Unsecured wifi networks

Moriarty

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Makes me think... The number of people without encryption is astounding. I installed a new wireless router in my sister in laws, or at least I thought I did until I couldn't get the VOIP aTa set up. I spent ages on it witholut success so I brought wireless router and ata home. It was only then I realised that I was setting up port forwarding etc on the wireless router of one of their neghbours instead ( using wireless laptop).

It's the opposite where I live. 16 networks in range of my place, only 1 is unencrypted.. and that one has been secured in some other way. I was surprised by it too, I was expecting the majority to be wide open.

paulm17781

Moriarty wrote:

It's the opposite where I live. 16 networks in range of my place, only 1 is unencrypted.. and that one has been secured in some other way. I was surprised by it too, I was expecting the majority to be wide open.

I used to get 5 unsecured wireless networks and 2 secured from my apartment. My internet connection went down on Sunday and I needed to do something urgently so was left with no choice but to leach, I found 12 secured networks and 3 unsecured and I couldn't connect to the unsecured ones.


Note: I am aware leeching is wrong and have my own internet connection, this really was urgent.

JNive

either the unsecured ones are just ad-hoc points, or they could have MAC address limititation or Static IP setups.

thefinalstage

paulm17781 wrote:

I used to get 5 unsecured wireless networks and 2 secured from my apartment. My internet connection went down on Sunday and I needed to do something urgently so was left with no choice but to leach, I found 12 secured networks and 3 unsecured and I couldn't connect to the unsecured ones.


Note: I am aware leeching is wrong and have my own internet connection, this really was urgent.

Its only wrong if you get caught.

I set up both of my neighbors internet connection. I told them to type in passwords that I didn't see so as to resist temptation later.

thebman

Its basically someones own fault if they don't encrypt their network.

Its like putting up an apple tree in front of everyone and then saying please don't eat my apples. Someone is going to take an apple.

paulm17781

brim4brim wrote:

Its basically someones own fault if they don't encrypt their network.

Its like putting up an apple tree in front of everyone and then saying please don't eat my apples. Someone is going to take an apple.

Do you steal from shops if no one is looking? Would you steal a car if they keys were in it?

I see you point and mainly agree but it would be nice to live in a society where people didn't think "it's not looked so I'll take it."

landmonster

paulm17781 wrote:

Do you steal from shops if no one is looking? Would you steal a car if they keys were in it?

I see you point and mainly agree but it would be nice to live in a society where people didn't think "it's not looked so I'll take it."

Like that poxy ad in the cinema about "You wouldn't steal a bag. You wouldn't rob a car? So why rob films?"

Twats. I wasn't going to steal a car but you've made me so angry I'm going straight out to nick one.

thefinalstage

paulm17781 wrote:

Do you steal from shops if no one is looking? Would you steal a car if they keys were in it?

I see you point and mainly agree but it would be nice to live in a society where people didn't think "it's not looked so I'll take it."

No to the shop, yes to the car.

Its their own damn fault for leaving the keys there. The shop is business as usual.

AntiVirus

If someone is stupid enough have their wireless network open to the public thats there own fault if there bandwidth gets stolen. I bet they don't go to bed at night with there cars unlocked.

RangeR

AntiVirus wrote:

If someone is stupid enough have their wireless network open to the public thats there own fault if there bandwidth gets stolen. I bet they don't go to bed at night with there cars unlocked.

Is it so hard to imagine that the majority of people in Ireland are not computer literate?
They might not even KNOW that they can secure their wireless.
They might not know HOW to do it, even if they were aware.
They might not be aware of the pitfalls of not enabling security.

Just because a network is unsecured, an outside party getting onto that network is breaking the law.

Really, some peoples closed mindedness astounds me sometimes.

chopperbyrne

I have no idea about the other providers, but Eircoms netopia routers come with 128bit WEP turned on by default.

They may have changed over to WPA since I left them. They were very security conscious when I was there.

delop

IrishTLR wrote:

Is it so hard to imagine that the majority of people in Ireland are not computer literate?
They might not even KNOW that they can secure their wireless.
They might not know HOW to do it, even if they were aware.
They might not be aware of the pitfalls of not enabling security.

Just because a network is unsecured, an outside party getting onto that network is breaking the law.

Really, some peoples closed mindedness astounds me sometimes.

Well said! a shameful attitude above... What would Jebus do...

RangeR

delop wrote:

What would Jebus do...

Probably sack Matt Groening for creating it in the first place

thebman

IrishTLR wrote:

Is it so hard to imagine that the majority of people in Ireland are not computer literate?
They might not even KNOW that they can secure their wireless.
They might not know HOW to do it, even if they were aware.
They might not be aware of the pitfalls of not enabling security.

