What's Happened to Sinn Fein!!!

axer

ArthurF wrote:

For what its worth, this is my take on what the Shinners are up-to, and as I've stated many times before - Sinn Fein's main goal & objective is not based on whether they currently do good or bad in elections down South, but to get a toe-hold & lever their way in through the back door, courtesy of the (ignorant of their past) Youth Vote ~ the notion that Sinn Fein will amalgamate with Fianna Fail some time in the future is also a scary possability (but not a very realistic one in the near future) I suspect Sinn Fein's objectives are far more ruthless and would involve not just joining-up with Fianna Fail, but Gobbling them-up also! ~ this in my opinion could be one of their main objectives, leading-up to (Total island domination)! Other aspects of the Sinn Fein strategy is to build alliances with the British (Unionists) in the North, thus fooling them into a false sense of security ~ add to this a possible future rise in electoral strength in the South? and then you have the perfect ingredients to take over the whole island ~ The North already softened-up, the Southern door ajar, one big foothold in the North, and the South slowly simmering & being prepared, & then The Sinn Fein Holy Grail within sight (Total island domination) ~ but only if we let it happen ( we wont) everything Sinn Fein does is guaged & guided by their strategic objective to take over the Whole island by hook or by Crook (excuse the pun)

You tell them ArthurF!!

I mean it might look like they are only trying to take over Ireland now for their own ruthless gain - but will that be enough? I don't think so. More than likely they will take over britian then france after that. Stop these tyrants now!!! Oh god, someone please think of the children!!! :rolleyes:

guinnessdrinker

courtesy of the (ignorant of their past) Youth Vote

Arthur F, im a bit annoyed by this comment, to call a youth ignorant if they voted the way you didnt want them to vote.

Also,

Other aspects of the Sinn Fein strategy is to build alliances with the British (Unionists) in the North, thus fooling them into a false sense of security

I have a bit more respect for some of the Unionist politicians than you seem to. I dont believe they will be stupid enough to be fooled to do anything they dont want to.

The building alliances with Unionists inititive can of course only be a good thing, or do you prefer if people remain polarised as they have in the past.

Its time to move on.

E92

guinnessdrinker wrote:

Arthur F, im a bit annoyed by this comment, to call a youth ignorant if they voted the way you didnt want them to vote.

I think what he means and hes actually right assuming it to be true is that some young people vote for Sinn Fein, because its "cool" to vote for Sinn Fein. Unfortunately politics isnt about being cool, hence the ignorance of it. I know people who were going to vote for Sinn Fein, but when I reminded them the consequences of it, their(SFs) past, and the consequence of their economic polices, they werent long changing their minds! They freely admitted they would vote for Sinn Fein to annoy the rest of us and they hadnt thought it through. Now there are people who genuinely are into all the thing that Sinn Fein stand for, and if people want to vote for SF on policy and not a beauty contest, I respect that, but a bit like the Greens, they get the protest vote.

Liam Byrne

....the same youth who, when drunk, seemed to be compelled to chant "Sinn Fein" / "IRA" in the middle of "The Fields of Athenry", completely ignorant of what they were condoning.

I stopped playing it at gigs for that very reason. I've since started again, due to the song's odd association with the Munster Rugby team, but if anyone starts that ****e chanting I'll pull the song.

And therein is the obscure reference to it being "cool".....I mean, can you imagine what would happen if, in the middle of a song in the midst of drunken mates, some young fella started chanting "Fianna Fail" ? He'd be laughed out the door - if only for its inappropriateness on a night out.

God only knows where this (sub-section of the) youth gets their inspiration from (probably Jade Goody and lots of other brainless z-celebs) but reality needs to be pointed out to them....

murphaph

Yeah, twerps who shout "Sinn Fein, IRA" in the middle of what is a nice song are more ofte than not your ignorant yoof, with an IQ at or slightly above room temperature.

LordSutch

guinnessdrinker wrote:

Arthur F, im a bit annoyed by this comment, to call a youth ignorant if they voted the way you didnt want them to vote.

Regarding the youth vote, please see the LINK provided by Post #147 ~ you might also see my previous Post#144 to explain why the 'Youth Vote' has been mentioned.

axer

ArthurF wrote:

Regarding the youth vote, please see the LINK provided by Post #147 ~ you might also see my previous Post#144 to explain why the 'Youth Vote' has been mentioned.

Talking about past violence is a rubbish argument. It must be awful for you to think then that FF and FG with their violent histories are actually running the country.

Why don't you try and convince the youth of what you think are bad policies instead of lecturing them about the IRA's past violence otherwise you are just scaremongering. Move on.

