Affordable Housing

Stephen P

I know what you're saying there Shane, it makes sense. It's just when the council got back to me today regarding the clawback amount (79k) it got me thinking is it right?? I should get a letter from them in a couple of days stating exactly how much it will cost to buy them out. I may not sell immediately, I might just buy them out or just stay put and see how the market goes. I think I will be in for a long haul if I put it on the market.

The_Conductor

I don't think you can "buy-them-out", in the same way that you can under the Shared Ownership Scheme. The aim of the scheme is to assist first time buyers in the purchase of their property. If you are indeed in for the long haul- the clawback is reduced by 10% per annum on a flat line deduction scale from year 10 onwards (to 0% at 20 years). Obviously in the case of the vast majority of properties (I guess) purchased under the scheme, people saw them as the first step on a ladder and intended to trade up when the opportunity arose. This was a big mistake in my opinion- regardless of price, they should not have purchased if it was unsuitable, even as a stop-gap measure.

I firmly believe that the information you got from the council was incorrect- it stems from a misunderstanding of whether the clawback is calculated from the original purchase price or the open market selling price (if you do the calculation on former basis, you do actually get the 79k that they mention). This is incorrect, and is clearly not what is either in the examples, or in the Departmental guidelines. There are similar problems at present with 2 councils, regarding the tenant purchase scheme- they are not being allowed deviate from the guidelines, and have initiated further clawbacks.

Assume that the workings in the example are correct- and you will receive sufficient to cover your mortgage from the sale (plus whatever capital repayments you may have made already), and that is the extent of it. Its not a bad deal at all, in all honesty- as you are fully insulated against the fall in property values. Serves the council right for not using a proper valuation in the first instance- the main gainer in the little mess is of course the builder who overvalued the OMP of the unit in the first place, however you are also gaining significantly from the council effectively underwriting the depreciation of the asset.

Dirk Gently

Just a quick qustion.

With house prices dropping, likely to drop more, is there any danger of a cut off point for the scheme as a whole if market prices drop to a certain level in the months / years to come?

Would people recommend getting on the list now in the hope of getting a property 6 months or so down the line after more price drops. I know there's no time frame as such but I'm trying to estimate the best time to apply to maximise the chance of getting a decent property at the best price. Right now affordable homes aren't too afordable once you factor everything else into it on top of the basic mortgage.

Also, will the property be valued when the offer is made or are the prices backdated to a point when it was last valued. I want to make sure I dont end up with a house priced at market values months before I get an offer. The real value could be significantly less by the time an offer is made.

Also, a very basic question, what kind of mark off the market value is offered. e.g. you do you pay 60%/ 70% or whatever of the market value? Is there a set percentage off market value for the scheme? Just want to get an idea what I will qualify for. Really don't want a tiny one bed apart for the next 20 years +.

loosewire

hi guys, been looking at some of the posts and i was wondering if any one knows if i could use my "affordable home" which i live in full time as security for another mortgage on a property that i would like to buy and plan to rent it out?

Victor

Its sounds like a slightly hairbrained scheme. You would have to check what your agreement with the council says.

At most, a bank would loan you

"The value of the new property" less "a big chunk because of market insecurity" plus "you equity in the exising property" less "a big chunk because of market insecurity" less "a big chunk because someone else already has a mortgage on it.

Which amounts toa smallish amount of money unless you have substantial equity and good earnings.

punchestown

loosewire wrote: »

hi guys, been looking at some of the posts and i was wondering if any one knows if i could use my "affordable home" which i live in full time as security for another mortgage on a property that i would like to buy and plan to rent it out?

What a most apt username!

The_Conductor

clown bag wrote: »

Just a quick qustion.

With house prices dropping, likely to drop more, is there any danger of a cut off point for the scheme as a whole if market prices drop to a certain level in the months / years to come?

Would people recommend getting on the list now in the hope of getting a property 6 months or so down the line after more price drops. I know there's no time frame as such but I'm trying to estimate the best time to apply to maximise the chance of getting a decent property at the best price. Right now affordable homes aren't too afordable once you factor everything else into it on top of the basic mortgage.

Also, will the property be valued when the offer is made or are the prices backdated to a point when it was last valued. I want to make sure I dont end up with a house priced at market values months before I get an offer. The real value could be significantly less by the time an offer is made.

Also, a very basic question, what kind of mark off the market value is offered. e.g. you do you pay 60%/ 70% or whatever of the market value? Is there a set percentage off market value for the scheme? Just want to get an idea what I will qualify for. Really don't want a tiny one bed apart for the next 20 years +.

