Medical report needed?

G17

Now here's a thread that might divide.

I recently had a discussion pertaining to the introduction of licences being renewed every three years.

A suggestion was made that a medical cert should be required by a licensee to secure licence renewal. The inference was that this 'might' discover any psychosis, addictions or other condition that a shooter may have developed in the interim that might prove him/her 'unsuitable' to hold a firearm.

A certificate of 'fitness' to hold a firearm would be issued by a shooter's G.P., based on medications the shooter was currently taking, for example Paraxetine which has been linked to suicide. Even, it was suggested, very poor eyesight might be a reason for non issue on safety grounds!

At present if you haven't come to the attention of our gallant police force (any person of intemperate habits et al.) you are pretty much issued your firearm certificate when you pay the fee each July.

I was initially horrified at the suggestion that there be yet another barrier in place when seeking a plinker or a splatter. But, I know of several cases where possibly, just possibly, such a scheme could have saved someone. Now I realise the whole, "they could have hanged or poisoned themselves argument" is a valid one but those shooters among us who choose to shoot animals are all too aware of the swift and conclusive outcome of a well placed shot. I know, heavens forbid, what option I'd choose for the unthinkable.

My discussion became quite heated; How would you regulate, what is deemed an 'at risk' condition, schizophrenia, panic attacks, smoking a joint when you were in college??? How long does someone need to be off a certain medication before being deemed 'fit' again?? What if you don't like going to a G.P. in the first place (like many men, for instance)?? What if you've been shooting for donkey's years safely with this condition.........?

Can't decide if this is a really ridiculously unworkable idea or a smart one.
If I had to add my two cents I would say some good, logical points but nigh on impossible to administer fairly.

I am interested to hear your thoughts.

newby.204

Why should i have to pay yet another fee to get my licence?, what makes my GP qualified to make psychological evaluation? Why should we as shooters give the guards yet another tool, in their oh so varied and changing toolbox, to block, withhold and revoke our licences?

Vegeta

impossible to implement even if it was a good idea (which it is not).

A clean bill of health at license issue is no insurance that a person wont go off the deep end in the next three years.

Waste of time and money, put the efforts elsewhere like training (buddy system) overhaul of license system (one man one license, all certs on that license) structured application process or even better actually educate the gardai on the ground dealing with firearms applications.

newby.204

Vegeta wrote:

impossible to implement even if it was a good idea (which it is not).

A clean bill of health at license issue is no insurance that a person wont go off the deep end in the next three years.

Waste of time and money, put the efforts elsewhere like training (buddy system) overhaul of license system (one man one license, all certs on that license) structured application process or even better actually educate the gardai on the ground dealing with firearms applications.

Ref;emboldened text

Isnt it shocking sometimes how little some of them know about firearms, yes its our hobby naturally you learn about your hobby, however its their job we are paying them to do and they dont bother to know anything, to some of them a gun is a gun is a gun!!!

Vegeta

newby.204 wrote:

Isnt it shocking sometimes how little some of them know about firearms, yes its our hobby naturally you learn about your hobby, however its their job we are paying them to do and they dont bother to know anything, to some of them a gun is a gun is a gun!!!

The problem doesn't stem from the average garda though, they receive no training at all on the matter.

There is no official Firearms Officer, its a position just dished out to somebody at the station who has the same training as every other garda in there.

What should happen is that if someone is assigend the task of dealing with firearms in the locality then they should have to sit the training to bring them up to speed on everything gun.

The current system is terrible, because the Super says yes or no then there needs to be a garda in every station capable of dealing with the applications. Then it cant be one in a center location as they need some form of character reference which cant really be done very well remotely.

So the only remaining option is stick with the current Super saying yes or no but give the poor guys dealing with the paper work the necessary training. I feel sorry for them really

Traumadoc

Vegeta wrote:

impossible to implement even if it was a good idea (which it is not).

A clean bill of health at license issue is no insurance that a person wont go off the deep end in the next three years.

True - most of the adverse incidents are not due to identifiable mental illness- its more anger management and personality disorders.

Clare gunner

They are trying/tried to do this in Germany after DErfurt high school shooting.And it is a GRADE 1 Disaster!!
No one knows who is supposed to issue the fitness certs, or wants to do it either,as if it is a false diagnosis,it has a adverse knock on effect on a persons life outside shooting.IE you lose your liscense to drive etc.And you the shrink are open as is the dept who employs you to a nice litigation case.
So if the Germans who have their gun laws pretty watertight,dont want to touch this with a 10 ft pole.What sort of a clusterF@+K would we produce here?:mad:

Sparks

Actually, if you read the new Firearms Act, the Gardai have the power to do this quite legally already, albiet in a roundabout way. In order to apply, you must give them permission to interview your doctor/shrink to assess suitability.

And no, it makes no sense, and I doubt the Irish Mental Health bodies would back up the idea as anything but nonsense. Hell, to be certified free from psychosis/schitzophrenia/sociopathy or other pathologies requires weeks of monitoring in a mental care facility in the UK - where would you do that in Ireland?

Even if you ignore the fact that entering our mental health system means the suspension of all your legal rights including habeus corpus, there's the small matter of there not being enough space as it is, let alone with 100,000 people or more all looking for a spot for a three-week stay in July...

