Michael McDowell Retires from public life

DeVore

The PD's were formed as part of a snit-fight between Dessie O'Malley and Haughey. They were and have never been anything but a FF clique, just like all the others except they gave themselves a name.

Their downfall was McD who simply rode roughshod over any party principles that didnt fall in line with his own views.

The attempt to close down the card clubs in Ireland was the final straw for me. The difference between liberal and conservative is drawn when you allow people to act as adults equal to those in power.... but no one is equal to McD in his eyes. We all need his wisdom to find redemption. We all need a nanny.

Well it appears, we don't.

DeV.

daveirl

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daveirl

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DeVore

DeVore wrote:

The PD's were formed as part of a snit-fight between Dessie O'Malley and Haughey. They were and have never been anything but a FF clique, just like all the others except they gave themselves a name.

Their downfall was McD who simply rode roughshod over any party principles that didnt fall in line with his own views.

The attempt to close down the card clubs in Ireland was the final straw for me. The difference between liberal and conservative is drawn when you allow people to act as adults equal to those in power.... but no one is equal to McD in his eyes. We all need his wisdom to find redemption. We all need a nanny.

Well it appears, we don't.

DeV.

They have never claimed to be a socially liberal in their stance. McDowells and the parties policies to law reform, crime, immigration drugs was decidedly conservative. This was reflected in the their battle for votes with FG the other conservative party.
Their economic policies are very liberal but that doesn't mean their social policies are.

Elmo

Reason in my book why the PDs are Socially Conservative: -

1. The citizenship referendum
2. The Justice Bill
3. Civil Unions bill which was not passed
4. The scandle that is Irish sex laws which the Minister for JELR ignored and then it was far too late.
5. ASBOs
6. Not tackling the problems im the Prison system
7. Cutting funding from Travelling Community Projects to help them to promote intergration with the settled community.
8. Eased the way for publicans to discriminate againist them.
9. An idea to locate the Central Mental Hospital in Prison grounds.
10. The HSEs robbery of OAPs in their care and subsequent legislation legalising the theft (not passed).

I also find it stunning that the critics of the PDs are people who would have voted for the 'Alliance for Change' an alliance headed by the most conservative party in Irish politics.

I didn't vote for the Alliance for Change. I voted like most people againist the PDs.


LAB/FG asked for a YES vote and brought in divorce
LAB/FF legalised homosexual sex

So how do you explain their formation, i.e. liberalising contraception, how do you explain conservatives throwing a copy of the consitution at McDowell over his stance of civil union. Removing the death penalty and the removal of sucide as a criminal offence were some of the first policies they implemented. They campaigned for divorce in the 1986 referendum.

FG asked for a YES vote in the 1986 divorce ref

Contraception was legalised in 1978 by CJ Haughey to anyone over the age of 18 with a precription, and in 1980 it became law. In 1985 futher law allowed the sale of condoms without precription (FG where in office).

He did not have a stance on Civil Union as far as I could see he was always backing away from any such legislation.

The Death Penalty was rarely used, and was an add on to the Nice Treaty Ref. europe asked for it and since most people even conservatives are againist the Death Penalty it wasn't hard won.

Sucide was removed in 1993.

daveirl

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Aedh Baclamh

LAB/FF legalised homosexual sex? Heh. Was that in the early 90s, like 1993?

I'd like to see the death penalty brought back at some stage in the future. I do think it will be brought back but it won't be for a while yet unfortunately.

irish_bob

this is regards the various comments that reffered to fine gael as being the most conservative party in the land , perhaps they are but as i mentioned before the irish political landscape like the irish people are so of the centre by and large , their a white line in the middle of the road
fine gael are by and large a centrist party , name one person in fine gael you could compare to peter robinson of the dup or anyone within the dup
name one person in fine gael you could compare to anyone within the republican party in the usa

the centre is indeed a very croweded place in ireland , oh and as regards those who say the pd,s are not socially liberal

as regards the citizenship referendum , let me tell you as someone who lives in rural ireland among middle irelanders , that referendum was extremely wanted by the folks and as shown in the poll, was overwhelmingly aprooved
if mc dowell had not brought it in , someone else would have , the people wanted it , im not saying i voted in favour of it but those champagne socilist irish times readers need to acknowledge sometimes that a lot of irish people are very conservative in thier outlook on immigration

the pd,s are much more socially liberal than either FF or FG , after the ferns report 18 months ago , liz o donell made a speech in which she said that goverment needs to keep its distance from clongowes meaning the church bashcially , bertie in order to keep middle ireland practicing catholic voters on side immiedietly refuted theese comments

the pd,s are a libertarian party who because the single figure of micheal mc dowell had what many percieved to be an authoritarian demeanour became a party who grew to be seen as a very right wing party

E92

Wishbone Ash wrote:

...but Liz still looking good.