Several councils have already (in April) exhausted their annual allocations for affordable housing (the Galway council being among the bigger offendors in this respect) and had to approach central government for additional funding to meet the commitments that they have already signed up to. Central government has told them to cut the strings- they are not getting additional money. So- is there a possibility that if house prices drop below a certain level (as a multiple of the average industrial wage), that the scheme would be dropped- certainly there is. Its also possible that the whole scheme of mortgage interest relief for both owner occupiers and investors may be radically revisited (as per the OECD report which the government commissioned which was out on Tuesday).

Would people recommend getting on the list now- with a view to purchasing property 6 months down the road- personally no, I wouldn't. I feel that normalcy may not return to the market for 2-3 years. Read the reports from IIB, Anglo Irish and some of the other market commentators and draw your own conclusions.

In a falling market its a bloody good idea to get the property valued as close to the closing of the sale as possible. The opposite is the case in a rising market- as a lower valuation provides additional insulation for the purchaser. There are a few threads in this forum from people in a similar situation- I'd suggest you dig them out for further info.

The maximum price you will be allowed to pay for a property along with the percentage discount to the market price will depend on a number of factors- principally among which is your proven earnings and the nature of your profession. A recently qualified accountant in Blanchardstown with a salary of 45k recently qualified with Fingal for an affordable house in Ongar, valued at 400k with a 25% discount to the market price. It varies, you will need to contact your council with your details (ultimately you will require P60s, tax returns, bank statements etc- to prove income and outgoings).

There are a lot of apartments, not necessarily 1 beds, on the scheme- not because they are trying to shoehorn people into them on the affordable housing scheme- simply because a shocking amount of our recent housing stock is of this nature. Do not buy somewhere that is unsuitable for your needs, regardless of the price. Regarding the time frame- the clawback (of the original discount as a percentage of the selling price) will always leave sufficient to repay your mortgage leaving you debt free, should you decide to offload the property (providing the market price does not fall below the price you actually paid, in which case there would be no clawback applicable). Its a comfort zone for you financially. You can sell at any stage- the 20 year rule is merely the timeframe it takes the clawback to become extinguished.

S.

irlrobins

loosewire wrote: »

hi guys, been looking at some of the posts and i was wondering if any one knows if i could use my "affordable home" which i live in full time as security for another mortgage on a property that i would like to buy and plan to rent it out?

And if you can afford to pay two mortgages (one on AH and one on rental property) then you shouldn't be considered for AH in the first place. AH is there to help people to get their own home, not as a stepping board to a property portfolio.

starky

loosewire wrote: »

hi guys, been looking at some of the posts and i was wondering if any one knows if i could use my "affordable home" which i live in full time as security for another mortgage on a property that i would like to buy and plan to rent it out?

I will forgo the usual AH is not designed for profit making blah blah blah as its been said so many times on this and other forums and I think it’s a given that every one know this.

I can’t see a bank lending you all that much on the strength of an AH. Depending on your % discount, you have to remember that you don’t own 100% of the property. So for augments sake say you got your AH for €265 with a 35% discount, making the market value of it €400,000. In theory you have €140,000 in equity from day one. The problem is that this is not really equity in the tradition sense of it. The council owns this equity, as such you can’t borrow on it, nor attempt to cash it in, as its not yours.
In order to assess what you might be able to borrow you have to consider:

What was your original AH purchase price
What is your claw back percentage
What is the current marked value of the house
How many years are you into your AH agreement
How much of your original mortgage have you paid off

LOLA08

Hi
Does anyone know what are the chance of getting the price of the clawback reduced by the Council. My apt was valued by the bank 55,000 less then what the Council valued it at. Its not worth what the council valved it at. anyone else in the same boat? I have rang the Council and sent in a copy of the banks valuation, they said they will have a look at it.
that was over 2 wks ago. rang a couple of times and they arent giving me any answers. any advice would be much appreicated.

Thanks

The_Conductor

LOLA08 wrote: »

Hi
Does anyone know what are the chance of getting the price of the clawback reduced by the Council. My apt was valued by the bank 55,000 less then what the Council valued it at. Its not worth what the council valved it at. anyone else in the same boat? I have rang the Council and sent in a copy of the banks valuation, they said they will have a look at it.
that was over 2 wks ago. rang a couple of times and they arent giving me any answers. any advice would be much appreicated.

Thanks

Is this pre or post purchase?
Everyone's apartment is worth less than they were nominally worth a few months ago. If you've already purchased the apartment, current guidelines will preclude councils from modifying the clawback arrangement. If you have not yet signed the paperwork- then you are in a very strong position to argue to have it revalued, and it would be a very good idea to fight as hard as possible to have it done so.

S./

LOLA08

thanks for your reply, yes i have signed the paperwork already, as they only give you 2wks to sign your acceptance letter and return it. if you dont do it within the 14 days it is considered a refusal. I then had to go and get the valuation done, and get the keys etc for the Banks to do the valuation. I have sent in the valuation letter from the bank to the council, they are just giving me the run around.

