Michael McDowell Retires from public life

Akrasia

keystone wrote:

Interest Rate rises have a minimal effect on the markey. When the next Govt is in and the Stamp Duty crap is put to bed finally, you will see the market bounce back and rise steadily.

An economics professor are we?
Interest rates have a minimal effect on the how much people will borrow?
The doubling of mortgage repayments isn't having an effect on people's ability to constantly increase their bids on an inflated asset that we are expected to believe will keep on inflating forever?

I can see why McDowell left but Higgins ?
McDowells personality had more to do with it than his policies-otherwise FF wouldnt have came back with a slightly increased 1st preference share and Brian Lenihan topping the poll in that constituency.
There was no viable pd there or one to unseat so your theory doesnt stand up.

What does stand up though is a move to the big mainstream parties.
As many have said in the media in the last day or so-that would be the nice cars in the driveway and the houses people own kicking in.

Human nature being universal,self interest always wins out.

I am sorry to see Higgins go though.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

An economics professor are we?
Interest rates have a minimal effect on the how much people will borrow?
The doubling of mortgage repayments isn't having an effect on people's ability to constantly increase their bids on an inflated asset that we are expected to believe will keep on inflating forever?

The market always clears at a certain price akrasia.
That includes the sale of mortgages which is a product and of course houses.
Once demand is there for both, the sellers adapt.
That means high prices when the market can bear it and lower or stable prices when that fits the bill.

Oh and please don't make your posting personal-thanks*

* general warning to everybody-this is not after hours-you attack the post here not the poster.

Diogenes

keystone wrote:

Interest Rate rises have a minimal effect on the markey.

Um so the amount you have to pay doesn't effect the market?

What?

And I would not put McDowell and vision in the same sentence however I will admit you either love him or hate him.

I'm really confused politics isn't a spectator sport, or a form of pantomine, so those disappointed about McDowell going because of the craic, I would suggest you get your fix of "love em or hate em" figures from Corrie or Eastenders.

This was a man who used parlimentary priviledge to make unfounded accusations, who accused the IRA of commiting the NI bank raid, yet several years later has abjectly failed to achieve any prosecutions. It took him seven years to fufill a campaign promise of the Ombudsman, and he read contraversial legislation into the record in Irish, to avoid, a real Dail debate.

He was a failure as a Minister for Justice, a failure as a party leader, and his disgraceful "left wing government?" campaign wasn't so much as the last nail in coffin, but the stake through the heart of the career of a dispicable man.

hurdehur

kbannon wrote:

He gave even less thought about the taxpayer then!

He may have wanted the incinerator stopped but AFAIK he did sweet FA to stop it!

Check out this link, kbannon! Or even this!. He had no problems fighting against the incinerator in his own backyard but when the residents near the proposed new over-priced and badly-placed prison wanted to meet him he would only do it on condition that it was assumed the prison was going ahead! Ignorant, arrogant hypocrite! Now the people have dealt him justice. As Saint Sir Bono would put it: it's a beautiful day!

Seth Brundle

Your first link is to google andf the first result is for a page about how he was talking crap (yet again) about the incinerator
"Dublin City Council has disputed Tánaiste Michael McDowell's claim that the plan to build an incinerator at Poolbeg in Dublin has collapsed"
Read through the rest of the links there...
* Johngormley.com
* "McDowell pulls back on Poolbeg promise / Latest News / News ..."

Your second link describes how he made a threat not to go into government over it.

All he was was talk - not action! Show me something he did - not said!

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

The market always clears at a certain price akrasia.
That includes the sale of mortgages which is a product and of course houses.
Once demand is there for both, the sellers adapt.
That means high prices when the market can bear it and lower or stable prices when that fits the bill

Buyers cannot adapt to rising house prices when their income is relatively fixed and affordability is declining due to rising interest rates

Yes markets clear at a certain price, and in terms of owner occupier mortgages, the buyers usually opt for the best house that they can afford given their income at that particular time. They were borrowing at their limit years ago, the only reason prices continued to rise was because of irresponsible lending practises in raising the thresholds and increasing the terms from 30 years to 40 years plus...
The reason prices stopped rising last July, is because interest rates began to increase, and there was very little the banks could do to encourage bigger mortgages (where can you go from a 40 year interest only mortgage?) but this is off topic.