How does she keep looking so good. The Dáils sexiest TD now gone. All the harder to belive that she's almost 51, yes almost 51 years of age.(She'll be 51 on July 1)
Dont worry we have Lucinda Creighton in her place:D

copacetic

E92 wrote:

How does she keep looking so good. The Dáils sexiest TD now gone. All the harder to belive that she's almost 51, yes almost 51 years of age.(She'll be 51 on July 1)

personally i reckon those posters that made her look like a mad woman crippled her vote.

ateam

E92 wrote:

How does she keep looking so good. The Dáils sexiest TD now gone. All the harder to belive that she's almost 51, yes almost 51 years of age.(She'll be 51 on July 1)
Dont worry we have Lucinda Creighton in her place:D

I heard on one of the election programmes that O'Donnell is a poor constituent politician. Is this true?

bleg

It's a shame to see McDowell go, like him or loathe him he was always good for an argument and Irish politics is going to be a much more boring place without him. He kept after the Provos when everybody else was willing to give them a get into government free card in the North.

The country will not be served better by another anonymous (but better looking) face in the FG backbenches.

Chakar

Michael McDowell was undoubtedly an industrious Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has left an legacy of legislative and institutional reforms. He was instrumental in clamping down on the criminal activities of the IRA and Sinn Fein insisting that an end to criminality and decommissioning of firearms must be part of any development in the peace process. McDowell has exposed Sinn Fein and the IRA's activities throughout his tenure as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform contributing to their eventual decline. I wish him the best of luck in his career as a senior counsel.

Voipjunkie

irish_bob wrote:

name one person in fine gael you could compare to anyone within the republican party in the usa y

Deasy he worked for them

And Flanagan is not far behind him

flogen

daveirl wrote:

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I actually agreed with the idea of Café bars - I certainly felt they were worth a shot as an attempt to re-boot Ireland's attitude to drink (although I wasn't naive enough to think it would solve much).

One thing I noticed about a lot of the socially liberal policies that have been brought forward in their defence here is their use of the past-tense. Their most (socially) liberal ideals seem to have existed in the 1980s and early 90s, but only Cafe Bars seem to apply to the recent past.

I think they stopped being a socially liberal party some time ago, and that was solidified under McDowell who himself encouraged their perception as being a right-wing party (which I thought was a mistake).

One note I'd make is that the party seemed to have a very illiberal stance on abortion - at least under Harney. They're not alone in that (as has been discussed elsewhere) but they seemed keen not to give people the opportunity to make an open choice on the constitutional status of it.

As for civil unions, I'm not sure what McDowell said about them, but he did sweet FA.

And what exactly did O'Donnell do/say in relation to the Catholic Church?

cast_iron

Chakar wrote:

Michael McDowell was undoubtedly an industrious Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He has left an legacy of legislative and institutional reforms. He was instrumental in clamping down on the criminal activities of the IRA and Sinn Fein insisting that an end to criminality and decommissioning of firearms must be part of any development in the peace process. McDowell has exposed Sinn Fein and the IRA's activities throughout his tenure as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform contributing to their eventual decline. I wish him the best of luck in his career as a senior counsel.

My sentiments exactly.
Though not sure if he'll go back to the bar.

gonk

Chakar wrote:

Michael McDowell was undoubtedly an industrious Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

"Hyperactive" is, I think, a more appropriate adjective there.

Chakar wrote:

He has left an legacy of legislative and institutional reforms.

A legacy of encroachments on the civil rights of citizens . . .

Chakar wrote:

He was instrumental in clamping down on the criminal activities of the IRA and Sinn Fein.

Oh, is that what he was doing when he leaked the file on Frank Connolly to the Indo? There was me thinking he was just trying to stymie Frank's investigation into the huge overpayment by millions of Euros for Thornton Hall.

Chakar wrote:

I wish him the best of luck in his career as a senior counsel.

I wish I never see or hear of him again. He thoroughly deserved the public humiliation he got outside the count centre on Friday. He was without a doubt the worst ever Minister for Justice and a disgrace to the office he held.

daveirl

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flogen

daveirl wrote:

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Ah right.
Fair play to her for saying what needed to be said but it's hard to call someone liberal for taking criticism to the Catholic Church in light of the Ferns Report. She wasn't doing or saying anything that anyone else, left or right, shouldn't have been saying - and I wouldn't call it automatically liberal to call for a separation of church and state as secularism is independent of this (e.g. Weren't the US Republicans secularists until the 1980s?)

So what did the PDs do to remove the special relationship after these comments? Or was it just a rowdy backbencher speaking before her turn?

daveirl

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flogen

daveirl wrote:

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Fair enough - I just think their socially liberal side died off a good few years ago - I think they did turn into a conservative party in the last year too (what liberal or pseudo-liberal party would have a slogan saying "left-wing Government? No Thanks!"?). McDowell pushed the party towards his own personal ideals and while I think they were in trouble anyway, he put the nail in the coffin.

strassenwolf

The economic downturn is helping to amplify what a poor decision the whole Thornton Hall thing was.

The state seems to have forked out well over the odds for the land. Quite possibly well over the odds at the time, but certainly well over what would be required to purchase the land now.

At the same time, the aim was to cash in on the value of the land at Mountjoy and the Central Mental Hospital.

It's hard to imagine that there are going to be too many takers for those projects in the next few years.

Nice one Michael.

Jonathan

I had forgotten about this thread till it came up in my usercp