Michael McDowell Retires from public life

Wishbone Ash

Ibid wrote:

He was dismissed from his seat by the electorate of Dublin South-East

No, his contract was up and the good people of DSE decided not to renew it.

Aedh Baclamh

Yes, you're right, he resigned.

copacetic

flogen wrote:

I agree, it's a combination of things, but not sure what you mean by having my cake and eating it.

You made the point that his opinions (on policy) were unpopular. I made the suggestion that perhaps it wasn't his opinions that caused the problem, it was his failure to act on them in a positive manner (which stemmed from a mixture of being egotistical and keen to attract attention by talking tougher than he could deliver, a number of poorly executed policy decisions and the limitation that comes naturally from being a minority in Government).

I never mentioned policy, thats your emphasis and brackets which is a bit off tbh.

I said his various strongly held and spoken opinions went against him, you disagreed and then agreed in the same post, hence having your cake and eating it.

hullaballoo

gonk wrote:

In fact, his ministry has been a disaster for Irish civil rights, with such things as curtailment of bail and the right to silence, routine monitoring of every citizen's phone call data, the racist referendum on citizenship, etc, etc.

Whilst that's not entirely incorrect - McDowell did tighten up on civil liberties - he did so at the behest of the opposition parties. Fine Gael even used "tougher sentences for criminals" and making bail harder. Here's something from their manifesto:

Fine Gael manifesto wrote:

2. Make our communities safer by focusing on victims' rights and making life a lot tougher for criminals. That means:
- 2,000 more Gardaí on our streets.
- Consistent sentences from judges.
- Bail harder to get and electronic tagging if needed.
- No prison remission without earning it.
- Best practice policing - when and where they're needed.
- New rights for victims

Now, anyone looking objectively at the legal system will be able to see that there are a number of issues here.

1. Where is this magical number of Gardaí going to come from? Who's going to pay for them? What difference will 2,000 more gardaí make while the problems within the organisation remain?
2. Sentences only appear inconsistent because people see "murder" and think "life sentence" without taking into account the extenuating circumstances such as BWS etc.
3. Electronic tagging is far more invasive than any civil liberty restriction I've ever heard. Bail is an interim measure to free up garda stations and prisons pending trial, and has never been raised as a serious issue in a common law jurisdiction before.
4. I don't think there is any prison remission without earning it. People who cause trouble in prisons don't get released early.
5. This is the only point I can't disagree with. But that's partially because it's so vague. How do we know when and where police are going to be needed short of some Minority Report-esque information system.
6. I just don't understand where victims rights are infringed outside of the initial criminal offence. In fact, there are plenty of support services available for victims. The trouble is getting victims to use them.

That's the alternative. At least Mr McDowell had some experience in the law, being a barrister. You really need someone who is close to the justice system to be able to properly run that ministry. I don't know of anyone better suited to it than McDowell.

Civilian_Target

gonk wrote:

To take one simple example, his leaking of the Garda intellgence file on my ex-colleague Frank Connolly to his pet journalist Sam Smyth was a breathtakingly cynical abuse of office which resulted in Frank losing his livelihood. It was made all the more egregious by the fact that he was simultaneously making it an offence for individual Gardaí to similarly leak official information.

Is there any proof to back that claim up?

gonk

Civilian_Target wrote:

Is there any proof to back that claim up?

"McDowell says he gave papers to Independent"
RTÉ News, Monday, 12 December 2005

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1212/connollyf.html

RichardB2

Quotation lifted from scrolling banner on
www.MichaelMcDowell.ie

"Don't wash your hands of the democratic process
and leave the field entirely to others
if you aren't willing to accept the outcome.
Politics do matter."

Hard to say much to that!!!

nesf

hullaball&#250 wrote:

That's the alternative. At least Mr McDowell had some experience in the law, being a barrister. You really need someone who is close to the justice system to be able to properly run that ministry. I don't know of anyone better suited to it than McDowell.

O'Dea?

Elmo

Yes, you're right, he resigned.