Elmo

A great day for Irish democracy. We have shown the door to a man who basically said what he felt people wanted to hear and didn't listen to what they had to say.

It is a very good to denounce the IRA or for that matter any other organised crime.

However you must tackle that crime.

He turn his back on the C case and rushed through a Ultra-conservative Justice Bill. The republicans (in the USA) are sure to recruit him to find out how he push through the the removial of the right to scilence and still made it look like he was a liberially minded Politican.

Wasted money on the prison system, with a total disregard for the people in that system.

This man couldn't give two ****s about Ireland. It is a great day for Irish politics. A great day for real Liberalism.

bill_ashmount

Best of luck Michael. You were one of the very few politicians I ever respected. I honestly think the country needs more people like you, no matter what anyone says.

dudara

I personally didn't like him, his politics and his lack of balls when it came to dealing with Bertie, and therefore didn't vote for him (I live in Dublin South East).

However, the man is undoubtedly intelligent (ex Attorney General), a very good debater and firm in his views. To lose anyone like that from politics is a pity.

Marksie

dudara wrote:

I personally didn't like him, his politics and his lack of balls when it came to dealing with Bertie, and therefore didn't vote for him (I live in Dublin South East).
.

I actually think that if Mcdowell had stood frim about Berties bags o cash, it may have helped.

Not that i will cry much over him. In fact i am delighted that his arroganct and self aggrandizing mug has gone.

Yeah, indeed he loved his press conferences, its a pity that he didn't know how to behave in them though. I recall one where he stormed down the street and sent accusations of jospeph goebbels flying all over the place.

My initial reaction was if a justice minister knee jerks a reaction like that its an incredibly bad sign for his competence in that he wouldn't think and issue through. I think i was right in that as well.

Still we had (:-)) Tom Parlon, totally useless TD. All he is remembered for is rushing to buy property for decentralisation and rigging a phone in poll at the local radio station.
His previous slogan for election was "welcome to Parlon country". To whit a local wag said..well you know what he puts in the the "try" then.

Does anyone else suspect that mary Hairnet will be quietly smiling to have survived after McDowell shafted her for the leadership?

Attractive Nun

A great shame for the quality of public discourse. Although I think in recent months he was dragged into (or maybe he did the dragging himself) some quite personal, negative politics, you can't deny that he was one of the few mainstream politicians who wasn't afraid to discuss things that most others would shy away from. I generally liked him, but I guess he was quite a poor 'politician' in that regard, and I do think the party - if they can survive this setback - will fare better without him as leader, although he'll be a loss to their publicity-winning.

He'll won't be missed by everyone, but he will be missed.

LuckyLloyd

The loss of McDowell and Higgins are genuine politcal losses that weaken the strength of democracy in this country. I wouldn't want either of them running the country. But I would always want them involved in the politics of this country. They provide a diversity of opinion and freshen up the national debate. The reason they will not be involved going forward is as a direct result of their refusal to dumb down or hide the rough edges of their opinions from the electorate. They will be missed.

And may I just say (and I voted Sinn Feinn yesterday by the way), some of the comments on this thread are childish and immature. Whether you agree with the opinions of a politician or not, you should respect the sacrifices that they give up to serve you as a public representative. McDowell went to work for the last five years to serve us all. He did things in a fashion that I personally disagreed with - but he certaintly deserves a level of respect for his efforts.

Cool_CM

I wonder if he'll still keep the the official website http://www.michaelmcdowell.ie/
He'll have to make a few adjustments to it first though, pity to see him go, as much as I didn't like him you had to have some form of begrudging respect for him for talking his mind whether he actually thought it through in his head first or not ie. comparing Richard Bruton to Joseph Goebbels amongst other things. Can't wait for the next episode of The Panel though!