The_Conductor

LOLA08 wrote: »

thanks for your reply, yes i have signed the paperwork already, as they only give you 2wks to sign your acceptance letter and return it. if you dont do it within the 14 days it is considered a refusal. I then had to go and get the valuation done, and get the keys etc for the Banks to do the valuation. I have sent in the valuation letter from the bank to the council, they are just giving me the run around.

Strictly speaking- they are not supposed to change the valuation following receipt of your acceptance. Finances are rapidly becoming a massive issue under the AH scheme for most councils- as central government have advised there is no additional cash to bail out over expenditure by councils. While its not impossible that they will agree to a revaluation, it is highly unlikely. Once you signed the paperwork its difficult to modify the agreement- but not impossible.

S./

LOLA08

Ok thanks for that, looks like I will have a battle on my hands, at least I know what I am facing. Even if i got it reduced by 20,000 i'd be happy.
thanks for your reply.

starky

LOLA08 wrote: »

Hi
Does anyone know what are the chance of getting the price of the clawback reduced by the Council. My apt was valued by the bank 55,000 less then what the Council valued it at. Its not worth what the council valved it at. anyone else in the same boat? I have rang the Council and sent in a copy of the banks valuation, they said they will have a look at it.
that was over 2 wks ago. rang a couple of times and they arent giving me any answers. any advice would be much appreicated.

Thanks

Correct me if I am wrong but the letter you sent back is just a letter of offer acceptance. So you are still not set in stone with regard to the price. You have to weigh up the pros and cons of AH to decide if you are getting value for money. You can still pull out of the AH deal right up till you have signed the final contracts, so If you try to have the house re-valued and get no where you can pull out. I am sure there will be a queue of people lined up to buy the property if you don’t.

The AH place I can getting is fairly big (67 msq), its in the docklands in D2 and a two bed, apart from lack of a parking space it really ticks all my boxes so I would not be too concerned if the valuation was a little out as I am happy to live there long term and can most definitely manage the mortgage. As it happens they have fairly valued it as far as I can tell. (Bank 50,000 more then council’s valuation) If it was a one bed not in this decent location then I would have turned down the offer.

My main point is that even though you have sent in your provisional acceptance offer you can always try and lobby the council to re-value, if they wont then you have two choices, take the place as the size and location may outweigh the minor problem of 10/20 k overvaluation or decide that the overvaluation is just too high, 50/80+ and decide not to pursue the offer as its just not worth it.
I would most definitely advise you not to buy a place on AH unless its absolutely right for you as you are tied into a mess of legalities and you will exhaust your FTB status too.

LOLA08

Hi Starky

Thanks for your reply. Well i am delighted with the offer of the apt it was my frist choice and its a 2 bed apt, in a perfect location for me. I will not be selling in the 20 years, this is going to be my home and thats it. but i would like the claw back to be reasonable just in case. it was way over priced, just for the future, and a bit of security as well.

theTinker

Hi Everyone,

Hoping some learned and experienced souls can advise me on this:

I made an application to south dublin county council in April 2007. So its been a full year now since i got the confirmation letter acknowledging my application with a reference number.

Ive been working hard, climbing the salary ladder as fast as i can and saving my deposit as best I can afford.

I haven't contacted them to check on my application as I know it takes a long long wait. I am unsure if i am suppose to be contacting them with updates in my salary. (from 29k then, to 34k now). and my savings from 5k to 11k. I can now save about 1k a month (i pay 400 rent to my parents). Am I suppose regularly update the coco? I wasnt sure if I should show them im earning more or if its taken for granted that i should be earning more a year later? Should i update them on my savings?
Would this help my case or hinder it? Would you mind advising me on this?
I didnt want them to tell me "you earn enough to do without an affordable home".
Any advice is very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

starky

LOLA08 wrote: »

Hi Starky

Thanks for your reply. Well i am delighted with the offer of the apt it was my frist choice and its a 2 bed apt, in a perfect location for me. I will not be selling in the 20 years, this is going to be my home and thats it. but i would like the claw back to be reasonable just in case. it was way over priced, just for the future, and a bit of security as well.

I know what you mean. I guess that I am just lucky that the location of the place that I have been offered has not been as badly hit as other areas. It most definitely has gone down in value about 10% from what they were sold off plans for in 2006 but the councils valuation has reflected that in my case. There is no doubt in my mind that the FMV of my apartment will most likely drop further in the net 2/3+ years as apartments are taking a hit, but in the long run I reckon that a place in Docklands in D2 will be way more desirable then the same type of property away out side of the M50. Like your self this is where I intend to live for at least 10 years, and as I am getting a 52% discount I think trying to buy out the council would be financial suicide, so I quite happily stick it out for the long term.
You have requested a revaluation from the council so you never know, they may come through with it. All they have to do is get their own valuation done on it to clearly realise that the value they have on it is unrealistic at current market prices, and that you are not trying to chance your arm here. You just have to stand your ground with them.

loosewire

starky wrote: »

I will forgo the usual AH is not designed for profit making blah blah blah as its been said so many times on this and other forums and I think it’s a given that every one know this.