Liam Byrne

axer wrote:

Talking about past violence is a rubbish argument. It must be awful for you to think then that FF and FG with their violent histories are actually running the country.

Why don't you try and convince the youth of what you think are bad policies instead of lecturing them about the IRA's past violence otherwise you are just scaremongering. Move on.

OK, so assuming that your views are fair and balanced, and that past violence and criminality is "a rubbish argument", I would then presume that you are of the opinion that Bertie's fairly recent dodgy activities should be ignored, and Ray Burke and Liam Lawlor should not have been jailed, and Haughey shouldn't have been investigated, etc, etc ?

No-one is having a go at SF in isolation; all we are saying is that they, among others, have been pretty closely associated with dodgy activities, many FAR worse than accepting cash for a house.

Bertie HAD disassociated himself from Haughey & Co up to recently, so the past activities were well in the past, plus the current generation of FF politicians had nothing to do with any violence from way back in 1916.

Maybe in 2098 we will have the same opinion of SF, in which case we'd be being completely fair and balanced in how we view past associations with violence - i.e. 90-odd years later the actions of past members will be irrelevant. Unfortunately the FF dodgyness hasn't gone away, you know, so I've no inclination to support them either, but if it came to a choice between FF & SF, I'd prefer the dodgyness, thanks very much.

As for "scaremongering", I don't think so; I don't want anyone who has so recently been associated with criminality or violence against gardai in charge of a justice portfolio or crimefighting budget. That would be "bad policy".....and anyone who compares this with the north can sod off; the public's voting decisions up there voted in 2 sets of extremists so they have no choice - down here we DO have other choices, and judging by the vote I'm not the only one who questioned and rejected SF's suitability, despite my apparent difference of opinion with most in relation to FF's suitability.

And again, if a local criminal ran for election, I'd look elsewhere; a local candidate here was a local gutter solicitor who represented every scumbag in the city, getting them off unpunished, and is also trying to get the Government to pay/compensate prison inmates for being locked up and having to do stuff like clean out their cells :mad: - despite the fact that their imprisionment could easily have been avoided - all they had to do was not break the law! So his views on what's right are a million miles from mine, so he didn't get my vote either!

Just face facts; there are (at least some) people in Sinn Fein (and I've seen some of the websites and posts in other threads, so I know what I'm talking about) whose views on society are despicable, and if, by having those views, the public don't support/think them suitable/vote for them, that's not the public's fault, and you can't simply dismiss those concerns by glibly saying "move on".

yomchi

ArthurF wrote:

For what its worth, this is my take on what the Shinners are up-to, and as I've stated many times before - Sinn Fein's main goal & objective is not based on whether they currently do good or bad in elections down South, but to get a toe-hold & lever their way in through the back door, courtesy of the (ignorant of their past) Youth Vote ~ the notion that Sinn Fein will amalgamate with Fianna Fail some time in the future is also a scary possability (but not a very realistic one in the near future) I suspect Sinn Fein's objectives are far more ruthless and would involve not just joining-up with Fianna Fail, but Gobbling them-up also! ~ this in my opinion could be one of their main objectives, leading-up to (Total island domination)! Other aspects of the Sinn Fein strategy is to build alliances with the British (Unionists) in the North, thus fooling them into a false sense of security ~ add to this a possible future rise in electoral strength in the South? and then you have the perfect ingredients to take over the whole island ~ The North already softened-up, the Southern door ajar, one big foothold in the North, and the South slowly simmering & being prepared, & then The Sinn Fein Holy Grail within sight (Total island domination) ~ but only if we let it happen ( we wont) everything Sinn Fein does is guaged & guided by their strategic objective to take over the Whole island by hook or by Crook (excuse the pun)

With all the talk about the Shinners being up to ten, twelve, or forteen seats prior to the election, I am now really glad that they have been brought back down to Earth with a Big Bang (excuse the pun again) and by a Southern Electorate ~ there is a God

Arthur if your crazy notion bore any truth the world would be full of fools all being deceived by SF. Stick to sci-fi i'd say

I think this thread is doomed to meandering nonsense just when it was going back on track.

Low Lie the fields of Athenry...

LordSutch

axer wrote:

Talking about past violence is a rubbish argument.

Why don't you try and convince the youth of what you think are bad policies instead of lecturing them about the IRA's past violence otherwise you are just scaremongering. Move on.