Wishbone Ash

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The loss of McDowell and Higgins are genuine politcal losses that weaken the strength of democracy in this country.

The fact that they lost their seats is democracy at work.

LuckyLloyd

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The fact that they lost their seats is democracy at work.

Oh, yes, yes - but their complete loss from Irish politics and the consequent removal of their opinions from the scene would be a loss for Irish democracy.

flogen

copacetic wrote:

agreed, I dislike him as much as the next man, but the likes of him with strong opinions, not afraid to say what he thinks without worrying too much about whether it is popular or not is what we need.

It looks like this attitude has cost him dear, he likely would have been ok if he had played a quieter role as minister.

I don't agree with any of his opinions really but would rather have him in the dail than all the various no name/no opinion backbenchers.

I don't think it was opinions that swayed the voters against him - it was the fact that he never seemed to follow through on them (or he went about solving problems in the wrong way)

I think his negative campaigning and attack on the Greens also cost him to a huge extent and his emphasis on his right-wing credentials in a very liberal constituency was foolish.

Civilian_Target

McDowell stood up to the IRA from the minute he was made Minister for Justice: http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0308/north.html
To be fair, the IRA didn't really have a heavy presence in Dublin South East in the 1990s so I think it's understandable that he may not have had much to say on the subject before then.

Alan's right, the man had spine and was unafraid to take an outspoken stance. For that you have to respect him, and for that he will be missed in politics.

copacetic

flogen wrote:

I don't think it was opinions that swayed the voters against him - it was the fact that he never seemed to follow through on them (or he went about solving problems in the wrong way)

I think his negative campaigning and attack on the Greens also cost him to a huge extent and his emphasis on his right-wing credentials in a very liberal constituency was foolish.

talk about having your cake and eating it!

obviously it isn't black and white, its a combination of a lot of things.

nesf

Wishbone Ash wrote:

The fact that they lost their seats is democracy at work.

I think LuckyLoyd's point was more along the lines of our democracy benefits from having some very disparate voices active in the Dáil. Whether or not it's a good thing for minority parties to be in power, it enriches debate and gives more avenues for people to have their voices heard which is always a good thing imho.

Whether or not you approved of McDowell's or Joe Higgin's politics, opinions or stint in power (in McDowell's case), you should (imho) be able to see why people like them are a good thing to have in the Dáil.


I'm a liberal right wing voter yet I can still see the value and worth in hard left candidates being present in the Dáil for instance.

yayamark

"missed" me whole !

He was an arrogant p***k who didn't do his job, didn't listen to what the people wanted.

He implemented his ideas without consultation with other dail members or public debate.

He will be forever remembered for the farce that is the Garda Reserve that i know is not working and has been a huge non take up from the public. Never mind the figures that he touted the actual uptake has been miminal

He will be remembered for tackling the gardai harder than the criminals.

The only Justice Minister not to satand behind the Gardai

THREE cheers for demoracy, see ya.

gonk

nesf wrote:

Whether or not you approved of McDowell's or Joe Higgin's politics, opinions or stint in power (in McDowell's case), you should (imho) be able to see why people like them are a good thing to have in the Dáil.

I don't see this in respect of McDowell at all. He is a despicable, loathsome egomaniac.

I didn't agree much with the late CJ Haughey, but his assessment of McDowell as the nastiest piece of work ever to be elected to the Dáil was 100% spot on.

To take one simple example, his leaking of the Garda intellgence file on my ex-colleague Frank Connolly to his pet journalist Sam Smyth was a breathtakingly cynical abuse of office which resulted in Frank losing his livelihood. It was made all the more egregious by the fact that he was simultaneously making it an offence for individual Gardaí to similarly leak official information.

