What's Happened to Sinn Fein!!!

K-9

getthegarglein wrote:

here's my two cents

i think sinn fein has been affected by their success in the northern peace process. i feel voters in the south may be feeling that the north is no longer an issue and so voting sf as a complaint to the govt's handling of the north no longer applies.

The North was a very strong card for FF, probably why the opposition never made it an issue. FG daren't say they would have done it better. FF probably got some credit if it was as an issue, as they brought opposing sides together.

Marathon Man

Liam Byrne wrote:

Is a potential neighbour not allowed to bring up "the troubles" from their past ?

I see where your coming from but as i said a lot of new members of Sinn Fein have no links whatsoever to the troubles. It seems to me that it is often used as a cop out by people who cannot find any other good reason to accept Sinn Fein.

Marathon Man

Liam Byrne wrote:

Agreed. It appears that some people have short memories and have fast-tracked SF into acceptability. Likewise, some people have even shorter memories when it comes to remembering who gave them money

It seems that many supporters of FF have short memories regarding who gave them money as evidenced by the recent debacle surrounding the Taoiseach to name just one example. There are lots more.

CiDeRmAn

I guess the change in the Rep Ireland vote relfected the change politics Ulster too, down here, a swing away from the edges towards a main 3 party state, FF, FG and Labour, up the north you got a swing to the fringes, to SF and the DUP. SF and their politics is socialist and have little in common with FF aside from both having republican aspirations, in fact SFs socialist manifesto makes it closer to LAbour than anyone else, no?
Sinn Feins vote down here simply evaporated as they were depending on a non existent desire for a change in the status quo, many, including myself expected the public to vote for a change in leadership, but that was not forthcoming and so SF missed out as voters who would have once seen their 1 or 2 go to a SF or PD, depending on their persuasion, instead voted for FF or FG, thereby ruining the best laid plans of Mr. Adams and Mc. Dowell.
However, I get the impression thatthis may be a one trick pony, certainly for FF, I don't see a FF lead by Mr. Cowen, however an accomplished politician he may be, attracting the sort of non die hard support, that touch Bertie has with folk is charisma and I can't see Cowen being as good at it, as a result it will be all to play for next time.
Plus, by then, SF will, presumably, have a successful track record in running affairs in Ulster, in concert with its assembly partners. Success in working with diametric opposites like the DUP could highlight them as a less frightnening prospect for a party in the south to choose as a governmental partner to form a Dail, should be interesting.

One other problem for SF is their apparent desire to offer anything and everything to everyone, for example to the nurses in their recent dispute, but without offering any manner of describing how these funds would be raised, matters like that only serves to undermine their actual credibility as a potential political partner.

horseflesh

What happened to Sinn Fein??

Isn't it obvious?
Most of the pondlife who would vote for them (and probably said so in pre-election polls) simply didn't bother to vote, and probably never will.
Thankfully.

is_that_so

SF are likely to remain a fringe left wing party. Unfortunately this is the same area that the Greens drift into and they are a more attractive proposition. SF's natural supporters, excluding those with long memories are the disaffected and within that group the young. The problem with the disaffected is that they do not always vote nor do they remain young.

They can end up morphing into "Breakfast Roll Man"(Ivan Yeats). He in turn has prospered or wants to prosper and wants better for his kids. They too have aspirations to move up into the middle class and when SF come calling they can find that the support has moved on to the centre.

A further factor to consider is that as a population ages it also tend to become conservative in nature.

That said it doesn't necessarily mean the disappearance of SF as an entity but unless they need to show up with real policies next time out and not depend on past glories, this will become a reality.
I can see much soul searching for them and some of the other losers in the election.

Liam Byrne

Marathon Man wrote:

It seems that many supporters of FF have short memories regarding who gave them money as evidenced by the recent debacle surrounding the Taoiseach to name just one example. There are lots more.

