Sorry Day for Ireland

jmayo

From looking at the threads on here one thing is becoming apparent.
The biggest Bertie/FF fans are teens and twenty somethings.
Some of these have left college and some are about to.

Their experience of Irish life has been good, jobs are reasonably plentiful, they can get easy bank loans, they have not had to emigrate or may not have to like some older folks on here.
They can afford a nice car, multiple foreign holidays/trips and maybe even year out around the world.

Their only real problem is buying a home, but hey they have been offered 40 year mortgage and their ould pair have done well with their house and are offering them a dig out.
Of course property always go up in value, so even if they buy in Kildare or Meath , they can always move back to their own area in a few years when their appartment goes up in value.

Actually some of them have bought multiple properties, using smart gearing and interest only mortgages.

They do not need to worry about health services, that is for elderly or sick people.

None of the above have lived through a recession/depression like Ireland had in the 80s and very few of the above see the stormclouds on the horizon.
To date Bertie has been there and the good times have rolled on, so vote him back in.

So they all jump on board the Bertie gravy train, but beware the bridge over the gorge ahead maybe out and that train will be quickly derailed.

Jeeze, maybe it was a good thing the election was not at weekend or FF might have got an overall majority.

Lennoxschips

A metro may indeed be overkill for Dublin, seeing as it is mostly unplanned low density urban sprawl.... but then who's fault is that?

If you read the FG/Lab paper from 1997 I posted earlier you will see that they advocated medium density development close to the city, which would have allowed public transport systems such as metro, and other public amenities, to be used to their full potential.

FF have let the developers build Dublin (and the rest of Ireland) and put profit before people.

dan719

PCros wrote:

Trust me I do agree with those points you make, sure the one that bugs me the most is the lack of immigration rules, people are just flooding into this country without being checked out and then they are given benifits galore!

QUOTE]

Flooding in you say. Benefits galore. I am sorry but you have no idea. As an Irishman whose parents emigrated when I was young I am disgusted by your comment. People do not wish to leave there homelands, without very good cause-i.e war or unemployment. To claim that these people take benefits galore is ridiculous as the majority are in paid employment and pay taxes- which is more then can be said for many indigenous residents. It is well known that without immigrants our economic boom would have crashed already due to a supply of labour of labour deficit and the upward pressure on wages this would have caused. Take off the blinkers for a while.

mloc

All this talk of recession is quite amusing. It's being highly exagerrated. Sure, the property market's rate of expansion is unsustainable; however, the idea that the bottom will fall out of the market and house prices plummet is scaremongering; at worst, prices will stabilise with perhaps some peripheral areas suffering from minor price falls.

Get real, there's no huge depression on its way.

miju

whats your basis for that mloc or is it just your opinion? cos if you want i can quite clearly show you how the bottom is about is fall out of the property market as soon as stamp duty is touched

and as for the bad times ahead for the general economy , you can bet your bottom dollar there are very rough times ahead tax increases will be here shortly. so far this year the governments tax take is down €2 billion on last year and more to come to be sure

mloc

miju wrote:

whats your basis for that mloc or is it just your opinion? cos if you want i can quite clearly show you how the bottom is about is fall out of the property market as soon as stamp duty is touched

and as for the bad times ahead for the general economy , you can bet your bottom dollar there are very rough times ahead tax increases will be here shortly. so far this year the governments tax take is down €2 billion on last year and more to come to be sure

Very rough times ahead?!

Seriously, what are you expecting? Back to the 80s? There are simply no signs that this is the case. House prices in dublin may not continue to rise as quickly as they have been, and now is certainly not a good time to buy in to the market, but all the same a small slowdown in house price increases will only serve to increase the amount of first time buyers buying without resorting to huge debt.

I find it somewhat also amusing your a conspiracy theories mod.

LegacyUser

gandalf wrote:

Well I can see why you voted FF so, the one party that will do its worst to deliver anything.

TBH if I responded to your comment in the way I wanted I would have to then ban myself (which I can't do because I tried it before!).

To be honest, if you ever want to have a decent conversation about Fianna Fail then give me a call and come on over and talk it out because I guarantee you that you will leave my house with a change in mind especially once you get talking to my dad...afterall, your a politics mod, so you have an interest in politics...we'll see who knows more about politics when you leave my house.

gandalf

cheesedude wrote:

To be honest, if you ever want to have a decent conversation about Fianna Fail then give me a call and come on over and talk it out because I guarantee you that you will leave my house with a change in mind especially once you get talking to my dad...

