Michael McDowell Retires from public life

alanceltic

yayamark wrote:

"missed" me whole !

He was an arrogant p***k who didn't do his job, didn't listen to what the people wanted.

He implemented his ideas without consultation with other dail members or public debate.

He will be forever remembered for the farce that is the Garda Reserve that i know is not working and has been a huge non take up from the public. Never mind the figures that he touted the actual uptake has been miminal

He will be remembered for tackling the gardai harder than the criminals.

The only Justice Minister not to satand behind the Gardai

THREE cheers for demoracy, see ya.

Sounds like a bitter member of an Gardai here..... mabey u had a problem with the minister attempting to put in situ a Garda Ombudsman, but then again the minister is responsible for the best interests of the electorate, the public, not a cosy little click. Just because he was the acting minister for justice does not confer that he MUST treat an Gardai Siochana with kid gloves.......Garda reform is what was/is needed and if that upsets a few members of the Gardai then i say tough!!!

alanceltic

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The loss of McDowell and Higgins are genuine politcal losses that weaken the strength of democracy in this country. I wouldn't want either of them running the country. But I would always want them involved in the politics of this country. They provide a diversity of opinion and freshen up the national debate. The reason they will not be involved going forward is as a direct result of their refusal to dumb down or hide the rough edges of their opinions from the electorate. They will be missed.

And may I just say (and I voted Sinn Feinn yesterday by the way), some of the comments on this thread are childish and immature. Whether you agree with the opinions of a politician or not, you should respect the sacrifices that they give up to serve you as a public representative. McDowell went to work for the last five years to serve us all. He did things in a fashion that I personally disagreed with - but he certaintly deserves a level of respect for his efforts.

Have to say that this is a very fair synopsis of the rothweiler, there are too many politicians who wouldnt get a job in the real world, here was one who gave up a hugh salary as a barrister to serve the people (although I admit did have some errors of judgement). Willie O Dea for Justice in my opinion, i mean how could you NOT take him seriously with a ronnie that would give grouch marx a run for his money.... Mc Dowell to start a PR company in 2008 lolololol

irish_bob

senator john minihan from cork put it best , ireland is not ready for somene like michael mc dowell , he was too out spoken , too straight , not enough of a lick ass and too idealogical for us

in this country we need our politicans to be cuddily , but as tom parlon said mcdowell never courted popularity

i have to laugh when i hear the ludicrious statements like mcdowell accused the IRA of engaging in criminality yet never produced evidence
abit like saying someone was wrong to accuse oj simpsons of having murdered his wife as thier is no evidence , perhaps but everyone knows its true
one would think the ira were some kind of humanitarian charity group who would never be seen near anything resembling diesel smuggling
thomas (slab) murphy is another john o shea of goal you know

he was right to take a hardline with the guards , thier a institution who are extremely hostile to criticism and review of any kind , plus thier hypocrosy over the reserve lost them a lot of respect with me
they were crying about being under staffed week in week out yet fought tooth and nail against the reserve , surely a reservist would be perfect for answering phones in garda stations , stamping passport applications , signaling traffic on a busy friday or dealing with crowds at music festivals or sporting events , thier a great idea if you ask me


i do agree that mc dowell becoming leader of the pd,s was a bad pr move for the party , likability is crucial in the shallow superficial world of politics nowadays
i believe he was a misunderstood man , the public took his intelectual nature to be arrogance , this is understandable when you compare him to our leader
he was a million miles away from the kind of quintesential parish pump cute hoor style fianna fail politician

he also made a pigs ear out of the bertiegate issue , he tried to slay a sacred cow , he threatend berties possition and as shown in this election , bertie aherne is a sacred cow in this country and the irish people will punish anyone who tries to show him in a bad light , its a bit silly but the way it is

by doing this he annoyed fianna fail voters who have always idolised thier leaders and lost out on transfers which due to the fact that fianna fail done so well , would probably have returned most pd seats

by marching his army up the hill over berties finances twice , he also lost the respect of those who saw the pd,s as there to watch over fianna fail

so he has been a poor leader of his party overall
he once said himself that the pd,s must be radical or redundant and seeing that he was thier biggest idealogue ( harney being thee other one ) thier future seems to rely on what mary harney decides to do next

while the pd,s future seems very bleak , i believe on paper thier is a demand for a libertarian party , thier are many young people out there who like making money with thier own money in the private sector yet are liberal on social issues and dont care what the church thinks

thee only thins is , in ireland were are unbelievably traditional when it comes to voting , the vast majority of us vote for whoever our parents and grandparents voted for and as a result the pd,s are at a disadvantage
thier too young to have tradition , no one who has just become voting age has parents and grandparents who are life long pd voters

oh yeah i forgot to mention , while sinn fein had a terrible day yesterday
i believe they would overlook it all just for the fact that mc dowell is gone

lennox1

alanceltic wrote:

Sounds like a bitter member of an Gardai here..... mabey u had a problem with the minister attempting to put in situ a Garda Ombudsman, but then again the minister is responsible for the best interests of the electorate, the public, not a cosy little click. Just because he was the acting minister for justice does not confer that he MUST treat an Gardai Siochana with kid gloves.......Garda reform is what was/is needed and if that upsets a few members of the Gardai then i say tough!!!