That's precisely what I was saying......so basically, I wouldn't vote for FF because of that, but likewise I definitely wouldn't vote for SF either - and indeed, if I had no choice, I'd vote for FF first, because their crimes (or, to be precise, the crimes of some of their members which appear to have been condoned by the overall party) were of a much lesser magnitude. But thankfully, there were other, better, options so that choice didn't arise.

Marathon Man wrote:

it seems to me that it is often used as a cop out by people who cannot find any other good reason to accept Sinn Fein.

There is no "cop-out" required. If someone joins a party who has those views, they are associating themselves with those views by their own choice, and will be judged accordingly. The fact is that I don't need an "excuse" not to vote for SF - they've given me plenty of reasons not to. If I don't agree with the views of a party, I don't need an "excuse" not to vote for them; and Gerry Adams' stance on a couple of major issues disgusts me. That's not my fault - it's his.....and given some of the bile that I've read, Gerry Adams' views are moderate in terms of what many SF supporters view as acceptable....

Likewise, Bertie couldn't come on here and say that I was looking for an excuse not to vote for him; he's given me plenty of reasons not to - incompetence of the ministers that he appointed, seemingly dodgy deals, at the very least evasive and conflicting answers to straightforward questions.

So claiming that SF have some God-given right to support, and that people like me are looking for "excuses" not to vote for them is, quite frankly, pathetic - political parties are meant to give us reasons to vote for them; since we're all human and will never 100% agree with a party's views, we then weigh up the pros and cons.

And when it comes to SF, the abbreviations "pro" and "con" tend to be pretty apt.

Húrin

is_that_so wrote:

SF are likely to remain a fringe left wing party. Unfortunately this is the same area that the Greens drift into and they are a more attractive proposition.

How have the Greens ever been a fringe left party? If you had to rate them they're probably to the right of Labour, ffs.

is_that_so

H&#250 wrote: »

How have the Greens ever been a fringe left party? If you had to rate them they're probably to the right of Labour, ffs.

I think I used the word "fringe" and "left" in relation to SF and "drift" in relation to the Greens. I never classified them as such.
My point is that they are more attractive as a protest party to some left leaning voters.

Mick86

Rock Climber wrote:

QFT!

Though I commented on that ot part myself lets go back on topic now and discuss why SF fell 6 seats short of expectations...

I think that the election was won and lost on the economy. FF was seen as the party most likely to maintain our prosperity whilst SF's economic policies are seen to be disastrous.

It's interesting to note that of the 5 sitting SF TDs, 3 of them lost support

O'Snodaigh 12.7% (2002) 10.15% (2007)
Ferris 24.24% (2002) 20.43% (2007)
Crowe 20.29% (2002) 12.16% (2007)

The two others increased their vote

O'Caolain 17.51% (2002) 20.01% (2007)
Morgan 14.95% (2002) 15.04% (2007)

Obviously in 4 of these 5 SF supporting constituencies Must Try Harder is the message from the elctorate. Switching their Poster Girl Mary Lou from Dublin West to Dublin Central was also a major mistake. SF's share fell by 5.42% in this constituency.

Hoops1888

Mick86 wrote:

Mary Lou from Dublin West.

Big mistake putting her on RTE before the election.

To be honest I cant stand that woman the way she goes on she never really answers question's just works her way around them.

I think if O'Snodaigh or Adams was on they may have got a better vote.

Still though this country is funny. For example alot of people say young people vote for Sinn Fein most people old vote Fianna Fail, I asked alot of member's in my family who they vote for and why, the best part of them said they vote for FF because year's ago their husbands was in the army and they use to get stuff. :rolleyes:

Mick86

Hoops1888 wrote:

Big mistake putting her on RTE before the election.

To be honest I cant stand that woman the way she goes on she never really answers question's just works her way around them.

What politician ever answers a question. They all just trot out the party soundbite but SF people are the worst of the lot. Deviation from the message being put out from Provo Central is not allowed.

Hoops1888 wrote:

I think if O'Snodaigh or Adams was on they may have got a better vote.