Maybe in ten or twenty years time, when the images of mutilated bodies from the Six O'Clock news have faded & the whiff of cordite has blown away in the wind, and the Leader has changed, then I might learn to accept them as 'main stream' and the youth vote will be a different ball game altogether by then, but currently I think its only a good thing that the youth be kept informed of what the current Shinners truly represent ......
(the hurt is still too raw & too fresh in the mind).

LordSutch

Jon wrote:

Arthur if your crazy notion bore any truth the world would be full of fools all being deceived by SF. Stick to sci-fi i'd say

I think this thread is doomed to meandering nonsense just when it was going back on track.

Low Lie the fields of Athenry...

Oops, did I hit a nerve there Jon?

yomchi

No Arthur. You carry on, I'll be in Personal Issues if you're looking for me.

Good man.

murphaph

I'm with Jon here, let's try to get what could be an interesting thread back on track.


I wonder what percentage of homeowners voted SF. I think the proportion would be quite low. I think if we looked at homeowners who owe more than 50% of the value of their homes to their mortgage provider we'd see an even lower percentage.

Is it possible that northerners will look south and ask themselves "if the southerners don't vote SF, and we live in the peace as them, why do we still vote SF?"

We've almost taken their future success in NI as a given, but is it? Even of the SDLP or unionist/centre parties fail to attract current nationalists, what of FF mobilise up north? Could they halt SF's advances in the province?

brianthebard

Back on topic then, why did SF ever think they were going to gain seats this election? They didn't present anything new or unique to the electorate, their president was shown to have a very shaky grasp of matters, on the TV debate, and they are still, whether you like it or not, an overwhelmingly one issue party. Furthermore, the smaller parties in general had the deluded notion that they were going to gain seats, even though it was clear that FG was on the rise, FF would be fairly steady and labour are, well labour. (it takes a lot to shake their voters imo). In short any seats up for grabs were between the big three players and the smaller parties didn't seem to know it.

yomchi

brianthebard wrote:

Back on topic then, why did SF ever think they were going to gain seats this election? They didn't present anything new or unique to the electorate, their president was shown to have a very shaky grasp of matters, on the TV debate, and they are still, whether you like it or not, an overwhelmingly one issue party. Furthermore, the smaller parties in general had the deluded notion that they were going to gain seats, even though it was clear that FG was on the rise, FF would be fairly steady and labour are, well labour. (it takes a lot to shake their voters imo). In short any seats up for grabs were between the big three players and the smaller parties didn't seem to know it.

A couple of reasons, the figures received in the 2004 locals, the perception that they were on a cusp of a wave after the settlement in the North, the IRA initiatives and a 'great' election strategy. I was in Parnell square today and there is still some head scratching going on!

iamhunted

the local SF councillor here increased his vote by something like 25% in this election. I dont think the election was a failure in any way for sinn fein.

bt the way - Im a homeowner and i voted shinner.

murphaph

iamhunted wrote:

I dont think the election was a failure in any way for sinn fein.

That doesn't square with the headscratching Jon witnessed in Parnell Square. SF accept it was a failure.

ateam

brianthebard wrote:

Back on topic then, why did SF ever think they were going to gain seats this election? They didn't present anything new or unique to the electorate, their president was shown to have a very shaky grasp of matters, on the TV debate, and they are still, whether you like it or not, an overwhelmingly one issue party. Furthermore, the smaller parties in general had the deluded notion that they were going to gain seats, even though it was clear that FG was on the rise, FF would be fairly steady and labour are, well labour. (it takes a lot to shake their voters imo). In short any seats up for grabs were between the big three players and the smaller parties didn't seem to know it.

Although I agree, the opinion polls consistently showed increased support for the Greens and Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein were put at around 9 or 10% in every pre election poll, right up to the last week. What happened to them?

yomchi

murphaph wrote:

That doesn't square with the headscratching Jon witnessed in Parnell Square. SF accept it was a failure.

Disaster is the word I used!

is_that_so

Jon wrote:

A couple of reasons, the figures received in the 2004 locals, the perception that they were on a cusp of a wave after the settlement in the North, the IRA initiatives and a 'great' election strategy. I was in Parnell square today and there is still some head scratching going on!

Local elections are notorious for very low turnouts and throwing up protest votes( give them a bloody nose syndrome). For some reason the electorate don't register that local elections can actually have even more impact on their lives. Councils after all are the ones who determine zoning and local planning issues,as well as providing services.

K-9

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Well here are my crude figures for the Donegal & Dublin constituencies. The Donegal ones show some very good indications for the future for SF, the Dublin ones not so good. The move away from 4 & 5 seaters is hurting the smaller parties including SF.