McDowell thought that Gardai were there for his personal kickabout.What he forgot was that most Gardai have no problem with reform or the ombudsman but bitter experience has taught them to be very wary when dealing with politicians.Trial of the Gardai by television in the Abbeylara incident for example,where the politicians wanted to be lauded as Jim Mitchell was in the D.I.R.T ENQUIRY.The rights of the Gardai were of no importance to McDowell,or to the politicians involved.
As for his ordering the Gardai to' stay out of politics' they and their families still had the right to vote and that comment got families very angry and they voted against him.

I disliked his politics. I disliked him as a person.

But there is no escaping Irish politics will be at a loss without him. He was a not a populist like the majority in the Dail he had convictions and was very outspoken about them.
He had the ability to make unpopular decisions that he percieved were right.

irish_bob

McDowell thought that Gardai were there for his personal kickabout.What he forgot was that most Gardai have no problem with reform or the ombudsman but bitter experience has taught them to be very wary when dealing with politicians.Trial of the Gardai by television in the Abbeylara incident for example,where the politicians wanted to be lauded as Jim Mitchell was in the D.I.R.T ENQUIRY.The rights of the Gardai were of no importance to McDowell,or to the politicians involved.
As for his ordering the Gardai to' stay out of politics' they and their families still had the right to vote and that comment got families very angry and they voted against him.


most garda have no problem with reform
your having a laugh right , the gardai have fought tooth and nail against internal investigation , against the afforementioned garda reserves

DublinWriter

As people here often say, play the ball not the man.

You really need to separate the personality from the politics when assessing someone like McDowell.

What exactly was McDowell's legacy? Just examine the politics and you'll find someone who seemed to spend a disproportionate about of his time worrying the garda bone.

Bear in mind that the full title of his department was The Department of Justice, Equity and Law Reform, yet you'd swear he thought himself to be the Minister for Law Enforcement

Plenty of areas of the law were, and still are, in need of serious reform. Gambling and the licensing laws relating to the sale of alcohol being just two.

I have plenty of friends and family in the guards and all unanimously supported the establishment of the office of the Garda Ombudsman. It meant that for the first time guards would not be investigating themselves and could not be accused of acting in their own interest.

However, the Garda Reserve is a time bomb in the making. There is a reason guards spend effectively two years in training, and most of it is down to learning criminal law and arrest procedures.

Mark my words - either a Reservist will smack somebody or somebody will smack a Reservist and it will be all down to the High Court for massive legal bills, all paid for by you and me.

The whole scheme was half-baked and has the potential to put the state in enough legal exposure to make the Army Deafness claims look like Bertie’s annual make-up bill.

While McDowell appeared though on criminality, he was quick to collapse under pressure from his senior partners in Government. Remember how he apparently folded on the licensing of cafés to serve alcohol under the lobbying of the Vintner's Federation of Ireland and how he climbed down from the moral high ground over the pre-election investigation over Bertie's finances, only to scramble back up again post election.

However, using famous phrase of Michael Noonan, perhaps McDowell's lasting legacy will be that he 'burst the party’. A clear yawning schism opened up between him and Mary Harney in the past twelve months. Such schisms in large parties can be fractious enough (e.g. Colley and Haughey in the late 60's) but when they happen in small niche parties like the PD's, it basically sounds the death-knell.

Not only did he effectively end his own political career, but he almost single-handedly managed to implode his own party.

As for the man himself, many have lost the plot in terms of throwing him platitudes and political death-wreaths. People tend to forget that McDowell is a highly experienced and well-connected State Council. When, not if, he returns to the bar, he will at least treble the income he was making as a Minister.

For him, the war is over.

daveirl

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yayamark

alanceltic wrote:

Sounds like a bitter member of an Gardai here..... mabey u had a problem with the minister attempting to put in situ a Garda Ombudsman, but then again the minister is responsible for the best interests of the electorate, the public, not a cosy little click. Just because he was the acting minister for justice does not confer that he MUST treat an Gardai Siochana with kid gloves.......Garda reform is what was/is needed and if that upsets a few members of the Gardai then i say tough!!!

