? I got that impression of him last night. Fine Gael's spokesman on the show was largely ineffective, Bruton should have went on.

For me Cowen comes across as a bit smug. Does Mary Lou have a chance on Thursday?

nacho libre

McDowell did not win the small leaders debate.

I thought Rabbitte came across poor last night. He looked tired, and cranky and rose to Cowen's bait. I get the impression he analyses his performances on tv and if that's true he won't be happy about last night. Cowen is an arrogance and condescending sod. "The people will deicide"
Really??
I'm glad Coveney brought up his flip-flop on stamp duty. As it was a bit rich of Cowen to criticise others for flip-flopping.

Mary Lou did well but it was easy in a way as Sinn Fein know they won't be in power. I think Sinn Fein will achieve their objective at this election.

How bad was Liz O'Donnell?? Poor Micheal must have been incandescent with rage at her abysmal performance last night.



exchange of the night:"We already have a two-tier health system"

"Precisely"

I think it will be Labour, led by Howlin, and Fianna Fail who form the next Government

Viscosity

ateam wrote:

Did anyone else think Rabbitte came across as annoyed and cranky?QUOTE]

Yeah I felt that too. He appeared red in the face for most of the exchanges with Cowan and was invading Coveneys space while trying to shout at Cowen.

Jonny Arson

I thought it was pretty bad Q&A last night which was the rambling Rabbitte and cocky Cowen show.

For the first time last night I thought Rabbitte looked shaken. In fairness, he did hit home Cowen on FF's scaremongering spin on FG/Lab policies but he was cranky and did bitchslap Coveney on a couple of occasions. Cowen's arrogance as seen last night will only turn people off FF.

Eamon Ryan was the star of the show. He was the only one who make logical sense without letting his ego get in the way. As other people have mentioned, he has been the first politician to speak out on the true state of the way our economy is being run. Cowen's bodylanguage was intriguing and could only come out with the usual 600,000 jobs argument which was an unconvincing answer with regards to where our economy is going for the next 5 years. Ryan's performance solidified my vote for the Green Party on Thursday.

lucernarian

Compared to some of the shows in this election, I cannot see how last night's Quanda was bad. The debate and passion and indeed the arrogance of some of the opposing candidates made it all the more entertaining. Certainly, the Green candidate looked more mature than the rest.

Compared to his usual performances in front of the FF faithful, he did look a little shaken. And I think Pat Rabbitte wasn't rambling. On the contrary, he quipped a lot, and rather negatively too.

Valentia

Tristrame wrote:

Mind you Biffo's comment to him " look if the carbon foot print was a 24hr clock...Ireland would be about 7 seconds of it" was a pretty good retort in the finding a sense of perspective kind of way.

Which is the same as saying our tiny island is only 7 seconds worth in the scale of a 24 hour world. It's the only 7 seconds you or I have though so it's damned important to me anyway!

nesf

Tristrame wrote:

Mind you Biffo's comment to him " look if the carbon foot print was a 24hr clock...Ireland would be about 7 seconds of it" was a pretty good retort in the finding a sense of perspective kind of way.

Yup, that pretty much sums up why I don't want to see the Greens in Government. From a realists perspective we're really not a big factor regarding global warning when you get down to it. We could mass pollute our little hearts out and so long as the US, the rest of Europe and China etc cut down on emissions it would make little difference to the fall in emissions globally. Not that I want to see that or anything but the point stands nonetheless.


Edit:

Tristrame wrote:

That may be so but I'd imagine there were a lot of people watching that were making similar facial grudges whilst listening to Mary Lou.
I know I did when Mary lou expressed disdain about the others going on about figures all the time.

Imagine that-having to talk about figures when you are proposing something-perish the thought.

Yeah, it was a farcical comment. Sure it would appeal to some of the SF voter base who only want to hear the words equality and rights over and over again but I imagine that a lot of people (including myself) have a lot of trouble taking seriously any politician who makes such comments.

AidoCQS

Rabbite is coming off as the only adult in these debates, he used to come off as an arrogant twat, now the serious demeanour suits him

AidoCQS

Tristrame wrote:

Mind you Biffo's comment to him " look if the carbon foot print was a 24hr clock...Ireland would be about 7 seconds of it" was a pretty good retort in the finding a sense of perspective kind of way.

You should rewatch that again and see the skill at which a Politician answers the question they want to answer, not the one they were being asked

The Green party spokes man, in response to a point about our super economy was stating that we are not as super as we would have ourselves believe. ie we were dependant on fossel fuels, or fuels we have to buy elsewhere - Biffo ignored this point opting to respond with a pre engineered cliche to the issue of pollution. Its sutle but its no less an avoided answer.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

Mind you Biffo's comment to him " look if the carbon foot print was a 24hr clock...Ireland would be about 7 seconds of it" was a pretty good retort in the finding a sense of perspective kind of way.