Donegal NE 9.93% 17.47% +7.54%
Donegal SW 10.75% 21.23% +10.48%
Dub Central 14.61% 9.19% -5.42%
Dub Midwest 6.52% 9.27% +2.75%
Dub North 3.07% 2.66% -0.41%
Dub NC 5.74% 3.78% -1.96%
Dub NE 10.24% 13.34% +3.1%
Dub NW 18.28% 15.74% -2.54%
Dub South 3.93% 3.01% -0.92%
Dub SC 12.7% 10.15% -2.55%
Dub SW 20.29% 12.61% -7.68%
Dub SE 7.29% 4.72% -2.57%
Dub West 8.02% 4.78% -3.24%

In Donegal SW FF went up 8.44% as well. The factor here was Gildea's independent vote from 2002 being split evenly between natural FF voters and protest voters, which SF gained. There is a definite chance of them gaining in the next election as FG do not appear to have a strong candidate to replace Dinny McGinley who will not be running again but again they will also need to get more transfers to do this.

In Donegal NE, local politics was a factor in the SF vote. FF ran 3 candidates and had more or less the same vote as last time with 2 candidates. SF seemed to have gained some of the Blayney/Inishowen votes. Again transfers where poor especially when you consider that the SF candidate and FF candidate who was eliminated are from Inishowen.

Looking at it objectively there is no guarentee that they are going to gain the 2 Donegal seats next time. They definitely need to get more voter appeal so that they can gain transfers.

colindkavanagh

I don't understand why people constantly refer to SF as a one issue party, its simply not true. They have a very clear and detailed manifesto, yes a United Ireland is a main goal of the party, people say its never going to happen, Bertie says it will happen in his lifetime (why do people vote for him?). Their manifesto and their policy deals adequately with a number of issues, particulary transport, health-care, housing, immigration etc. They've backed down on the corporate tax issue (not something I'm entirely happy with but live in the real world), they also deal substanitially with equality particulary for women, eldery, lgbt community etc. No doubting that there campaign was disapointing, but they lost a lot on transfers and I think in five years time this will be less of an issue, people in the south of the island will be able to see that they are more than capable of governing successfully in the north of the island and I think we will see a substantial swing in their favour. For most voters, I believe the IRA is not an issue, they organisation has disbanded and is no longer in existence, in five years time this fact will be even more cemented. McDowell and the PD's were Sinn Féin's biggest enemy, where is he/they now??

K-9

colindkavanagh wrote:

McDowell and the PD's were Sinn Féin's biggest enemy, where is he/they now??

Probably in Govt. Actually SF & and PD's had similar bad campaigns mainly because of the 2 1/2 parties taking a lot of their policies and having 2 party leaders who campaigned badly.

Rock Climber

colindkavanagh wrote:

McDowell and the PD's were Sinn Féin's biggest enemy, where is he/they now??

A private citizen languishing with the 94% of the rest of the private citizenry who didn't vote Sinn Féin ?

Villain

colindkavanagh wrote:

McDowell and the PD's were Sinn Féin's biggest enemy, where is he/they now??

He is defeated and retired from Politics. They are begging FF for a lifeline after loosing 6 seats in the election, thats 5 more than Sinn Fein lost and they now have half the number of seats of Sinn Fein, but they haven't gone away you know

Liam Byrne

irish1 wrote:

He is defeated and retired from Politics. They are begging FF for a lifeline after loosing 6 seats in the election, thats 5 more than Sinn Fein lost and they now have half the number of seats of Sinn Fein, but they haven't gone away you know

So what you're saying is that the PDs are fighting for their lives after having a run-in with Sinn Fein ? Familiar territory for many, then, I guess.....

It's odd, though - most of the posts are implying that Sinn Fein should be given a shot at running the country; no-one is saying they'd be the best at it, no-one is saying they'd do anything - just that they deserve (somehow) to be given a go at it.

Even if they DIDN'T have a recent history that disgusts the majority of the country, this isn't exactly a compelling argument in favour of electing them, now is it ?

Even FG lost out because people didn't seem to think THEY had enough experience; and that's without the baggage of their party leader being photographed with criminals and obstructing justice.

Mind you, to be fair, Bertie has been seen to do at least half of that last statement, both in terms of payments and Shannon Airport, so I guess it isn't THAT much of an issue with stuff like that.

murphaph

colindkavanagh wrote:

I don't understand why people constantly refer to SF as a one issue party, its simply not true. They have a very clear and detailed manifesto, yes a United Ireland is a main goal of the party, people say its never going to happen, Bertie says it will happen in his lifetime (why do people vote for him?). Their manifesto and their policy deals adequately with a number of issues, particulary transport, health-care, housing, immigration etc. They've backed down on the corporate tax issue (not something I'm entirely happy with but live in the real world), they also deal substanitially with equality particulary for women, eldery, lgbt community etc.