SO HAS HE RESIGNED AS TAINISTE AND MINISTER FOR JELR?

OR

DOES HE STILL HOLD THE POST UNTIL A NEW MINISTER IS SELECTED?

Whilst that's not entirely incorrect - McDowell did tighten up on civil liberties - he did so at the behest of the opposition parties.

He wasn't a very strong minister if he had to take orders from the opposition.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Oh, yes, yes - but their complete loss from Irish politics and the consequent removal of their opinions from the scene would be a loss for Irish democracy.

i think choice might be a better choice of word tbh. i also agree with

luckylloyd wrote:

some of the comments on this thread are childish and immature. Whether you agree with the opinions of a politician or not, you should respect the sacrifices that they give up to serve you as a public representative.

this is a good point. nobody is perfect and whilst some revolutionary ideas may seem absurd, we`d never change anything without them. it fuels debate and helps to create change. Not every decision is going to be correct, but i think flaming people for isolated mistakes is unhelpful.

Goodluck2me

yayamark wrote:

He was an arrogant p***k who didn't do his job, didn't listen to what the people wanted.

He implemented his ideas without consultation with other dail members or public debate.

WTF?? how is this useful. what do you base this on? i am not a supporter of the man per se but this is totally absurd. how could you possibly know this?are you a dail member?

Elmo

this is a good point. nobody is perfect and whilst some revolutionary ideas may seem absurd, we`d never change anything without them. it fuels debate and helps to create change. Not every decision is going to be correct, but i think flaming people for isolated mistakes is unhelpful.

His mistakes in DJELR where not small. He was overly conservative in power and IMO regressive. He was unable to effectively deal with issues as the arose. He ignored issues which he himself had already concluded where of a national importance. The C case added to his total disregard for his duty as minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

On the C case he blamed the AG but he had held that position from 1999 - 2002 before taking up the Minstership.

Major issues in the Justice bill go againist his Liberal ideals, no liberal could ever say that the removial of the right to silence is good for civil liberities.

He leaked information to the Sindo about Frank Connolly.

He had the general secratary for his department make a complaint because a memo was leak by a garda, which lead to the arrest of that garda and the jornalist.

The death of a young boy in garda custody still has question remaining as does the arrest of Dean Lyons and the subsequent promotion of gardi leading that case.

He took way to much interest in the media. Continually ringing RTE Radio and writing for the Irish Times.

I mean this man did nothing. So he was a good speaker, so what.

hullaballoo

nesf wrote:

O'Dea?

Would you believe that he's better suited to the position than McDowell?

Elmo wrote:

He wasn't a very strong minister if he had to take orders from the opposition.

He wasn't a very strong minister?

nesf

hullaball&#250 wrote:

Would you believe that he's better suited to the position than McDowell?

No, only that he fulfills the barrister requirement and is a high ranking member of FF.

flogen

copacetic wrote:

I never mentioned policy, thats your emphasis and brackets which is a bit off tbh.

I said his various strongly held and spoken opinions went against him, you disagreed and then agreed in the same post, hence having your cake and eating it.

OK - you said his opinions cost him, I disagree and say it wasn't so much his opinion, but his failure to act on those opinions and do something on the back of them.

In other words, many people may have agreed with the things he said, but got frustrated when he failed to improve the situation from his position of authority.

Elmo

He wasn't a very strong minister?

I made a comment on someone else post who said

Whilst that's not entirely incorrect - McDowell did tighten up on civil liberties - he did so at the behest of the opposition parties.

This suggests that it was the conservative opposition i.e. FG who made hime tighten up on civil liberites. Surely if he beleived in his liberal agenda he would have not listened to such a convservative oposition.

I don't beleieve he wasn't a strong Minister. He was a strong conservative Minister.

Can anyone point out a Liberal agenda which he passed through the houses of the oirtechtas?

Civilian_Target

gonk wrote:

"McDowell says he gave papers to Independent"
RTÉ News, Monday, 12 December 2005

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1212/connollyf.html

Intereference with the course of justice by the minister. Didn't know that...

hullaballoo

Elmo wrote:

I made a comment on someone else post who said

I know yeah, it was my post.