Not really, O'Snodaigh almost crashed and burned in his own constituency and Adams is a drawback with most people here in the Republic in my opinion.

Hoops1888

Mick86 wrote:

Not really, O'Snodaigh almost crashed and burned in his own constituency and Adams is a drawback with most people here in the Republic in my opinion.

Well that's your opinion, mine is your wrong.

I remember I think it was Sinn Fein's first time on QandA's the 2% party kept on interupting Gerry and they got some whopping from the crowd, I recall one person who might of been a supporter or might not of been telling him to shut up Gerry have more right to be there than him, and the crowd gave some applause.

Oh let me guess the whole crowd were 20-23 year old and all knacker's?

Marathon Man

Liam Byrne wrote:

political parties are meant to give us reasons to vote for them; since we're all human and will never 100% agree with a party's views, we then weigh up the pros and cons.

Fair enough Liam. Let me ask: What would it take for you to consider voting for Sinn Fein?
Try not to give a smart answer,(you can if you want) but honestly what would Sinn Fein need to do to give you a reason to give them the aul number 1?

Mick86

Hoops1888 wrote:

Well that's your opinion, mine is your wrong.

The statistics indicate that I am right. O'Snodaigh's support dropped 2.5% or so over the last 5 years.

Hoops1888 wrote:

I remember I think it was Sinn Fein's first time on QandA's the 2% party kept on interupting Gerry and they got some whopping from the crowd, I recall one person who might of been a supporter or might not of been telling him to shut up Gerry have more right to be there than him, and the crowd gave some applause.

Oh let me guess the whole crowd were 20-23 year old and all knacker's?

So explain SF's failure to translate all that goodwill into votes.

Hoops1888

Mick86 wrote:

The statistics indicate that I am right. O'Snodaigh's support dropped 2.5% or so over the last 5 years.

Am I missing something Aengus Ó Snodaigh was elected I could be wrong but I very much doubt that I am.

Oh here's one fact for you aswel about the man he only draws the average wage. It's funny how a man who takes back handers :rolleyes: is fit to run this country but you say these men arent.

Mick86

Hoops1888 wrote:

Am I missing something Aengus Ó Snodaigh was elected I could be wrong but I very much doubt that I am.

Yes he was elected but he still dropped support.

Hoops1888 wrote:

Oh here's one fact for you aswel about the man he only draws the average wage. It's funny how a man who takes back handers :rolleyes: is fit to run this country but you say these men arent.

I didn't vote Fianna Fáil. And I agree with you that Bertie Ahern is a poor excuse for a Taoiseach whether he took backhanders or not, a point that has yet to be proven in court or elsewhere. I don't know which member of Sinn Féin you propose as Taoiseach but your pipe dream will have to be put on hold until the party manages to radically increase it's support in the Republic. Like it or not the people have rejected SF.

Hoops1888

I take it F/G or the P/D's even worse than Bertie :rolleyes:

Like I said if he went on QandA's maybe they would have done better as Ive already said he is alot better speaking wise, yes his vote dropped but that doesnt mean if he went on the show that the whole parties vote would drop like a tonne of brick's maybe if he went on the show there might of been a chance he would have gained more vote's.

Parties go up parties go down, alot of people seem to think Sinn Fein will go like the PD's and just die away, I think that's very wrong sure Sinn Fein were never going to get into goverment but sooner or later they will have too.


In the General election in 1997 Sinn Féin received 45,603 votes and returned one TD Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.
17th 2002 there was a shift in Irish politics when Sinn Féin made significant gains in the General Election receiving 121,039 votes (6.51%) and returning five Sinn Féin TDs to Leinster House.
2007 - 6.9% four Sinn Fein TDs.



In 1999 62 Councillors were elected to Local Authorities.
In the June 11 2004 Local Government elections, 126 Sinn Féin Councillors were elected to local authorities across the state.