If u must know the Gardai have for years been calling for the Ombudsman. An external org that will fairly investigate wrongdoings. The Ombudsman will bring about a lot of good thinfs for the gardai on the st.

The problem the gardai had with mcdowell was that he was not open to discussion on the implemmentation of his ideas.

That is not a demoracy it is a dictatorship
I dont think he had the best interests of the public just his own fascists ideas

yayamark

yayamark wrote:

That is not a demoracy it is a dictatorship
I dont think he had the best interests of the public just his own fascists ideas

Do you suggest he ballot the gaurds for every change he wanted to impliment. Sometimes, especially with the gaurds, changes have to be pushed through or you would get get bogged down.

yayamark

ronoc wrote:

Do you suggest he ballot the gaurds for every change he wanted to impliment. Sometimes, especially with the gaurds, changes have to be pushed through or you would get get bogged down.

that really is no arguement.

so because an org wants to object to something it means that it should be pushed thru

wtf!

wasper

swingking wrote:

that's not a good thing

He was the only guy who stood up to the face of organized crime

He was full of hot air. I hope he has saved some money. Because he has alienated the judges & he will have a torrid time going back to being a lawyer. What a humiliation, I say justice was done..Pun was intended.:))

yayamark

yayamark wrote:

that really is no arguement.

so because an org wants to object to something it means that it should be pushed thru

wtf!

Its not an organisation that should decide how to run itself. The people decide that and they mandate politicians to do that. It is the politicians job to push those changes. So yes if it is the will of the people it should be pushed through.

lennox1

ronoc wrote:

Its not an organisation that should decide how to run itself. The people decide that and they mandate politicians to do that. It is the politicians job to push those changes. So yes if it is the will of the people it should be pushed through.

No one is suggesting the Gardai run themselves.But they have a right,as citizens of this state,to assess,question,debate,argue,and put forward their views just like everyone else.McDowell lost sight of that fact and ridiculed them publicly and privately for doing so.

His arrogance would not let him even consider the fact that maybe he was not always right in his decisions.As far as he was concerned,he was always right. That's a serious flaw in anyones character,and serious mistakes with far reaching consequences can be made by people like that.The people realised that and so he had to go.

williamb

DeVore wrote:

Colourful characters belong in the back benches or on the Monster Raving Loony Party roster.


Not in charge of the justice system.

DeV.

ps: I have heard this idea that McD was liberal from a few people?! Are you folks smoking something?? We have not had a Minister of Justice so *casual* about curbing people's rights, ever. He is/was an unstable extremist, incapable of finding the middle ground.

Absolutely. The PD's in general are a far right party, that's never found much support among the Irish electorate. To be honest, it's a travesty that Ahern went for the easy life and brought them into coalition last time. As an exercise, I once took their first preference percentage at the last election and converted that to what percentage of the government budget they should control. It turns out they should get to choose the civil service stationary supplier.

And McDowell,personally, was the worst Minister for Justice in the history of the state. What he did to Frank Connolly was entirely disgusting, and should have caused his immediate dismissal by any Taoiseach who understood anything about the rule of law and democracy. This is a republic, we don't appoint ministers and let them destroy individuals by whisper and innuendo. If there are serious criminal charges to be laid against someone, we have this thing called a judiciary to deal with them. McDowell, as a barrister, should have been the first to understand this basic concept.

McDowell was about one half as bright as he thought he was, and any intellect he had was entirely obscured by his inability to control his emotions, as demonstrated by the Connolly affair.

He went for gut shots at every opportunity, deserved or not. Good riddance to an atrocious Minister who seriously threatened Irish democracy.

Marcais

williamb wrote:

Absolutely. The PD's in general are a far right party, that's never found much support among the Irish electorate. To be honest, it's a travesty that Ahern went for the easy life and brought them into coalition last time. As an exercise, I once took their first preference percentage at the last election and converted that to what percentage of the government budget they should control. It turns out they should get to choose the civil service stationary supplier.

And McDowell,personally, was the worst Minister for Justice in the history of the state. What he did to Frank Connolly was entirely disgusting, and should have caused his immediate dismissal by any Taoiseach who understood anything about the rule of law and democracy. This is a republic, we don't appoint ministers and let them destroy individuals by whisper and innuendo. If there are serious criminal charges to be laid against someone, we have this thing called a judiciary to deal with them. McDowell, as a barrister, should have been the first to understand this basic concept.

McDowell was about one half as bright as he thought he was, and any intellect he had was entirely obscured by his inability to control his emotions, as demonstrated by the Connolly affair.

