Sorry Day for Ireland

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Boston

ianhobo wrote:

I believe the point they were making was that they couldn't affordt to immediatly go to college after finishing school, but needed to save for a year or two in order to raise the required finance.

Still managed to get a college education. Which is more then most people n the western world.

I'll explain then..... I now work in IT, a field completely UNRELATED to any form of engineering, Computer Engineering or Telecomunnications (Think microcontrollers/microprocessors, not websites and emails!)

Ha, Websites and Email is IT not Telecommunications.

ianhobo

Boston wrote:

Still managed to get a college education. Which is more then most people n the western world.



Ha, Websites and Email is IT not Telecommunications.

That is exactly what I was saying!!! Re-read what I said (unless I typed it wrong?) You're too quick to jump and attack everyone in a attempt to show how smart you are

Wow sierra seemed confused that I was working in IT, and how was that not related to my engineering courses. I attempted to explain by saying I was trained in microcontrollers, but am doing c# software development.

Do you understand now?

squonk

crazymike wrote:

Hi Ian,

I couldn't agree more with you. It really is a sad day for Ireland. I can only conclude that people in this country are afraid of political change. Again we will most likely see a party, which is tainted by corruption, governing us for the next 5 years. God bless all of us who need a hospital visit in future or who are thinking of buying a house. I am really angry, but I suppose they were voted in again "democratically". This election is making me sick already and it just can't get out of my head why people vote the same shower in all the time.

A prime minister of any other European nation, who states that "health is a peripheral issue" when it quite clearly isn't would have been voted out. Can you also imagine Gordon Brown accepting money from a whipround after holding a speech? People in the UK would have asked for his resignation.......over here in Ireland though, "aah, fair play to him for being so clever, I would have done the same". Shameful really........

I am not saying that everyone should be dammed who voted Fianna Fail, it's up to you who you vote for, but I think more people should have done their homework in regards to this election. Sorry, I'm just really pissed off and angry that again we have to put up with the same cocky and arrogant shower. The saddest thing of all is that people will be complaining in a few months time over government policies. At this stage I would even emigrate up North.....

Well said Jan! That's exactely how I feel. I do not believe that voting for the alternative govt would have magically solved everything but there would have been a real desire there on the part of Labour & FG to tackle these issues.

I'm also concerned about an argument raised by FF this time that experience counts when choosing a government and that the alternative had very little ministerial experience. I personally think that the electorate should have given these peple a chance to gain some experience. 5 years on, it will have been a long time since any of the main parties besides FF were in governemnt. I don't see this as being a very good thing for our country going forward.

dodgyme

Well Boston it is a pleasure being wrong about your background to find out that that your attitudes comes from an arrogance of being smarter than everyone else. Lets for a moment take your backgrounds sans the intelligence and you might have a different picture altogether. You have had the opportunity to work since you were 13. 15 years ago most men in this country were on the dole for the same period. However I wont take that away from you. You worked hard and were intelligent even with health problems. However it doesnt give you the right to be so tough on people and you are still young and have not had some of the hits life has to throw at you, trust me on this one. So you are still insulated, you didnt come out of college with loadsa qualifications and work on building sites for feck all cash because there was no work for people with no experience etc etc. You havent seen it and dont know. And even if you came top of your class this may still be the case. So relax the cats on the preachin.

leninbenjamin

The economy is what kept FF in power. FG had the opportunity to grill FF over the economy, the way they allowed the property to become so over inflated and how we're already seeing signs of stagnation in some sectors etc. but for the most part they did not, and focused instead on FF mismanagement of public services. this leads me to believe FG simply would not have the know how or personnel to handle a potential recession had they power, and that they would be no better, if not worse, for the economy than FF. so imo listing our knife-edge economy as one of the reasons to vote against FF is a pointless argument.

many people didn't vote FF back in because they were "duped" into it... rather they voted them back in because they felt FF came across stronger with regards to the economy.

jmayo

Boston wrote:

Ha, you've no idea how wrong you are pal. I love the way you come up with this complete BS profile of me, and others.