Aedh Baclamh

Most laughable post so far is the one that said McDowell was FIRED. You do realise that he actually resigned, yes?

Good.

nesf

gonk wrote:

I don't see this in respect of McDowell at all. He is a despciable, loathsome egomaniac.

I didn't agree much with the late CJ Haughey, but his assessment of McDowell as the nastiest piece of work ever to be elected to the Dáil was 100% spot on.

To take one simple example, his leaking of the Garda intellgence file on my ex-colleague Frank Connolly to his pet journalist Sam Smyth was a breathtakingly cynical abuse of office which resulted in Frank losing his livelihood. It was made all the more egregious by the fact that he was simultaneously making it an offence for individual Gardaí to similarly leak official information.

I didn't say that you should respect his character or him as a Minister of Justice, only that you should be able to see the value in voices like his in the Dáil in general. I'm not arguing that he was a good Minister for Justice, a good leader of the PDs or anything like that.

flogen

copacetic wrote:

talk about having your cake and eating it!

obviously it isn't black and white, its a combination of a lot of things.

I agree, it's a combination of things, but not sure what you mean by having my cake and eating it.

You made the point that his opinions (on policy) were unpopular. I made the suggestion that perhaps it wasn't his opinions that caused the problem, it was his failure to act on them in a positive manner (which stemmed from a mixture of being egotistical and keen to attract attention by talking tougher than he could deliver, a number of poorly executed policy decisions and the limitation that comes naturally from being a minority in Government).

gonk

nesf wrote:

I didn't say that you should respect his character or him as a Minister of Justice, only that you should be able to see the value in voices like his in the Dáil in general. I'm not arguing that he was a good Minister for Justice, a good leader of the PDs or anything like that.

I don't agree. He was only eligible for appointment as minister by virtue of his membership of the Oireachtas. If the price of having voices like McDowell's in the Dáil is that we get him as minister for justice too, it's not worth paying.

When he was first appointed, I thought it a good thing, because even though his economic and social views are way to the right of mine, I expected he would be libertarian on the question of individual civil liberties.

In fact, his ministry has been a disaster for Irish civil rights, with such things as curtailment of bail and the right to silence, routine monitoring of every citizen's phone call data, the racist referendum on citizenship, etc, etc.

Elmo

Sorry I respect anyone who goes up for election. Including him, and IMO thats very hard to say.

I beleive that the PD's lost 6 seats due to his leadership of the party.

As a small party the PD's should not have started a negative campaign againist people from whom they could get transfers.

I think the attack on the Greens was a very bad decision made by the party. The Greens where the only party to state that they where willing to do business with FF/PD and with the PD's having such a realiance on FF they needed the support of some friendly Greens.

The lesson to be learned from this election is that if you are in a small party you do not set out to spread lies about parties from which you can rely on to get transfers from.

Liz O'Donnell showed how uninterest she is in politics, I beleive her continual rolling of her eyes up to heaven during Q&A caused her ultimate downfall. A very bad preformance.

nesf

gonk wrote:

I don't agree. He was only eligible for appointment as minister by virtue of his membership of the Oireachtas. If the price of having voices like McDowell's in the Dáil is that we get him as minister for justice too, it's not worth paying.

When he was first appointed, I thought it a good thing, because even though his economic and social views are way to the right of mine, I expected he would be libertarian on the question of individual civil liberties.

In fact, his ministry has been a disaster for Irish civil rights, with such things as curtailment of bail and the right to silence, routine monitoring of every citizen's phone call data, the racist referendum on citizenship, etc, etc.

We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.

Time Magazine

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

Most laughable post so far is the one that said McDowell was FIRED. You do realise that he actually resigned, yes?

He was dismissed from his seat by the electorate of Dublin South-East. Deputy Gormley was returned with more than 300 votes more than McDowell. He may have said he resigned, but only after he was given his week's notice.

Elmo

He may have said he resigned, but only after he was given his week's notice.

Isn't he still Tainiste and the Minister for JELR??????