I can’t see a bank lending you all that much on the strength of an AH. Depending on your % discount, you have to remember that you don’t own 100% of the property. So for augments sake say you got your AH for €265 with a 35% discount, making the market value of it €400,000. In theory you have €140,000 in equity from day one. The problem is that this is not really equity in the tradition sense of it. The council owns this equity, as such you can’t borrow on it, nor attempt to cash it in, as its not yours.
In order to assess what you might be able to borrow you have to consider:

What was your original AH purchase price
What is your claw back percentage
What is the current marked value of the house
How many years are you into your AH agreement
How much of your original mortgage have you paid off

thanks for the info guys.....sorry i wasnt out to make it like i'm loaded quite the opposite in fact. its just i have a friend who now owns 3 houses on the back of her first purchase. (dont worry not AH!) i would not be able to afford another mortgage. just looking to get some security for my kids when they are older. i would have rented the 2nd property and thus paying the mortgage. on second thoughts it would seem not worth it.

starky

loosewire wrote: »

thanks for the info guys.....sorry i wasnt out to make it like i'm loaded quite the opposite in fact. its just i have a friend who now owns 3 houses on the back of her first purchase. (dont worry not AH!) i would not be able to afford another mortgage. just looking to get some security for my kids when they are older. i would have rented the 2nd property and thus paying the mortgage. on second thoughts it would seem not worth it.

No worries, just because you buy an AH now does not automatically rule you out of buying an investment property some time in the future, say 8/10 years from now. It may well be worth the investment in time.

But be warned ………………

loosewire wrote: »

its just i have a friend who now owns 3 houses on the back of her first purchase

Seatmates like that caused the property mania here over the last 6/7 years.

Just because Johnny next door has a house and the local shop owner has three apartments and bill in the garage has an investment property in Bulgaria does not automatically mean that is the right thing for you to do. Always weigh up the numbers and make a fact based decision on an investment properly, never do it because some one else is, or some one else says it’s a runner. Remember that if you do start to dabble as a property investor there are many perils in your way, and that you certainly will not make a quick buck out of it any more.

That said there will be good investment opportunities coming up over the next few years a property prices decline so keep an eye out for a value for money opportunity.

Lex_Diamonds

Hi folks,

Just a quick question and apologies if this has been covered. I was looking through the form that is used for application to the AF scheme and I noticed you have to submit the so-called single application form to every County Council seperately anyway...

The thing is, they seem to require an original P60 as proof of earnings, does this mean an applicant has to wait to get their P60 back to then be able to apply to the other County Councils? I would hope a photocopy could be used?

Please correct me if I am being stupid.

The_Conductor

A photocopy will suffice.

Drapper

smccarrick wrote: »

Strictly speaking- they are not supposed to change the valuation following receipt of your acceptance. Finances are rapidly becoming a massive issue under the AH scheme for most councils- as central government have advised there is no additional cash to bail out over expenditure by councils. While its not impossible that they will agree to a revaluation, it is highly unlikely. Once you signed the paperwork its difficult to modify the agreement- but not impossible.

S./

once you sign there is no revisit on a valuation, but you are fully entitled to query it. Valautions hold for a period of time, but are changing by the month!

antodeco

Hi All,
Finally got my p21 after 4 months of waiting! All I need to get now is a HPL1 form. How do I go about getting one do you know?

Also, how do I apply to all 7 councils around the Dublin area?

Many thanks.

Drapper

antodeco wrote: »

Hi All,
Finally got my p21 after 4 months of waiting! All I need to get now is a HPL1 form. How do I go about getting one do you know?

Also, how do I apply to all 7 councils around the Dublin area?

Many thanks.

submit to one and get a receipt for the 50 euro and then send photocopies to all 6 others!

also the AHP has a number of properties available check out their site!

irlrobins

There is one contained within this form. You can then call into your local revenue office and they'll stamp it. If you're near city centre then there is one office just off O'Connell St on Cathedral Street.

antodeco

Fantastic! Thank you for both answers!

Victor

antodeco wrote: »

Also, how do I apply to all 7 councils around the Dublin area?

Do Bray and Balbriggan operate housing departments?

I though you only had to apply once?

inigo

We're going for an interview next week with DL/R Co Co. We are no. 28 in the electoral ward. Any (rough) idea how long it may be until we're asked to view a property? Cheers.

LOLA08

Hi Inigo

thats great news. It depends really have the council given you any idea which apts you will be viewing? it took me 4months from the time i went to the interview to the viewing.