1) I've held down a summer Job working with my father since the age of 13. The idea being that I would learn a trade and to keep away from undesirable elements growing up.
2) Holidays, the last holiday I was on what 2 years ago to spain which I paid for myself out of the money I'd saved during the summer to keep myself in college. The only holiday I've ever had, foreign or other wise, prior to that was 6 years ago and a trip to the states which was payed for in weekly instalments over the course of 6 months.
3) Money comes so easily to me, and my ilk that I get by on the some total of 37 euros a week. Whens the last time you went to the pub? You probably spend on a Saturday night what I spend in two weeks.
4) Daddies insurance: I've never got anything off my father I didn't have to put in a solid days work on some hole of a building site for. Can you say the same? I have VHI Health care because of sever health problems as a child which basically required my working class family to spend what little money they had on the VHI to ensure that rather then spending 4 years on a waiting list I'd be seen right away and have a chance at a normal life.
5)I had the pick of what ever college I wanted for the simple reason that I'm a smart fuker and graduated top of my class from my public CBS school with **** funding but some great teachers. I was however limited to dublin as I would have need to work part time to pay my own rent had i moved out.
6) I do owe the Job I'll be starting to the economy, but not to my parents "connection". Their normal people without any pull.
7) Finally, your attitude and JMayo's attitude are not only insulter but also insulting. You talk to me like I don't know what the real world is about, I've stepped over corpses on the way home from college, and I walk past Junkies and Drunks every day on the way to college. I grew up in north inner city Dublin when people had nothing. My eyes are open.

Fair dos, you have got where you are by hard work and by being smart.
Yes your parents weren't/aren't rich and you had tough time when you were a kid with sickness and you went to over crowded school with not a lot of money available.

Even though you have experienced these difficulties you seem to have fallen into the group that have not experienced these hardships.

Would you not like to see your school get adequate funding so that kids half your age could get a chance to get half as far as you?

Would you not like to see some kid today that has similar health difficulties to those you had, get adequate treatment in a hospital without the family having to go into debt or blow the family savings?

When I was in college, most students were worried about where they would get a summer job and where they would get a job when they left college or what contry they would emigrate to.
Over last 5/10 years that is not a concern for most students.

A student can now get a loan for college/car/holiday or whatever, unlike in the bad ould days some of us speak of here.
How many students do you know that have cars, take holidays after exams etc ?

The reason a lot of older people here are peeved is that they remember when money was a lot scarer and they then see how much has been wasted by FF/PD, money that could have been spent to make a better country.

Marcus.Aurelius

It's most unfortunate that we don't have a system where the two biggest parties must join. FF need someone to kick their arses when they make serious mistakes (again) in respect of the economy and health, not to mention backhanders to developers.

Who better than the next big party, make the Dáil like our vote, 41.6% of ministers should be FF, and the rest in their respective proportions. If they wanted to, they could, and maybe the majority of views could be reflected in government, instead of the idiocy that has marred us in the last 10 years.

What we need most is someone to watch the economy and help Bertie see that he needs to spend money on infrastructure directly, without wasting public funds on backhanders and business buddies, but 100% of it going to the actual costs involved.

I doubt anyone would disagree that Bertie is a brilliant man, a genius both politically and socially. He has, unfortunately, become entrenched in corruption, and can't work without giving some friends some backhanders and projects destined to go overbudget to the tune of billions. He needs someone with him to reign in this corrupt thinking, because the money isn't there anymore and 59% of the electorate are sick of the waste of money they see, not to mention our third world health service.

Steve_o

ianhobo wrote:

Giving the way things are looking so far with the tallies, i personnaly think it is a sad day for Ireland that Fianna Fail and Bertie Ahern are back for another term.

We can now look forward to more public project mis-management, hospital privatisation (only Bertie and his rich friends will soon be able to attend), better tax breaks (again!) for the highest paid, more wonderful roads and less public transport (and no, the metro is always 3 years behind!! (see project mis-management)), more political corruption, developer corruption, greed, "The money was only resting in my briefcase" (Father Ted) oops, i mean Bertie Ahern, and we'll throw in a little bit of sucking up to aul George Bush.

While I certainly am not naive enough to think that there is a perfect goverment out there, one who can correctly manage the vast issues and money while keeping everyone happy, I believe that most could do it a damn sight better than Fianna Fail have done.