This suggests that it was the conservative opposition i.e. FG who made hime tighten up on civil liberites. Surely if he beleived in his liberal agenda he would have not listened to such a convservative oposition.

It's the government's job to listen to the opposition - they too represent the will of the people, albeit a minority. Such is the nature of popular democracy.

I don't beleieve he wasn't a strong Minister. He was a strong conservative Minister.

Can anyone point out a Liberal agenda which he passed through the houses of the oirtechtas?

Oh right. So liberal = good, and conservative = bad?

DadaKopf

Hullaball&#250 wrote:

That's the alternative. At least Mr McDowell had some experience in the law, being a barrister. You really need someone who is close to the justice system to be able to properly run that ministry. I don't know of anyone better suited to it than McDowell.

But McDowell was happy to lie and ignore evidence to make a political point rather than sound policy and legislation.

For example, in his defence of the criminal justice bill, he never once used data to prove a causal link between mandatory sentencing and crime rates. To be fair, neither did any party except Labour who developed a more holistic crime strategy (which the PR whizz kids later downplayed). But he was happy to pass legislation that looked good politically, but was based on no evidence that it reduced crime. On this point even his fellow barristers were against him.

And don't forget how terrible his reign was for immigrants and especially asylum seekers. He presided over a system which has left many, many people vulnerable to exploitation, not to mention the psychological damage caused by the creaking immigration office.

DeVore

He threatened my livelihood and that of thousands in the poker industry because he couldnt or wouldnt differentiate between it and gambling. Ironic then that there has never been a problem with bookies offices either eh?

I am so glad not only for the poker industry, but for Ireland that a person of his limited understanding of rights and freedoms is gone from an office as powerful as Justice.

Good riddance.

DeV.

lucernarian

I think that Michael McDowell used the somewhat good name, that I do believe existed, of the PDs to push a more personal agenda. He was a man who listened to politics more than policy. I think that Mary Harney is of a higher calibre in this regard.

He was a good speaker, but as someone referred to, so what? It takes much more than that to be a good Justice Minister. His Law Reform agenda was a bit selective, focusing on the most controversial aspects of criminal law, rather than reforming the Gardaí and giving the civil staff needed to free up manpower. Surely the man didn't need open gang warfare and the Morris Tribunal to see that the Gardaí needed an ombudsman? He took up the issue when the damage was done.

I think he liked soundbites too much. "The last sting of a dying wasp" for example. It didn't count for much in the end.

hullaballoo

DadaKopf wrote:

But McDowell was happy to lie and ignore evidence to make a political point rather than sound policy and legislation.

For example, in his defence of the criminal justice bill, he never once used data to prove a causal link between mandatory sentencing and crime rates. To be fair, neither did any party except Labour who developed a more holistic crime strategy (which the PR whizz kids later downplayed). But he was happy to pass legislation that looked good politically, but was based on no evidence that it reduced crime. On this point even his fellow barristers were against him.

And don't forget how terrible his reign was for immigrants and especially asylum seekers. He presided over a system which has left many, many people vulnerable to exploitation, not to mention the psychological damage caused by the creaking immigration office.

I wouldn't extend my views as far as to say that McDowell was infallible in his term of office. And I disagree wholeheartedly with the Criminal Justice Bill, but I don't think it's constitutionality can be upheld (either under B na hÉ, or the ECHR).

My point is that the alternatives aren't any better. However, since the nature of politics is that you have to do 12 things right for every one thing you do wrong, McDowell was about 20 right things short by the time the election came around.

Fingers crossed that he gets appointed to the bench soon. He might be able to make more sense of things from there.

silvine

Politcs has lost one of its most fascinating and intelligent if arrogant and repugnant characters. The Dail will be a duller place without him.

That aside, I doubt we have heard the last of the 'Mad Mullah' as some posters above alude to.