In the 1994 European elections Sinn Féin received 89,038 votes.
In the European elections in 1999 Sinn Féin received 205,808 votes across the island - 117,643 in the Six Counties (17.3%) and 88,165 (6.33%) in the 26 Counties.
In the European elections in 2004 Sinn Féin received 342,256 votes across the island - 144,541 in the Six Counties (26.3%) and 197,715 (11.1%) in the 26 Counties.

And Sinn Fein are dying? Them figure's look like their going up and up I could also put up abig write up about how well their doing in the north but my fingers are sore But here's two words Lagan Valley.

Mick86

Hoops1888 wrote:

I take it F/G or the P/D's even worse than Bertie :rolleyes:

You must be a Sinn Féin supporter, you don't like real democratic parties.

Hoops1888 wrote:

Like I said if he went on QandA's maybe they would have done better as Ive already said he is alot better speaking wise, yes his vote dropped but that doesnt mean if he went on the show that the whole parties vote would drop like a tonne of brick's maybe if he went on the show there might of been a chance he would have gained more vote's.

I can't see any reason to think that a man who couldn't increase his vote in his own constituency would increase his party's vote on the strength of a television appearance. Caoimhin O Caolain at least managed a very respectable gain in support so why not shove him on telly.

Hoops1888 wrote:

Parties go up parties go down, alot of people seem to think Sinn Fein will go like the PD's and just die away, I think that's very wrong sure Sinn Fein were never going to get into goverment but sooner or later they will have too.

Thats a sudden turn around from before the election, when SF were going to double it's seats and hold the balance of power in the Dáil. SF may or may not flourish, I doubt they will because they are singing from the wrong hymn sheet in this country. As I said previously, if SF in this country wants to appeal to the majority in the Republic they need to dump all those Provos from Adams on down. Their day is done and it's time for them to really go away.

Hoops1888 wrote:

In the General election in 1997 Sinn Féin received 45,603 votes and returned one TD Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin.
17th 2002 there was a shift in Irish politics when Sinn Féin made significant gains in the General Election receiving 121,039 votes (6.51%) and returning five Sinn Féin TDs to Leinster House.
2007 - 6.9% four Sinn Fein TDs.

SF cannot prosper unless it translates support into seats in the Dáil. And a national increase of less than 0.5% is not much to brag about.

Hoops1888 wrote:

In 1999 62 Councillors were elected to Local Authorities.
In the June 11 2004 Local Government elections, 126 Sinn Féin Councillors were elected to local authorities across the state.

And not one of them was able to get elected to the Dáil.

Hoops1888 wrote:

In the 1994 European elections Sinn Féin received 89,038 votes.
In the European elections in 1999 Sinn Féin received 205,808 votes across the island - 117,643 in the Six Counties (17.3%) and 88,165 (6.33%) in the 26 Counties.
In the European elections in 2004 Sinn Féin received 342,256 votes across the island - 144,541 in the Six Counties (26.3%) and 197,715 (11.1%) in the 26 Counties.

And how many of your MEPs got elected to the Dáil in 2007?

Hoops1888 wrote:

And Sinn Fein are dying? Them figure's look like their going up and up I could also put up abig write up about how well their doing in the north but my fingers are sore But here's two words Lagan Valley.

The North is irrelevant to this discussion. Sinn Féin isn't quite dying, but it is stagnant and that's just a short step away from extinction in politics.

iamhunted

i think thats a slightly different issue based on what SF *expected* would happen. They didnt expect to lose seats but they did. still though, on a local level the support for them was up as Im sure it was in other areas. I cant see how thats a bad thing.

murphaph wrote:

That doesn't square with the headscratching Jon witnessed in Parnell Square. SF accept it was a failure.

iamhunted

Mick86 wrote:

.... but it is stagnant and that's just a short step away from extinction in politics.

i 'd love to see how you can back that statement up :rolleyes: This election was a bit different than most and was mainly centred around FF and FG. We'll see what'll happen further down the line but its certainly a bit opportunist to say the party is "just a short step away from extinction" ....