Well thats an oxymoron if I have ever seen one, a decent conversation about FF. Decent is not a word I would associate with FF.

Unless FF decide to get rid of the criminals in their organisation and put proper safeguards for ethics in place, sever the links with developers and actually take responsibility when they cock up I don't think your dad could ever convert me even if he was Jesus Christ!!

Boston

legs11 wrote:

the government in the uk, had the foresight to develop the worlds largest underground system eons ago for london. predicting a massive growth in population.

Wasn't london underground mainly built by private enterprise.

miju

so in otherwords mloc you actaully have no reasoning for your opinion and have taking to trying to take the piss out of me instead

thought as much

mloc

miju wrote:

so in otherwords mloc you actaully have no reasoning for your opinion and have taking to trying to take the piss out of me instead

Hey, no need to get all paranoid.

Most of my reasoning was in the first paragraph. I can continue.

Overall spending has been reduced somewhat, this could be due to several factors. Firstly, the scaremongering by certain political elements often causes consumers to become less active, and saving activites have increased in the last six or so months to mirror this lack of spending.

Talk of economic downturn often causes a placebo effect that is reflected by changes in consumer activity and subsequent apperant signs of an actual downturn. This is nothing more than a minor "blip" that does not undermine the fact that we still, and will continue to have, a strong ecomony that is no longer wholly dependent on unsustainable elements such as agriculture and mass tourism but instead focussed on a developing educated workforce which has earned us the foriegn investments we see today.

miju

you still haven't given any solid reason for the economy to keep going all you have posted is waffle and soundbites with no figures

what i was after was something of substance. rather than repear myself have a look see at this post for starters on my argument , then when your done replying to some of those points we can move on to some more complex figures

shoegirl

bemmet wrote:

I came in here expecting this ridiculous level of commentary and am not dissapointed.

It must have been the stupid people who voted Fianna fail ,how could they do such a ridiculous thing ?I know so much better - why can the population not see what I see, that type of juvenile stuff.

On Friday I was queuing for a Ryanair flight in Cork airport and the following incident occured.
Two ladies standing in front of me were looking down at the planes waiting outside.
One of them said "Look, that must be our plane there" pointing to the Ryanair plane outside.
"Ah no," said her friend, "it has to be that one there" pointing to an Aer Arann plane waiting for a flight to Edinburgh.
Like if people are so stupid that they can be standing in a queue for a Ryanair flight and think that a non-Ryanair aircraft is theirs, it doesn't surprise me that they cannot see through and reject the kind of deceit practised by parties such as FF on such simple folk. Our problem in much of Ireland is the massive brain-drain out of the country in the 1980s, much of it never to return. It left behind a lot of simple people too stupid to see the wood for the trees.

It doesn't surprise me whatsoever, except for Galway, where I am amazed that a party that has managed to deliver a water system that puts people in hospital can still manage to get a really great result at the polls. People there deserve what they get. Then again, the demographic theory is a strong one - but we can only wait and see what real impact that has in 10 years time.

bk

miju wrote:

you still haven't given any solid reason for the economy to keep going all you have posted is waffle and soundbites with no figures

Well according to an OECD report last week, the economy is expected to grow 5.5% this year and slow to a still very healthy 4.1% in 2008.

Remember 2% growth is considered good steady growth, anything over that is considered very fast growth.

Well it is unlikely we won't continue to grow at the excessive rate of the last 10 years (actually a very good thing with respect to inflation and the cost of doing business here), there is absolutely nothing to indicate that we are going to return to the bad old days of the 80's.

The US economy is moderating and it doesn't look like it is going to crash, the EU economy is very strong and doing well, so no signs of the external factors that would cause a crash in the Irish economy, only a stabilisation in growth rates due to higher EU interest rates.

shoegirl

Boston wrote:

Wasn't london underground mainly built by private enterprise.

It was built by several large companies, all private, who to a large extent dictated the future growth patterns in London by extending the lines well outside the city boundaries into places like Golders Green on the northern side. In the following years builders were then able to develop around areas like that, knowing that there was an automatic draw to the area. It very strongly dictated outer growth patterns in the years that followed.

It wasn't so much foresight as opportunism: I can only assume that the same people who developed the northern line also had strong investment links to the building industry so were serving themselves well by running transport links out to what was at the time green belts. As it happened none of the companies who developed the underground made much if any profit, and most were gradually bought out by other companies, the entire network being nationalised in the 1930s.