Yes but it is the 7 seconds that we are responsible for it seemed to me a justification for FF/PDs doing absolutely nothing on the issue.

AidoCQS

Carbon emmissions is about pollution - fair enough

Dependancy of follil fuels is a whole other issue - Its about choosing to build roads instead of rail (increasing the use of petrol).

Do you know the central difference between LA and NYC - its a subway.

oscarBravo

AidoCQS wrote:

Do you know the central difference between LA and NYC - its a subway.

Both cities have subways.

AidoCQS

Yes, LA got one 90 years later than NYC and its going to take them generations to catch up in terms of.. what do they call it now 'upscaled workforce'

I.e. Go to NYC if you want to work in finance, LA if you want to be an actor and dont mind porn as a good plan B

irish_bob

mary lou waffled as usual , as i always say about mary lou
she could speak continously for 10 minutes and when she was finished, you would not remember a single thing she said , its just noise
shes an empty pretty vessel
i thought both pat rabbitte and brian cowan were excellent
eamon ryan was as good as could be expected , simon coveny was poor
liz o donnell , well i find it very hard to say anything negative about the lovely liz but she was simply window dressing

blast05

Mind you Biffo's comment to him " look if the carbon foot print was a 24hr clock...Ireland would be about 7 seconds of it" was a pretty good retort in the finding a sense of perspective kind of way.

Right, Ireland has about 250% of the weighted average of CO2 emissions per capita per country according to the www.nationmaster.com website. So given a total population on the planet of ~6 billion and the population of Ireland of ~4 million then, for Ireland's weighted average to come in at the average CO2 emission per capita then Ireland would need a population of ~10 million, 2 and a half times our current.

Now 10 million as a percentage of 6 billion is ~0.167%. Given that there are 86400 seconds in 24 hours, then 0.167% of 86400 seconds is 144 seconds, i.e.: if the global carbon footprint was a 24 hour clock, then Ireland's contribution would be 144 seconds

144 seconds versus Cowens figure of 7 seconds .......... sounds like Cowens department of finance attempting to calculate exchequer returns :eek:

AidoCQS

irish_bob wrote:

mary lou waffled as usual , as i always say about mary lou
she could speak continously for 10 minutes and when she was finished, you would not remember a single thing she said , its just noise
shes an empty pretty vessel
i thought both pat rabbitte and brian cowan were excellent
eamon ryan was as good as could be expected , simon coveny was poor
liz o donnell , well i find it very hard to say anything negative about the lovely liz but she was simply window dressing

I have spotted that - her style is too rehearsed, she reminds me of one of those booksmart people who can regurgatate endless theory. Now she does look cute doing it, but I wish she would own it, get angry for once, pretend at least that she is not reading a party manifesto, people want to see passion in a debate

redspider

blast05 wrote:

Right, Ireland has about 250% of the weighted average of CO2 emissions per capita per country according to the www.nationmaster.com website. So given a total population on the planet of ~6 billion and the population of Ireland of ~4 million then, for Ireland's weighted average to come in at the average CO2 emission per capita then Ireland would need a population of ~10 million, 2 and a half times our current.

Now 10 million as a percentage of 6 billion is ~0.167%. Given that there are 86400 seconds in 24 hours, then 0.167% of 86400 seconds is 144 seconds, i.e.: if the global carbon footprint was a 24 hour clock, then Ireland's contribution would be 144 seconds

144 seconds versus Cowens figure of 7 seconds .......... sounds like Cowens department of finance attempting to calculate exchequer returns :eek:

The problem with live debates and all these figures going around is that politicans can and do use figures to mask the realities. The well-knkown phrase, statistics, damned statisics and lies, applies in full.

And with a live debate there isnt the time to stop, pause, and get the real data. Not even the Dept of Finance itself is able to produce accurate data, so these budget forcasts that each party is producing and costings are just estimates, with many figures 'guessed at'. Then FF blame SF for not having done costings, which is another way of saying for not making up figures. Yes, estimates are made up figures!

> Mind you Biffo's comment to him "look if the carbon foot print was a 24hr clock...Ireland would be about 7 seconds of it" was a pretty good retort in the finding a sense of perspective kind of way.

The problem with 'biffos' soundbite is that many people/voters accepted it as a solid argument. Of course it isnt as it doesnt consider a) our population size, and b) our obligations as part of the EU or to the world at large.

Obviously if we want China and the USA and Asia, India, Africa and other places to be environmentally responsible, then we MUST act as an example and be if anything a standard bearer. Whatever our percantage, whether 144 secs or 7 secs, we should be reducing that to as little as possible. If the 144 secs is true, and it seems to be reasonable, it should give some people yet more ammunition as to the bona fide's and trust you can place on politicians in general. They abuse figures to their own ends - in other walks of life we term it 'lying'.