FG are not a perfect answer, but at least they would have had a bit of interest and drive in running the country for a while, rather than FF sitting on their comfortable laurels. They've lost interest, like most people lose interest in things after 10 years!!

I know of not ONE SINGLE PERSON who voted FF, but yet it seems they have a near 50% take on the votes???? Is it the same "set in their ways, regardless" (older) people carrying this? mixed with the low youth turnout ??

I am really amazed that the irish people can be soo happy with the current governmetns performance that they want them back for another term.

I'm going to stop here, because this will probably be deleted.
Sorry for the rant, just.....Grrrrrr!!!

Ian

Better the Devil ya know.......

jmayo

Yes I do agree FF/Pd have no concept of accountability and nobody seems to be responsible.
e.g LUAS over run, minister should have gone.
e-voting minister should have gone and Tasisech should have stopped being condescending and shut up about it.
PPARS minister should have gone.

But there is a bigger problem here as well, nobody appears to be responsible in the Public Service either.
How in God's name was PPARs not pulled earlier or who the hell was project managing it?
Was anybody fired or demoted within HSE/Dept of Health for this debacle?
Will anybody be fired in Dept of Environment for screw up in Register of Electors?

There is no concept of taking responsibility, both within public service and government. As a friend once heard over loudspeaker of delayed train "the train is delayed, nobody is to blame".

The buck has to stop somewhere and until that starts happening taxpayers money will be continually wasted.

Money Shot

I was very surprised at how the count turned out. I really thought FF would at least realise that they had to work harder to keep their votes, but alas I was wrong.

The people have spoken, and they still want FF in power. I don't, but now realise I am in the minortiy. I hope FF prove me wrong and show us that they do care about the public service that their people receive.

Essentially, I don't think most people in Ireland care about anyone else once they have a few bob in their pocket. People associate their extra few bob with FF, and don't want to rock the boat. In the heirarchy of needs it seems money is number one, and until the economy starts to hurt, people will put up with a lower level of health care and justice services.

Five more years seems like a very long time, but I hope in five years time, I will be one of those people saying that FF are the best option because they have done such a good job....

Boston

dodgyme wrote:

Well Boston it is a pleasure being wrong about your background to find out that that your attitudes comes from an arrogance of being smarter than everyone else. Lets for a moment take your backgrounds sans the intelligence and you might have a different picture altogether. You have had the opportunity to work since you were 13. 15 years ago most men in this country were on the dole for the same period. However I wont take that away from you. You worked hard and were intelligent even with health problems. However it doesnt give you the right to be so tough on people and you are still young and have not had some of the hits life has to throw at you, trust me on this one. So you are still insulated, you didnt come out of college with loadsa qualifications and work on building sites for feck all cash because there was no work for people with no experience etc etc. You havent seen it and dont know. And even if you came top of your class this may still be the case. So relax the cats on the preachin.

My father was unemployed for much of the 80's yet could not receive the dole as my mothers civil service job was deemed to bring in too much into the household. Ironic considering at the time the money in the civil service wasn't great and there would have been more coming into the house hold if but parents had been unemployed(Rent allowance, welfare, medical card(especially with a sick child), ect). The 80's where ****, and they where **** for people like me, is this the life lesson you want me to learn? Over the last 10 years of a FF government the situation has improved dramatically for my family. Also I never said I was smarter then everyone else.

jmayo: It would be better if you just admitted you know nothing about me and stopped with the scenarios. You and dodgyme have dragged me into discussion on class and I don't appreciate it. Bottom line is I fail to see how alternative government will succeed where FF have failed. And I see a lot of potential for messing things about even more.

I always enjoy reading the assumptions people make about FF voters. Apparently there are nearly 1,000,000 of us, all ignorant property developers too stupid to know better than to vote FF.

is_that_so

ninty9er wrote:

Having spent about a solid hour getting to this point I can honestly say that most of the Anti FF crew are looking at the "alliance"(that never existed) through rose-tinted glasses.

For all the faults of FF I can honestly hand on heart say that I don't think FG could have even matched never mind do better than FF.

The people have spoken.