Just because a network is unsecured, an outside party getting onto that network is breaking the law.

Really, some peoples closed mindedness astounds me sometimes.

Its not other peoples fault that they are not computer literate.

In fact, wireless routers come with manuals too so you don't have to be computer literate, you just have to be literate.

There are numerous howto's online and there is also common sense. Hey if I can connect to it without wires, what stops my neighbour doing it? Magic??

edit----

Also can you quote me, where in law it says it is illegal because people can connect by accident using Windows with the connect to non-prefferred networks option enabled so I doubt it is illegal as your neighbour could be doing it without even knowing it.

JNive

if a router is left 'open', publicly broadcasting, and unencrypted, then it is open for public use, unless before or during connection, the user is advised that access is restricted for authorised users etc etc etc, which i dont think the average router has.

For example, if you log onto an FTP or SSH server you will often see such a message.

If you log into your work computer which is part of a domain, you will often see such a message.

So while a user may unintentionally leave it unencrypted there is technically nothing illegal about anyone connecting to it.

RangeR

brim4brim wrote:

In fact, wireless routers come with manuals too so you don't have to be computer literate, you just have to be literate.

There are numerous howto's online and there is also common sense. Hey if I can connect to it without wires, what stops my neighbour doing it? Magic??

I don't mean this in a bad way, but that's another closed minded attitude. The fact that an instruction manual comes with nearly every computer peripheral is irrelevant. If someone is not computer literate [and at the extreme end of the scale, are afraid to mess with computer parts or settings], they are not even going to read the manual as it "should just work". I'm generally talking about the more mature users [not necessarily OAP's].

Just because you know how to research something that you don't understand. Just because you have the confidence to perform those actions, even if they are spelled out for you, doesn't mean that 100% of the population can do it too.

Just on this one point

you just have to be literate.

There are many, many people in Ireland who are not literate. You would be surprised how many people there are like that out there. You may find it hard to believe but it's true.

However, we are getting way OT at this point.

edit----

Also can you quote me, where in law it says it is illegal

I'm not a lawyer and don't profess to be but I will try to get you a quote on this. It's not rocket science. You are "breaking and entering", whichever way you look at it.

because people can connect by accident using Windows with the connect to non-prefferred networks option enabled so I doubt it is illegal as your neighbour could be doing it without even knowing it.

That is a totally farcical analogy. Ignorance is no defence when breaking the law. Just because Windows allows you [depending on certain settings] to connect to any open access point doesn't mean it's not illegal. Even I know that.

Gran Hermano

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hereford/worcs/6565079.stm
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0418/wifi.html

Interesting story from the UK last month where 2 people were arrested
and cautioned over unauthorised wi-fi access.

My thoughts are that ignorance on behalf of the owner of the wi-fi router is
no excuse for not having WPA security up and running. ISPs supplying kit
have a responsibility for locking the kit down upon installation.

I suppose if NTL are supplying kit and not encrypting it'd be an interesting
case if they were to complain about usage caps. Surely they don't have
a leg to stand on if they don't prevent your neighbours from leeching.

Edited to add:
The warning was for 'dishonestly obtaining electronic communications services with intent to avoid payment'.
I believe it's similar to our fraud laws here.

paulm17781

I agree with IrishTLR my parents are in their late 60s, they are very computer literate for their age. There is no chance they would understand how to set up wireless security. People who do not understand this stuff are often afraid to mess with it in case they break it.

Brim4brim, it must be wonderful to be as great as you. I hope all the people who are afraid to set up wireless security or do not understand how it works and why they need it suffer a slow painful death. They clearly deserve it for not being up to your superior literate standard. You are a wonderful person. :rolleyes:

RangeR

brim4brim wrote:

Also can you quote me, where in law it says it is illegal

An interesting read. I don't know how correct this is, though.

jor el

IrishTLR wrote:

The fact that an instruction manual comes with nearly every computer peripheral is irrelevant.

Then they could simply ask in the shop where they buy it. Most places will advise, or for a fee set it up for you.

I'm not a lawyer and don't profess to be but I will try to get you a quote on this. It's not rocket science. You are "breaking and entering", whichever way you look at it.

That's just plain wrong. It's nothing near breaking and entering and I'm doubtful that connecting to someone else's unsecured wireless network is against any law, civil or criminal. It is however immoral.

That is a totally farcical analogy.

So someone who knows nothing about wireless networks and ends up connecting to the wrong one is totally in the wrong, but another person who knows nothing about wireless networks and leaves the security completely open is totally in the right? How does that work?