If you look at this list:
www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi_percap-environment-co2-emissions-per-capita

Ireland is the 17th worst offender in the world out of 176 countries measured. The source however is from 2003 and is based on data up to 2000, so is already 7 years out of date!
"World Resources Institute. 2003. Carbon Emissions from energy use and cement manufacturing, 1850 to 2000. Available on-line through the Climate Analysis Indicators Tool (CAIT) at Washington, DC: World Resources Institute"

The other point that the Green Guy made was that we are buying CO2 credits. This means that we are still polluting but reducing our figures through money. Sounds like the mafia buying forgiveness from the pope for murders to me. It doesnt absolve us.


I dont like the way that Cowen more or less bullies his way in arguments and debates, I dont like people like that. He shouted most and shouted longest, and its not the first time he has done it. Alas, it is probably a vote winner though.

"For the meek shall inherit the earth" ...... my axrse.

Redspider

ps: Ireland's population is approx 4,239,848 (source census 2006)
The world's population in July 2007 is estimated to be 6,671,226,000.
That's 0.06355425524483805525401178134274 %, give or take! ;-)
There are 86,400 seconds in a day.
Our CO2 polution/emission rate is about 2.5 times the global average,
in fact 2.538380952380952380952380952381 times the global average according to those figures at that website.


So, this results in 139.38472306620359479009448295292 seconds according to my calculations!

ie: Cowen was off by a factor of 19.91. No wonder he can never get his budget estimates accurate. Gross, Net, balderdash more like. Not that any/many of the politicians get their figures accurate.

debaters1

Well, imho i thought that Mary Lou was at sea. Her major weakness (there are others) is her inability to grasp figures. Anyone, and i mean anyone, can (and should) have an idea as to how the country should and should not be run, but if you are then placed in said position of running the country, you cannot avoid the econmics inherent in such a job. It is unavoidable.

Therefore, I dont trust anyone that tells me how the country should be run but doesnt grasp the basics figures.

Regarding Simon Coveny, he was pillared by his prospective Coalition partner and it must have been uncomfortable for FG supporters to watch. He had valid points that were lost and tried to hammer home weaker points. in short, not good. Oh, and on a side note, in political terminology, you can say that someone is misleading the public, or the policy is a 'sham' 'con' or doesnt hold up under scrutiny, but you never ever call someone a liar, especially outside of the Dail. He may well pay for that in both the short and long term.

As for Liz, it seems the greatest thing for the PD's in her opinion was the surge in support for FF so that they may return to Government on FF's coatails.

Eamon Ryan is by far and away the most intelligent and capable Green TD. He is so far ahead of them he would lose and find them in a heartbeat. He spoke well and when he was less 'Opposition' more prosective governing TD he was able to make his points stick.

Now, to the meat of the debate, Cowen Versus Rabitte. Well, this was an exciting debate that imho, did fall in the favour of Cowen. While both of them got angry and shouty and were pointing the finger at eachother, he took dealt with Rabitte on the economy issue given Rabitte's we'll €230 million in a bottom drawer remark, which Rabitte the compounded by saying 'Ah sure you've been taking in extra money all over the place'. Having run a business well myself (and having acheived a better return than forecast) the fundamental rule is NEVER to assume the following year will be the same. This is just sensible. So for a potential Minister of Finance to suggest that this is how he would pay for things is well, retarded. Im only 24, but i remember watching the news from arounf the age of 6 or 7 and hearing the unemployment was 17% and that x company was closing and, in particular, that 25,000 30,000 35,000 young people were emigrating each year. Im now a graduate myself with a 1 year old daughter and i want the last 10 years to continue, they haven't (and not by a long shot!) been perfect, but i am able to say with almost certainty that i'll be in Ireland and have a job in 5 years time and with child will be in school. I like being in this position and while FF and the greatest, they are the best we have.

PS the Peace in Ireland thing is also nice for all us latent Nationalists anyway and the Shinners can claim what they like, but Bertie and Blair built that success!

Heinrich

debaters1 wrote:

Well, imho i thought that Mary Lou was at sea. Her major weakness (there are others) is her inability to grasp figures. Anyone, and i mean anyone, can (and should) have an idea as to how the country should and should not be run, but if you are then placed in said position of running the country, you cannot avoid the econmics inherent in such a job. It is unavoidable.

Therefore, I dont trust anyone that tells me how the country should be run but doesnt grasp the basics figures.