Elmo

Oh right. So liberal = good, and conservative = bad?

No that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that Minister McDowel was according to himself (and his party) was a Liberal Leader. The PD's are a liberal party socially and economically. However during his time in office in Justice he was Conservative.

If he wants to brand himself as a conservative that's alright, but he isn't a liberal.

It's the government's job to listen to the opposition - they too represent the will of the people, albeit a minority. Such is the nature of popular democracy.

AFAIK the PDs are far more in the minority then FG. But then that is the nature of Irish Democracy.

That aside, I doubt we have heard the last of the 'Mad Mullah' as some posters above alude to.

True he still has Today with Pat Kenny and The Irish Times

DeVore

Colourful characters belong in the back benches or on the Monster Raving Loony Party roster.


Not in charge of the justice system.

DeV.

ps: I have heard this idea that McD was liberal from a few people?! Are you folks smoking something?? We have not had a Minister of Justice so *casual* about curbing people's rights, ever. He is/was an unstable extremist, incapable of finding the middle ground.

keano_afc

He's the single biggest reason for the collapse of the PD vote. The very public overthrow of Harney lost him many voters I'd say. I voted PD in 2002 but swore not too after he became leader.

latenia

One of the few people in the Dail who actually took a paycut to be there.

The press have always had it in for him and the public are always willing to become part of the braying mob of uninformed drones they seek to create. It sells papers to create the image of Dublin as more dangerous than Mogadishu when in fact the city centre is a lot safer than it was 10 years ago.

Much of the public animosity towards him stemmed from situations beyond his control. Take the statutory rape furore last year. What exactly could he do there that wouldn't end in criticism? People aren't interested in the details; they just want their boo-boy to complain about to Joe Duffy.

Rapist set free by a judge?
McDowell's fault

Coked-up scumbag in Blanchardstown shoots some other scumbag?
McDowell's fault

Too many black faces in my area for my liking?
That's McDowell's fault too

Devore's comment is typical. Completely ignore the fact that proper legislation of casinos is neccesary in any civilised country while demanding that his minority interest be catered to in full. When you don't get exactly what you wanted the person responsible is called a Nazi.

I'm not a PD supporter and I agree that some of McDowell's personality traits are off-putting. My problem is the lack of genuine political and social enquiry amongst the public.

ateam

Will Harney become leader of the party now? Will it merge with Fianna Fail?

Has Harney given her reaction yet?

hullaballoo

ateam wrote:

Will Harney become leader of the party now? Will it merge with Fianna Fail?

Has Harney given her reaction yet?

Harney said yesterday that she wouldn't, but it looks like she's going to have to.

Whether or not they merge with FF is probably going to be based on whether Harney and Grealish get into government. If they do, they'll have the funds to keep the party alive. If they, don't, the party will probably be dissolved.

Thereagain, I'm not privy to whatever other sources of finance the party might have.

MisterAnarchy

latenia wrote:

One of the few people in the Dail who actually took a paycut to be there.

The press have always had it in for him and the public are always willing to become part of the braying mob of uninformed drones they seek to create. It sells papers to create the image of Dublin as more dangerous than Mogadishu when in fact the city centre is a lot safer than it was 10 years ago.

Much of the public animosity towards him stemmed from situations beyond his control. Take the statutory rape furore last year. What exactly could he do there that wouldn't end in criticism? People aren't interested in the details; they just want their boo-boy to complain about to Joe Duffy.

Rapist set free by a judge?
McDowell's fault

Coked-up scumbag in Blanchardstown shoots some other scumbag?
McDowell's fault

Too many black faces in my area for my liking?
That's McDowell's fault too

Devore's comment is typical. Completely ignore the fact that proper legislation of casinos is neccesary in any civilised country while demanding that his minority interest be catered to in full. When you don't get exactly what you wanted the person responsible is called a Nazi.

I'm not a PD supporter and I agree that some of McDowell's personality traits are off-putting. My problem is the lack of genuine political and social enquiry amongst the public.

Well said,excellent post.