Ignorance is no defence when breaking the law.

And yet it's perfectly acceptable for someone to use it as an excuse when their unsecured network is leeched from?

Just because Windows allows you [depending on certain settings] to connect to any open access point doesn't mean it's not illegal. Even I know that.

It's not illegal to connect to an open access point. That link just posted is interesting, but seems to relate to people obtaining illegal access to a Teleco, using a cloned SIM or hacking into the exchange/phoneline somehow.

All this really should be in a thread of it's own.

RangeR

And finally, the Irish Statute Book states in Section 9 of Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001

9.—(1) A person who dishonestly, whether within or outside the State, operates or causes to be operated a computer within the State with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, is guilty of an offence.


(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.

Now while this particular law maybe open to interpretation, it looks pretty clear to me. Up to 10 years imprisonment if found guilty :eek:

Is that ok, brim4brim?

ixoy

I've just moved into an appt and for reasons that are best left to my sanity, I'm going to opt for NTL.

When I scanned for nearby networks, I noticed both routers (an Eircom and an NTL) were using WEP. Do ISPs still use WEP by default? Also am I free to switch out NTL's NetGear router with my own Linksys?

watty

Yes you can use your own router, You just have to use the NTL modem.

AntiVirus

IrishTLR wrote:

Is it so hard to imagine that the majority of people in Ireland are not computer literate?
They might not even KNOW that they can secure their wireless.
They might not know HOW to do it, even if they were aware.
They might not be aware of the pitfalls of not enabling security.

Just because a network is unsecured, an outside party getting onto that network is breaking the law.

Really, some peoples closed mindedness astounds me sometimes.

:rolleyes:

Ignorance is not an excuse. Its called living it the real world. If they don't no what they're doing thats their problem. Don't come crying about. They should learn to RTM.

BobbyD10

Howdy folks,

I was trying to secure my router the last few days as I have just recently got the broadband in and was wondering if anyone knows how to go about doing this..

Ta.

dub45

ixoy wrote:

I've just moved into an appt and for reasons that are best left to my sanity, I'm going to opt for NTL.

When I scanned for nearby networks, I noticed both routers (an Eircom and an NTL) were using WEP. Do ISPs still use WEP by default? Also am I free to switch out NTL's NetGear router with my own Linksys?

Any Eircom modem/routers that I have come across seem to come with WEP set up by default - this baffles me as WPA is far easier to use and more secure.

The only explanation I can think off is, that as far as I know, the wireless 'b' standard did not seem to be able to accomodate WPA so maybe Eircom figure there is still a lot of 'b' stuff out there?

Moriarty

These are OT posts split off from this thread.

Moriarty

.. and just to add, it is a criminal offence to connect to any computer network without the owners explicit consent. That goes for wifi hotspots (secured or not) just like a cabled network in an office.

You may not like it, but that's what the law says.

AntiVirus

BobbyD10 wrote:

Howdy folks,

I was trying to secure my router the last few days as I have just recently got the broadband in and was wondering if anyone knows how to go about doing this..

Ta.

This link here should help you out. Find your modem/router and click on the link and follow the instructions.

http://www.portforward.com/english/routers/wireless/routerindex.htm

Dankoozy

I use unsecured networks all the time . i don't even secure my own but i live in the middle of nowhere. mostly when I use someone elses its just for checking my email, ssh into my server from my phone

unless you use up so much bandwidth that you push someone over their monthly limit causing them to get a higher bill you havn't stolen anything from them. I use maybe a few kilobytes - a MB or two at the very most

at the end of the day, the law is slightly out of date - you don't take anything , just send a signal through their equipment. they could stop it but don't even take the basic steps not to.

the way the law is now basically means that even if the wifi hotspot says "Free bandwidth" and you use it you could still get in trouble. I have actually seen purposely set up free wifi and it had a name like linksys or something. there was a sign up saying free wifi somewhere but the only AP was that one

cast_iron

Dankoozy wrote:

unless you use up so much bandwidth that you push someone over their monthly limit causing them to get a higher bill you havn't stolen anything from them.

WRONG. You have taken a portion of their download capacity for your own gain without their permission, and that IS ILLEGAL.

Dankoozy wrote:

the law is slightly out of date - you don't take anything , just send a signal through their equipment.

WRONG. You have taken a portion of their download capacity for your own gain without their permission, and that IS ILLEGAL.

Dankoozy wrote:

the way the law is now basically means that even if the wifi hotspot says "Free bandwidth" and you use it you could still get in trouble.

WRONG. You have taken a portion of their download capacity for your own gain WITH their permission, and that IS LEGAL.