Regarding Simon Coveny, he was pillared by his prospective Coalition partner and it must have been uncomfortable for FG supporters to watch. He had valid points that were lost and tried to hammer home weaker points. in short, not good. Oh, and on a side note, in political terminology, you can say that someone is misleading the public, or the policy is a 'sham' 'con' or doesnt hold up under scrutiny, but you never ever call someone a liar, especially outside of the Dail. He may well pay for that in both the short and long term.

As for Liz, it seems the greatest thing for the PD's in her opinion was the surge in support for FF so that they may return to Government on FF's coatails.

Eamon Ryan is by far and away the most intelligent and capable Green TD. He is so far ahead of them he would lose and find them in a heartbeat. He spoke well and when he was less 'Opposition' more prosective governing TD he was able to make his points stick.

Now, to the meat of the debate, Cowen Versus Rabitte. Well, this was an exciting debate that imho, did fall in the favour of Cowen. While both of them got angry and shouty and were pointing the finger at eachother, he took dealt with Rabitte on the economy issue given Rabitte's we'll €230 million in a bottom drawer remark, which Rabitte the compounded by saying 'Ah sure you've been taking in extra money all over the place'. Having run a business well myself (and having acheived a better return than forecast) the fundamental rule is NEVER to assume the following year will be the same. This is just sensible. So for a potential Minister of Finance to suggest that this is how he would pay for things is well, retarded. Im only 24, but i remember watching the news from arounf the age of 6 or 7 and hearing the unemployment was 17% and that x company was closing and, in particular, that 25,000 30,000 35,000 young people were emigrating each year. Im now a graduate myself with a 1 year old daughter and i want the last 10 years to continue, they haven't (and not by a long shot!) been perfect, but i am able to say with almost certainty that i'll be in Ireland and have a job in 5 years time and with child will be in school. I like being in this position and while FF and the greatest, they are the best we have.

PS the Peace in Ireland thing is also nice for all us latent Nationalists anyway and the Shinners can claim what they like, but Bertie and Blair built that success!

Try reading this through your rose coloured glasses.

I would not like to gauge how a country is run on the basis of these evening entertainment discussuions but more so on this and similar articles! How you ran the business (yours by the way?) is irrevelant to how the country is being mismanaged. There is no accountability as can be witnessed my Madame Harney who referes all questions to the HSE who "do not comment on individual cases".

LordSutch

For those of you who saw the Q&A Election Special (RTE1 Monday evening), just wondering what you thought about the calibre of the participants? I thought McDowell was strong as ever (Love him or loath him) I thought Cowan was also powerful, I thought Liz McDonnell was also on top of any questions thrown at her, but I was shocked by Mary Lou McDonald's lack of detail on Economic or socail issues ~ she seemed to be totally & completly out of her depth, (speaking entirely in sound-bites) and yet, more than likely she will be voted into the Dail this Thursday (Tomorrow)!

Anyone got any ideas or thoughts on her, or any other Politicians who seem to be completly out of their depth?.

jjbrien

there already is a tread running on this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055096103

LuckyLloyd

I think redspider's two contributions to this thread are excellent. Good job sir.

Having read the various threads on this forum reviewing the various TV debates of the last two weeks - it seems clear to me that if you are a supporter of a particular party or are involved with them in any fashion, you will see what you want to see.

Rabbitte and Cowan went at it hammer and thongs. They both shouted at each other, raised their voices and wagged their fingers. How could you pick a winner between the two? What we have seen is those supporting coalition parties declaring for Pat - the Finna Fail faithful claiming Brian was more impressive. Ho Hum.

I personally felt that Coveny looked unsure, underprepared and nervous at times.

McDonnell rolling her pretty eyes up to heaven and smirking at anything she didn't liked was hilarious really. "LEFT WING GOVERMENTS WILL SPOIL YOUR FUTURE PEOPLE!!" Such scare - mongering is funny when you consider that there is no viable "left - wing goverment" on the table before the electorate tomorrow. Any realistic combinations will have a grounding in conservative and right leaning ecomomic policies. I have learnt what McDowell and McDonnell dislike and detest from the TV of the past two weeks. I think I dislike and detest them for it.

Cowan and Rabbitte were both passionate and informed. They perform well on camera and look commited to their parties and policies. I won't be voting for either of them or their parties (Rabbitte is in my constituency): but they came across to me as the most experienced politicians - and the two most competent of those invited to attend.

Ryan impressed in a quiet sort of way. Good economic points. Didn't lose the cool. Looked assured. Mary Lou just put forth the message as Adams did last week. And that message will appeal to Sinn Feinn voters - and keep them happy.

What has the TV changed? Who knows. Irish people will have various reasons for their votes. Their is still a lot of it that is based on personallity. Still a lot of it that is based on local and regional concerns and perceptions. Those who frequent this forum would like to think that the analysis of the general populace is intricate and sees through the perceived inconsistencies of the party they dislike. I'm not so sure.