They didn't cost their manifesto. It's meaningless without costing it. I can promise the sun moon and stars, but I must be able to at least attempt to prove I can pay for it. People will never take SF seriously until they cost their election manifestos.

colindkavanagh wrote:

No doubting that there campaign was disapointing, but they lost a lot on transfers and I think in five years time this will be less of an issue, people in the south of the island will be able to see that they are more than capable of governing successfully in the north of the island and I think we will see a substantial swing in their favour.

How will we know they have been succesful in Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland is a heavily subsidised region of the United Kingdom. They are in an assembly devolved some powers to it by Westminster, which has supreme authority over it. SF will have no say in serious fiscal matters. They will basically (along with their unionist colleagues in government) get to decide how to spend british money. This is not proof of any sort of fiscal competence-a prerequisite for good government. If Northern Ireland was independent we coulf judge SF in government, but it has its lifeline.

colindkavanagh wrote:

For most voters, I believe the IRA is not an issue, they organisation has disbanded and is no longer in existence, in five years time this fact will be even more cemented.

Agreed in the main.

colindkavanagh wrote:

McDowell and the PD's were Sinn Féin's biggest enemy, where is he/they now??

They weren't their biggest enemy. Their own ineptitude in southern politics is their biggest enemy.

Marathon Man

Like the Terminator Sinn Fein will be back. But unlike the Terminator they won't be packing M16 assault rifles. Now that there is peace the whole issue of 'the troubles' shouldn't even be brought up. Sinn Fein is a vibrant, dynamic party with many councilors, td's and supporters who are university educated and have no links whatsoever to the campaign in Northern Ireland. Failure to acknowledge this is just ridiculousness.

Liam Byrne

Marathon Man wrote:

Now that there is peace the whole issue of 'the troubles' shouldn't even be brought up.

Excuse me ? Who decided that ? There were lots of activities that were overlooked because of "the troubles" and ok, that's something we have to live with, including the early release of those caught for such crimes. But likewise there were many, many activities whose perpetrators were never caught.

In addition, at least SOME of SF's supporters and members are of the mindset that violence and crime are OK, and if you look at some of the other forums where atrocities like Gerry McCabe, etc, are dicussed, you'll see a sickening concoction of vile opinions. Since parties are meant to represent their supporters, that implies that at least some of those opinions are likely to surface again.

Sinn Fein is a vibrant, dynamic party with many councilors, td's and supporters who are university educated and have no links whatsoever to the campaign in Northern Ireland.

Agreed. It appears that some people have short memories and have fast-tracked SF into acceptability. Likewise, some people have even shorter memories when it comes to remembering who gave them money; I wouldn't be in support of either of those two camps.

Failure to acknowledge this is just ridiculousness.

I didn't fail to acknowledge it, and I'm not tarring all SF supporters with the same brush (although I genuinely can't understand what they see in the party); I will gladly acknowledge that SF has some of those supporters, but it is equal "ridiculousness" to imply that those are the only supporters that it has and that "the troubles" can't even be brought up as a measure of what the remainder are like.

Why do you think that child abusers are put on a register, even though it might appear that they have reformed ? Is a potential neighbour not allowed to bring up "the troubles" from their past ?

And as stated above, SF does not offer the general public anything concrete in terms of policy; all violent and criminal tendencies and sympathies aside, they have some - uncosted - ideas, but if FG aren't experienced enough for Government, SF definitely aren't.

getthegarglein

PH01 wrote:

With Crowe about to lose his seat in Dublin South West, where has it all gone wrong for Sinn Fein?

here's my two cents

i think sinn fein has been affected by their success in the northern peace process. i feel voters in the south may be feeling that the north is no longer an issue and so voting sf as a complaint to the govt's handling of the north no longer applies.
Also, as the economy is clearly (i feel) the main issue of the election maybe people are looking more closely at the economic policies of all the parties. Perhaps the electorate did not have confidence in sinn fein on this issue (i, as a usual shinner voter, and socialist, did not think they came across convincing myself) and maybe felt that sinn fein had just 'made up' their economic polices for the southern election (e.g. i'm sure it'd be hard for a lot of people to have confidence in people who have for years been one issue driven, suddenly talking about economic issues). Regarding the polls showing ten per cent up to the last week, i reckon it was the undecideds who turned that into 6.9