Interestingly enough, a lot of those same companies were also operators and builders of lines in Ireland. At one point Cork city (to give a less well known example) had 3 city railway stations and a tram system in addition to that. It was only when the network was nationalised that the line and station closures started. Then again, who only knows what the private operators would have done had they not been nationalised.

This is off topic, however, I do think that the election results are shameful and show incredible naivety on the part of the electorate, particularly considering that proven corrupt politicians such as Michael Lowry and Beverly Cooper Flynn can command such huge polls. It is only in Ireland that a politician who is proven to have acted in vested interests can get re-elected, never mind routed out by the media.

At the end of the day, you get what you elect. Lets not be whinging in 2 or 3 years time at the state of the health service or the economy. This is what 41% of you chose.

bk

shoegirl wrote:

It doesn't surprise me whatsoever, except for Galway, where I am amazed that a party that has managed to deliver a water system that puts people in hospital can still manage to get a really great result at the polls. People there deserve what they get. Then again, the demographic theory is a strong one - but we can only wait and see what real impact that has in 10 years time.

Remember the water system in Galway is run by the local council, not the government and the mayor of that local council is a Green :eek:

Interestingly that mayor was running in the election for the greens and he didn't get elected, indicating that people did in fact punish one of the preople responsible.

miju

mmmm I seem to remember something in that same OECD report that had dire warnings about Ireland let me have a read over it so I can dig it out for ye

Lennoxschips

bk wrote:

there is absolutely nothing to indicate that we are going to return to the bad old days of the 80's.

unless you get sick

it was on the back of the independent (somebody else bought it) today that the average life expectancy for cystic fibrosis sufferers in ireland is 21 years of age. in the us it is 41 and the UK the mid to late 30s.

absolutely sickening.

Heinrich

bk wrote:

Remember the water system in Galway is run by the local council, not the government and the mayor of that local council is a Green :eek:

Interestingly that mayor was running in the election for the greens and he didn't get elected, indicating that people did in fact punish one of the preople responsible.

I believe that the buck stops with the Minister for the Environment! The same goes for the Minister for the Hospital Mess and MRSA. She refers all commentary to the HSE who trot out our favourite old chestnut "We do not comment on individual cases".

The Muppet

Lennoxschips wrote:

unless you get sick

it was on the back of the independent (somebody else bought it) today that the average life expectancy for cystic fibrosis sufferers in ireland is 21 years of age. in the us it is 41 and the UK the mid to late 30s.

absolutely sickening.

Did it give a reason for the differences? Are you suggesting we would be better off if we adopted the american system for our health service?

Boston

Oh for ****s shake. I'm an educated man I'm far from stupid, I voted for Fianna Fail. If people are as stupid and malable as you suggest, then the other parties should have had an easier time convincing them to go against FF.

Lennoxschips

the reason is that cf sufferers need to regularily come to the hospital, but they have weak immune systems. they get bunged in overfull wards with all the other sick people where they contract all sorts of things like mrsa. they need to be in isolated wards where they can get proper treatment.

dunno if we should adopt the US system, i'd have a look at the continental europe system first.

my sister was in a dutch public hospital for a while. she had a private room with ensuite bathroom and cable television.

wow sierra

ronoc wrote:

. FF have been in office for 23 out of the last 25 years. They are out of touch, arrogent and able to escape any ministerial fault while simultaniously claiming credit for their sucesses.

Whatever you may accuse Fianna Fáil of they are NEVER OUT OF TOUCH. Never. According to the Times( I think ) on Saturday they are imbedded in all aspects of the community. They used to call it being in touch with the grass roots - but sure we will have to change with the times.!!

They get away with their faults because of their sucesses - thats just common sense. If a striker misses a sitter but scores a hat-trick do you spend the next week talking about the one he missed????? Apparently you do if you are some commentators and people in this country. You can focus on the negative and ignore the positive on this thread for ever - it doesnt change the reality.

Boston

Boston wrote:

Oh for ****s shake. I'm an educated man I'm far from stupid, I voted for Fianna Fail. If people are as stupid and malable as you suggest, then the other parties should have had an easier time convincing them to go against FF.

LoL
Thats one of the the best posts I've read on this thread.

Heinrich

The Muppet wrote:

Did it give a reason for the differences? Are you suggesting we would be better off if we adopted the american system for our health service?