Mick86

iamhunted wrote:

i 'd love to see how you can back that statement up :rolleyes: ....

A party that stagnates will not progress obviously and will eventually perish. Can you offer some scenario where SF stays at it's present level of support and manages to increase it's representation in the Dáil. Logically it cannot happen.

iamhunted wrote:

This election was a bit different than most and was mainly centred around FF and FG....

As ever.

iamhunted wrote:

We'll see what'll happen further down the line but its certainly a bit opportunist to say the party is "just a short step away from extinction" ....

Opportunist? How? I have nothing to benefit either from the demise or the rise of SF so where's the opportunity. In my opinion SF in this country needs to radically overhaul itself. Failure to do so will see it wither away because it has nothing to offer the majority. It's just common sense.

K-9

Hoops1888 wrote:

Oh here's one fact for you aswel about the man he only draws the average wage. It's funny how a man who takes back handers :rolleyes: is fit to run this country but you say these men arent.

Well Adams never answered how he financed 2 holiday homes and his own house on an average wage. He says they where financed by the bank, so he has maybe 3 mortgages.

Maybe we should have a tribunal into Adams finances?

SF are now a serious political party, their members and policies should be under the same scrutiny as the Greens etc. etc. Their manifesto seemed to be more of a wishlist rather than costed policies though I'll give them credit on one thing during the election, they said you can't promise better public services and lower taxes at the same time, in that respect they where more honest than the other political parties.

Only Cowen said obviously if we don't have the growth expected we will postpone tax cuts and fund public services instead.

Liam Byrne

Marathon Man wrote:

Fair enough Liam. Let me ask: What would it take for you to consider voting for Sinn Fein?
Try not to give a smart answer,(you can if you want) but honestly what would Sinn Fein need to do to give you a reason to give them the aul number 1?

Probably the best question I've ever been asked in relation to SF, and it deserves the respect of a straight answer.

The first step would be to get rid of the blinkers and start comparing like with like; stop excusing the actions of those in the "republican movement" who are interested in violence, and asking us to forget the past while continuously bringing up what the British and the loyalists have done. People do not have to be a member of one side or the other - we want people who can see the facts rather than the emotive and biased self-interest.

Secondly, stop being apologists for those same violent criminals; AFAIK, at least one of those involved in the murder of Gerry McCabe is still on the run. If Adams has enough influence to stop people taking the violent route, then he has enough influence to find out who authorised that atrocity and bring them to justice.

Thirdly, start to recognise that someone can be republican and still be disgusted by some of the IRA actions.

Fourthly, start to recognise this state - the one they want to be elected to represent - and stop referring to "the 26 counties", and that a crime is a crime as determined by the laws of this country, not as defined by themselves.

Fifthly, recognise that phrases like "Oglaigh na hEireann" refers to the Irish Army, and not to some self-appointed group.

Note, though, that despite my best efforts to respect your question, the above do not completely answer it; doing all of the above simply begins to make them "normal", and that they were doing what they should be doing and not doing things that they (and anyone else) should not be doing; no-one gets credit in my book for simply doing the basics of what society expects.

They would still have to prove that they were capable of implementing policies and laws that were in the interests of the greater good before there was any chance of any vote, let alone a number one.

K-9

Liam Byrne wrote:

The first step would be to get rid of the blinkers and start comparing like with like; stop excusing the actions of those in the "republican movement" who are interested in violence, and asking us to forget the past while continuously bringing up what the British and the loyalists have done. People do not have to be a member of one side or the other - we want people who can see the facts rather than the emotive and biased self-interest.

Secondly, stop being apologists for those same violent criminals; AFAIK, at least one of those involved in the murder of Gerry McCabe is still on the run. If Adams has enough influence to stop people taking the violent route, then he has enough influence to find out who authorised that atrocity and bring them to justice.

Thirdly, start to recognise that someone can be republican and still be disgusted by some of the IRA actions.