Well when you are on the inside looking out it's hard to have a real perspective. And as you say the people, - a portion of the people have spoken. There is also a large swathe of people out there who did not like what they saw.
There are many, many reasons why people did not like the look of FF beyond economics and with respect "my favourite top 10" is not going to get to the core of it. We are not all anti-FF. I didn't vote for them but it doesn't make me anti-FF. I didn't vote for them because I did not like what I saw. I still shudder to think that Messr Cullen, Roche, and Dempsey will be back in there once again. Even the man with pistol to my mind is not minister material , however much work he does for his constituents.

ianhobo

Boston wrote:

You and dodgyme have dragged me into discussion on class and I don't appreciate it.

Dragged? Yes, I noticed your kicking and screaming the whole way through this thread. If you don't appreciate it, then stop replying

I beleive it was you who volunteered the story about your past and identifying your "class"

And no, you havent said you're smarter than anyone (yet) it's just your cockyness and complete un-willingness to alow anyone else to express an opinion that gives off that air

Boston

ianhobo wrote:

Dragged? Yes, I noticed your kicking and screaming the whole way through this thread. If you don't appreciate it, then stop replying

I beleive it was you who volunteered the story about your past and identifying your "class"

Their the ones turning this into a class issue. Theres only so much being accussed of being a middleclass dickhead i can take.

And no, you havent said you're smarter than anyone (yet) it's just your cockyness and complete un-willingness to alow anyone else to express an opinion that gives off that air

I haven't stoped anyone expressing an opinion. However, I refuse to the won over by incoherent opinions based on delusions.

b3t4

I'm disappointed too. I read a very interesting article in the Sunday Times magazine yesterday. It basically outlines how the greed of our parents generation is screwing up the young people's future and I had to agree with the article.

I, as a twenty four year old, am worried about a potential future in Ireland. Aspects that concern me about a future in Ireland are house prices, lack of an alternative to buying a house, childcare, healthcare, education, more and more cars on the road when the environment is of such a concern and also the lack of funding being given to places outside of Dublin, basically a complete lack of foresight for the future, my future.

I had hoped for a change. I had hoped that the people of Ireland were more concerned about the overall issues than the money in their pockets but I was wrong. I'm aware that the altertive had their faults but I was willing to give them the chance. I was willing to give them the experience that they require. If lack of experience is a reason to not vote a party in then when will there ever be a change.

I'm fortunate that I get to leave this country in two months but I do hope that this countries future is brighter than I currently feel it is.

A

Heinrich

Steve_o wrote:

Better the Devil ya know.......

Until you pull him by the tail...

ianhobo

Boston wrote:

Their the ones turning this into a class issue. Theres only so much being accussed of being a middleclass dickhead i can take.

ha ha

I haven't stoped anyone expressing an opinion. However, I refuse to the won over by incoherent opinions based on delusions.

Accepted

But its the stuff like adding on "delusions" ......anyway...

squonk

I was disappointed that the election this time turned out the way it did. It made me start to worry about the country's future because I am definitely not very happy with the ever increasing move to an american style of privatisation here.

In my opinion, it was always our social welfare and social insurance system that was a good thing about living here. Now you face long waiting lists and are almost forced to go privately if you can afford it for practicality. Not everyone can do this however. Those that can't face long waiting lists and nights on trollies for those unfortuante enough to require emergency care.

I have always been an enthusiastic voter but never felt it was worth my while joining a political party. As it is however right now, I'm so dissatisfied with what happened at this general election that I've decided I can either complain about what happened or lend some support to getting the current crowd out of office next time round.

Lennoxschips

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

historically yes, but i'm judging the two parties on what they've done in the last 20 years.

historically the US democrats were confederate slave drivers, but they were the party that pushed through the civil rights act in the 60s. things change.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Lennoxschips

yes, and the gardai marching all over his party political broadcast was a bit weird too

jmayo

Boston wrote:

Their the ones turning this into a class issue. Theres only so much being accussed of being a middleclass dickhead i can take.

I haven't stoped anyone expressing an opinion. However, I refuse to the won over by incoherent opinions based on delusions.

Maybe it is class issue to a degree.
I don't believe I stated you were middlecalss anything.
What I have said is that I now see where a sizeable chunk of FF support has come from, the teens and twenty somethings area of society, most of which have gone to college and have or about to start career.
So rather than being called middle class maybe we should call it the educated class.
And yes you are part of that demographic.
I also compared how that age group have had more economic benefits than previous groups.