He went for gut shots at every opportunity, deserved or not. Good riddance to an atrocious Minister who seriously threatened Irish democracy.

Well said......good riddance to the Left Out

daveirl

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mike65

No question about it. As I said somewhere else 'we're' all capitalists now.

Mike.

irish_bob

williamb Quote:
Originally Posted by DeVore
Colourful characters belong in the back benches or on the Monster Raving Loony Party roster.


Not in charge of the justice system.

DeV.

ps: I have heard this idea that McD was liberal from a few people?! Are you folks smoking something?? We have not had a Minister of Justice so *casual* about curbing people's rights, ever. He is/was an unstable extremist, incapable of finding the middle ground.

Absolutely. The PD's in general are a far right party, that's never found much support among the Irish electorate. To be honest, it's a travesty that Ahern went for the easy life and brought them into coalition last time. As an exercise, I once took their first preference percentage at the last election and converted that to what percentage of the government budget they should control. It turns out they should get to choose the civil service stationary supplier.

And McDowell,personally, was the worst Minister for Justice in the history of the state. What he did to Frank Connolly was entirely disgusting, and should have caused his immediate dismissal by any Taoiseach who understood anything about the rule of law and democracy. This is a republic, we don't appoint ministers and let them destroy individuals by whisper and innuendo. If there are serious criminal charges to be laid against someone, we have this thing called a judiciary to deal with them. McDowell, as a barrister, should have been the first to understand this basic concept.

McDowell was about one half as bright as he thought he was, and any intellect he had was entirely obscured by his inability to control his emotions, as demonstrated by the Connolly affair.

He went for gut shots at every opportunity, deserved or not. Good riddance to an atrocious Minister who seriously threatened Irish democracy.



ive said this many times before , to those who make statements like the pd,s are a far right party , just look abroad for what a real right wing partys
be it the dup in northern ireland or the gop in the usa, those are right wing partys in every sense of the word and make the pd,s and mc dowell look like a bunch of screaming libs
the pd,s are only right wing on economic issues , thier liberal on social issues
and the most important thing to remember is , in ireland most partys are so of the centre , thier a white line in the middle of a road , we the irish are a deeply unidealogical people by and large and we have never gone for either the far left as shown by sinn feins poor showing or the far right , not that weve ever had a far right anyways

its a hysterical claim to make that the pd,s are far right

Covey

Here he is doing the Long Walk at the RDS.

daveirl

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yayamark

lennox1 wrote:

No one is suggesting the Gardai run themselves.But they have a right,as citizens of this state,to assess,question,debate,argue,and put forward their views just like everyone else.McDowell lost sight of that fact and ridiculed them publicly and privately for doing so.

His arrogance would not let him even consider the fact that maybe he was not always right in his decisions.As far as he was concerned,he was always right. That's a serious flaw in anyones character,and serious mistakes with far reaching consequences can be made by people like that.The people realised that and so he had to go.

Thats what i have very badly been tryng to say.

Elmo

And right wing economics, is also called liberal economics so they are simply a liberal party end of story.

I can agree that the PDs where economically liberal, however their is no way that they where liberal socially.

They where a far right party both in terms of economics and in terms of society.

Socially conservative. Economically liberal. Not simply Liberal.

daveirl

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lucernarian

Mary Harney has twice the integrity that Michael McDowell does... She has her convictions but doesn't shout down her opponents either or call them Goebels. McDowell was completely useless as Tánaiste as far as leading is concerned. He couldn't be brought near the North. Imagine him trying to negotiate a delicate peace process??!!

He is a polarising figure in Irish politics and that sort of character would be better sticking to the legal profession where his talents can be used well.

thebman

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Data protection and retention laws or in other words information about people:
http://www.digitalrights.ie/

Our laws are a disgrace in this area especially data retention. Sickening that the government that is supposed to be acting in the peoples interest is at this nonsense.

daveirl

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nesf

daveirl wrote:

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Few reasonable people would disagree that the PDs were liberal when they were created. The thing is that they have become more (in the media/public) eye an economic policy party rather than a social policy party and it's harder to pick out a definite social policy ideology. Versus Labour and Fine Gael who are more clearly liberal and conservative respectively. That combined with being a minor party with FF in Government meant that they never were going to be in a position to push very liberal social ideology in the first place if you want my honest opinion.

mike65

The PDs wanted to rid the constitution of God remember. Thats Liberal in my book.

Mike.

Crash

The PD's as a party would be considered liberal in a numer of ways - their downfall has been the candidates they're run as of late, and having mcDowell as a leader. Essentially, he was too abrasive to court undecided voters towards a party when they may in fact have similar views to the PD's.