ArthurJ

G17 wrote:

My discussion became quite heated; How would you regulate, what is deemed an 'at risk' condition, schizophrenia, panic attacks, smoking a joint when you were in college??? How long does someone need to be off a certain medication before being deemed 'fit' again?? What if you don't like going to a G.P. in the first place (like many men, for instance)?? What if you've been shooting for donkey's years safely with this condition.........?

Shortly after Christmas I had a conversation, with a fellow club member, on this very subject.

Some years ago he went through a bad patch and as a result was treated for depression. He is well now and has not received any treatment for several years. Now with the new Firearms Act he is required, under penalty of law, to declare that on his renewal application.

His concerns now are who, if anyone, will/can declare him as fit to hold a licence. It certainly can not be a Garda.

My own view is that, if a Super sees a reference to any form of mental illness on an application he will, as a matter of course, refuse it and let someone else sort it out.

I cannot see any doctor getting involved for the reasons pointed out by CG.
A judge cannot decide without medical guidance.

I believe that anyone who has ever had a mental health issue, and declares it on an application, will be refused a licence.

kowloon

System could go out of control.
Diabetics not being allowed shoot in case they go hypo and take a bad shot, Epileptics having seizures with a live firearm,
Bad hayfever, sneeze, bad aim :rolleyes:

Its not clear cut enough to work.

Its another handfull of notes in a doctors pocket though.

Traumadoc

Actually it would be a PITA that I would not like to provide. not matter how much yoyos come my way- you have an acute psychotic episode and injure someone, I get sued by the victim.

A better system is what I did in Australia, patients who expresses the opinion that they might do harm to themselves or others using firearms, had their details recorded and a notice was faxed to the firearms branch, If they had access to legal firearms these were removed, if they applied for a licence they were red flagged.

Sparks

ArthurJ wrote:

I believe that anyone who has ever had a mental health issue, and declares it on an application, will be refused a licence.

I don't think you have to declare it - making the application itself will be implicitly granting permission for the Super to check your medical record with your doctor. Which means you aren't required to declare it to anyone, the law doesn't trust you that much. It just trusts you with the firearm afterwards :rolleyes:

I have to agree with your sentiment though. There is a definite and well-noted prejudice in Ireland against any form of mental health issue. Someone who gets treatment for even a mild mental health problem like depression is facing a lot of funny looks at best if they mention it in public in this country.

Clare gunner

Another question is;would the doc even reveal that info to the Super???Even with your permission.There is the thing about patient/doctor confidientially.It is even to a point that the Doc does not even have to give YOU your own medical file here.[Had this in two medical cases I worked on here].
It is an odd situation here with some laws here.One side claiming overriding need based on the public good or public information,and other laws or people over riding that on the privacy laws.
Either which way,it is a same question like on the US firearms purchase form,have you ever smoked marijuanna,or taken proscribed drugs?Or have you any mental illness or been declared so by a court to be so?
Guess how many people tick the yes box on that one?
That makes two presidents,numerous senators and movie stars,and a few million US citizens up for a trip to the big house some day.:D Not that it is very effective either. Cho in Virginia despite being declaled mentally unstable by a court,was still able to buy two guns.Guess he didnt tick the Yes box either.:(

astraboy

I agree with the sentiment, but remember this is Ireland. We do not even have properly trained FAO's. Having to get your mental health checked out is just another tool to delay a firearms application. To be honest, speaking from my own perspective, if I want to get a firearms cert I would need to join a gun club. The local lads know me, I have friends in the gun club(not yet a member as being away in college/I am travelling for the summer but am joining in sept). One of them needs to propose me and one to second me to join. If they know you are a bit of a "weirdo" for want of a better word, and that you may do yourself or someone else harm with a gun, then you probably won't find someone to propose you into the club. This is in a small rural area though.


To be honest I just see a system like this getting abused. The guards do not even get proper firearms training, how can they interpret a mental health report in relation to the granting of a cert? Having the guards to have a meeting with you to discuss your planned firearms usage would probably be more benifical, and of course brining in the one man one license would help too.

maglite

this reminds me of a case in a russian court

a borderline loony was up in court and was about to be assesed

the defence lawer got up and declaired that on the previous 7 times the looney had been assed he was found to be sane and had the 7 certs to prove it

he then went on to ask the judge to produce his cert of sanity,

can we employ this tactick here,, "Of course we will get our members to undergo a sanity test minister bu8t may we request you produce your cert of sanity as a precondition

Clare gunner

Welcome to Kafkaville,Ireland.:rolleyes:

cavan shooter

A couple of years ago I was told to take time off work by my Doctor (2 months) as He was of the opinion that I was suffering from work related stress........

I wouldn't own up to suffering from stress for fear it would affect my ability to hold a fire arm. I agree with the above comments, What would decide, or how would the gardai decide what constitued a danger to himself or others.

ArthurJ

Sparks wrote:

I don't think you have to declare it

Sparks it’s my understanding that, following Abbeylara, the new three year licence application/renewal forms will include a “ do you or have you ever suffered from any form of mental health illness” type question.

Sparks

If I remember rightly, that was a suggestion put forward by the NARGC to the Barr Tribunal. I don't know if it was taken up by the DoJ, but if it was, I've not heard any official statement about it.

Clare gunner

ArthurJ wrote:

Sparks it’s my understanding that, following Abbeylara, the new three year licence application/renewal forms will include a “ do you or have you ever suffered from any form of mental health illness” type question.

How many people after reading this will put down Yes??
Too broad a question.