Actually it is you that has been making assumptions on whether other posters have a right to discuss subjects and been condescending towards other posters.

Boston wrote:

Originally Posted by Boston
Electronic and Computer Engineering infact. I suggest you shut up about something you know nothing about.

"Computers, thats like IT yea?"

I actually do know something about the subject, since I happen to have a BE Electronics and MEng Computers and over 15 years post grad experience.

Now I think we are just going round in circles here, "never the twain shall meet" and all that, so lets move on.

DarkJager

squonk wrote:

As it is however right now, I'm so dissatisfied with what happened at this general election that I've decided I can either complain about what happened or lend some support to getting the current crowd out of office next time round.

Its sad to say but in 5 years time, its still going to be no use voting. The Irish public are obviously blind, and FF will be re-elected again. Hell, they could even do worse to this country, and people will still vote for them. I'm personally getting out of here as soon as possible. I no longer want to live in a country where the people who actually have the chance to make a change, ignore it in favor of a corrupt government.

DJDC

What I have said is that I now see where a sizeable chunk of FF support has come from, the teens and twenty somethings area of society, most of which have gone to college and have or about to start career.
So rather than being called middle class maybe we should call it the educated class.

I dont really think you are right in saying that.Check this out.

http://www.ucd.ie/observer/v11i07/n-ira.html

In the poll, Sinn Féin amassed 18 per cent of the vote of the 18-24 age category. This support is mainly derived, not from the student vote, but from those in employment in this category. Fianna Fáil are the most popular among Irish youth with 30 per cent of the vote and Fine Gael, the main opposition party, court 19 per cent. The Labour Party received 15 per cent while the Progressive Democrats amassed just 1 per cent.

You will find amongst the educated classes, FF vote is lower than the country average.

DJDC

DJDC wrote:

You will find amongst the educated classes, FF vote is lower than the country average.

Could you quote a source for that please?

Then we can all analyse the stats.

irish_bob

Lennoxschips Quote:
Originally Posted by daveirl
Historically FG would always have been regarded as centre right with FF being regarded as centre left.


historically yes, but i'm judging the two parties on what they've done in the last 20 years.

historically the US democrats were confederate slave drivers, but they were the party that pushed through the civil rights act in the 60s. things change.


FF and FG are both centre right and have been for quite a long time
on policy issues , thier is no difference between them
thier is a personality difference between the 2 partys , FF are cute hoors where as FG are stuffed shirts , i said stuffed shirts not the brown kind , FG are dull , thier the least trendy party out there

as some one who is from a mixed marriage , my dad was fine gael, my mom from a very strong west of ireland fianna fail family , i myself am a pd as regards my outlook but i have no problem voting for someone in my constituency if i think they have talent regardless of thier party affiliation , well apart from the greens or sinn fein at the present time , at the present .

fianna fail won because they have the political phenomonon that is bertie aherne to attract people who put personalitys over policy , they have by and large been efficent in the job , thier seen as being a bit dodgy but they get the job done , but as eddie hobbs said on radio yeseterday , when irish people hear the high brow greens talking about fianna fail needing to take a good bath , its a real turn off as most irish people like thier politicians to be a bit dirty , were a bit mediteranian in that way in ireland , its a catholic thing
we dont do the self rightous thing like they do in the uk or germany or scandinavia , were more concerned about the economy than we are about ethics , most irish people are not concerned with corruption , especially fianna fail voters

thier a shower of cute hoors the bould fianna fail but they grab the bull by the horns and get the job done

miju

irish_bob wrote:

Lennoxschips Quote:
they grab the bull by the horns and get the job done

sorry i nearly spit of my tea reading that. i'd quite happily have anyone here to point one occasion where FF grabbed the bull by the horns. hell i'd even settle for an example of getting a job done (apart from the hoodwinking of the nation we've just witnessed)

Ruen

PCros wrote:

Oh dear.....Ok I'm from Swords, middle of the road town and I'm not rich! I voted FF coz they are the only party with balls!

Yes you wanted FG and Labour....two parties with conflicting policies? Good stuff!

And if FF go with the Greens that'll be....two parties with conflicting policies. Good stuff!:rolleyes:
Have a look at the FG and Labour manifestos, they are agreed on their respective policies.