Maybe you could read this article taken from the Irish Times last Wednesday, 23 May 2007. It is an account of a CF sufferer's miseries.

Giblet

shoegirl wrote:

On Friday I was queuing for a Ryanair flight in Cork airport and the following incident occured.
Two ladies standing in front of me were looking down at the planes waiting outside.
One of them said "Look, that must be our plane there" pointing to the Ryanair plane outside.
"Ah no," said her friend, "it has to be that one there" pointing to an Aer Arann plane waiting for a flight to Edinburgh.
Like if people are so stupid that they can be standing in a queue for a Ryanair flight and think that a non-Ryanair aircraft is theirs, it doesn't surprise me that they cannot see through and reject the kind of deceit practised by parties such as FF on such simple folk.

Complete and utter waffle! Did you go up to them and ask them who they were voting for afterwards? It'd suit you to think everyone voting for Fianna Fail was some bumbling idiot. Get over yourself.

Liam Byrne

Whatever you may accuse Fianna Fáil of they are NEVER OUT OF TOUCH. Never.

That's a complete load of b*****x, as trotted out by FF.

The U.S. using Shannon - out of touch
Health services - out of touch
Broadband - out of touch
New roads, rail, tram, metro and terminal services in Dubln but screw the rest of us - out of touch
House prices & general, crazy inflation rates - out of touch
Rural post offices & essential services - COMPLETELY out of touch
Considering releasing Gerry McCabe's murderers - out of touch until McDowell reigned him in

Add in whether they reckon it's OK to get dodgy payments and do dodgy deals - that's both Bert and Ernie (sorry, Charlie) - and you've got a party that has no planning or management skills and does what THEY want regardless of what's right or what will benefit the country.

I heard on the radio today that Bert's major coup was to have HIS fast on the FF'in posters, coz people like Bert, and if he wasn't leader FF wouldn't have got in :eek:

Shows that we can't slag off the U.S. electorate anymore, anyway, for voting arseways......I mean, I like my cousin, who's also one of my best mates, but I don't think I'd let him try to run a country........

As the phrase goes

---

G.U.B.U.

Musha

Why is it every election we hear the students compmaining about not being able to vote because they are in College on polling day, Have you not got the brains or energy to get your postal vote orgainise before the cut off? Be proactive guys and pull your fingers out and stop compaining. God help the days when most teens and 20's could not vote because they where working on a building site or Bars in London and that was only 15/20 years ago.

Musha

Why is it every election we hear the students compmaining about not being able to vote because they are in College on polling day, Have you not got the brains or energy to get your postal vote orgainise before the cut off? Be proactive guys and pull your fingers out and stop compaining. God help the days when most teens and 20's could not vote because they where working on a building site or Bars in London and that was only 15/20 years ago.

mloc

mloc wrote:

All this talk of recession is quite amusing. It's being highly exagerrated. Sure, the property market's rate of expansion is unsustainable; however, the idea that the bottom will fall out of the market and house prices plummet is scaremongering; at worst, prices will stabilise with perhaps some peripheral areas suffering from minor price falls.

Get real, there's no huge depression on its way.

Here are some facts to chew on.

Prices have already fallen across the board.

The economist, the world bank and some leading Irish economists put our house prices at up to 60% overvalued.

Up to 30% of houses are unoccupied.

We are building 80,000 houses a year.

What is clear is that there is no shortage of houses. High prices have been fuelled by cheap available credit and sentiment /speculation.

The rush to get on the ladder and the mistaken belief that house prices never fall has created a situation where people have over stretched themselves to buy these houses which in effect places more upward pressure on prices. The belief that prices never fall is important because in effect it gives the buyer a way out as long as prices keep rising. When this doesn't occur you will start to see nervous homeowners and investors like we have had over the past few months.

The moral of the story is the value of your house is what you manage to sell it for not what it is valued at.
If house prices were inflated when you bought there is defiantly the possibility they could fall.

I expect the market to pick up here temporarily when incoming government introduces its stamp duty measures. I expect the next interest rate rises coming shortly to be the end of that and we will see either a sharp hard correction or a long drawn out depression of the market. But make no mistake it is coming.

Its not unique to Ireland its happened all around the world and the signs are always the same. I feel sorry for the people who have had to take out bumper mortgages but with banks selling and leasing back their property, estate agents firing staff and housing inventories rising I'm afraid the writing is on the wall.
Its squeaky bottom time.