Fourthly, start to recognise this state - the one they want to be elected to represent - and stop referring to "the 26 counties", and that a crime is a crime as determined by the laws of this country, not as defined by themselves.

Fifthly, recognise that phrases like "Oglaigh na hEireann" refers to the Irish Army, and not to some self-appointed group.

Note, though, that despite my best efforts to respect your question, the above do not completely answer it; doing all of the above simply begins to make them "normal", and that they were doing what they should be doing and not doing things that they (and anyone else) should not be doing; no-one gets credit in my book for simply doing the basics of what society expects.

They would still have to prove that they were capable of implementing policies and laws that were in the interests of the greater good before there was any chance of any vote, let alone a number one.

I have to say you have put my concerns perfectly there. SF members where known to be in the pub where Robert McCartney was murdered and witnessed a lot of those events. Now if SF supporters on this board can bring up the Mahon Tribunal etc. etc. and questions about Bertie, which of course they are entilted to and in fact are encouraged to in a democracy, well surely questions about Adams finances and about SF members silence in regard to the McCartney killing needs to be brought up.

If SF are a serious political party thinking of partaking in Govt. here they should be subject to the same scrutiny as other political parties here.

And as for other being less, republican, when does learning from past mistakes and yes, the Brits, and trying to have a democratic Republic of all Ireland, that will last and be peaceful, make us less republican.

murphaph

Liam Byrne wrote:

Fourthly, start to recognise this state - the one they want to be elected to represent - and stop referring to "the 26 counties", and that a crime is a crime as determined by the laws of this country, not as defined by themselves.

Yeah, this irks a lot of people who are proud of our 26 county Republic of Ireland. It's cheeky to refer to it as anything less.

Voipjunkie

murphaph wrote:

Yeah, this irks a lot of people who are proud of our 26 county Republic of Ireland. It's cheeky to refer to it as anything less.

It might irk you but tbh honest I cannot see you voting SF no matter what they call this state
Also is it not a valid political belief that the name Republic of Ireland refers to the 32 county republic declared in 1916 and reaffirmed in the first dail and that no part of Ireland can lay claim to that name other than the 32 counties you might not share that belief but should you be allowed to force your belief that the 26 counties is the republic upon people who believe differently from you no more than they impose their belief on you.

You don't like the term 26 counties and they don't believe that a section of Ireland can use the name Irish republic outside of the 32 county meaning thats the place we live you can be insulted by it or you can deal with it.

Liam Byrne

Voipjunkie wrote:

You don't like the term 26 counties and they don't believe that a section of Ireland can use the name Irish republic outside of the 32 county meaning thats the place we live you can be insulted by it or you can deal with it.

Fair point, in a way, but in the context of the thread it simply emphasises the fact that SF cannot expect to get votes if what they "believe" in differs so fundamentally from the majority of the country that they don't even recognise the country itself.

murphaph

Liam Byrne wrote:

Fair point, in a way, but in the context of the thread it simply emphasises the fact that SF cannot expect to get votes if what they "believe" in differs so fundamentally from the majority of the country that they don't even recognise the country itself.

Exactly. I said it irks people. I'm sure it doesn't irk shinners but if SF only attract current shinner votes they're doomed to be a tiny minority party forever.

E92

What really annoys me is the way they call this country 'the south'. Then they talk about the Republic and Northern Ireland as 'this country'. But sure if they are the one country, then why dop they call for 'Irish unity'? Thats what I cant understand. Theres no logic to that. If you want Irish unity then at least refer to us as 'this jurestriction', as FF do from time to time. FF it has to be said are much more subtle but far more effective in trying to achieve the idea of the unification of the Island, with their idea of 'the all-Island' economy and sdetting up this body and that body to improve relations with NI and Britain.(And FG did some of that work too). In reality most people couldn't care less about NI other than that its peaceful, and for anyone who disagrees, if NI is so important to the people in the Republic, then why did SF go up 0.5%, and FF not gain votes?(compared to 2002).

It irkes people in the same way negative campaigning irkes the public in general.