Greens only appeal to city dwellers

nesf

Gael wrote:

This thread is interesting, since the Greens still seem in position to win their first seat in a primarily rural constituency, via Mary White. And lest you doubt it, you should know that Mary lives up a mountain, not in a town.

Pfft, Carlow is still within the Pale.

Villain

LOL now now nesf just because the Dubs are trying to take us over doesn't make us any less rural

Gael

Mary White, deputy leader of the Green Party has been elected in Carlow-Kilkenny. First Green TD in a primarily rural constitutuency.

nesf

Gael wrote:

Mary White, deputy leader of the Green Party has been elected in Carlow-Kilkenny. First Green TD in a primarily rural constitutuency.

That's a big achievement for the party though I'm sorry to see Boyle go in Cork. I think they lost a potentially good minister there.

johnnyskeleton

I suppose it does make sense that people in rural areas already have a pretty good environment and so don't really want to vote for it.

What I wonder about though is why they don't step up their campaign in a rural setting. A few examples would be public transport from villages to town centres (for that matter, busses from small towns to big towns/cities other than Dublin would be good too), grants for greener farming methods, improved recycling campeigns, investment in windfarms, etc. It is also a green party policy to favour small to medium business over larger multinational corporations, and I think this would have good local appeal in towns where, for example, the main source of employment was a factory that has now closed down.

I think they have the potential to make a killing in rural areas, but I'm not sure that they're even bothering.

lucernarian

I actually never saw Dan Boyle in my life before, until his defeat speech on RTE yesterday. He didn't have the usual political charisma and charm but he did seem competent, and the green party member in the RTÉ studio seemed genuinely sorry to see his defeat, on a personal as well as political level.

Mary White did well to be elected. It's mainly a success for the people of Carlow, who have managed to retain their FF TD, and also bring in a local Green.

The greens can have more electoral success in the future if they campaign for the local issues properly. They already have a larger-than-life national presence.

galactus

McSpud wrote:

I think the transport policies of the Greens stopped in the burbs.

Have you ever heard of a choo-choo train?

irish_bob

a few of the posts in here have been accused of pandering to stereotype

perhaps but every stereotype has an element of truth
its true to a degree that many middle class types who pay top dollar for organic food do so because its a trendy thing to do , its also been suggested that if the middle class vote green , how come the greens are left wing
surely you know that thier are elements within the middle class , champange socilists who like to seperate themselves from something as vulgar as capatilism and the green vote also works as a form of middle class liberal guit therapy , i read once that the upper middle calls in dublin vote pd but the upper middle class with a guilty conscience vote green

as regards the person who asked why the greens are not so popular in rural ireland
the reason is very simple , agriculture , while the numbers of full time farmers in ireland are diminishing , agriculture is still by far the biggest economic conributor in rural ireland , and this is expressed not just inside the farm gate
their is a whole servicie economy in rural ireland all centred around farming

the green partys policys were they to be implemented full would bankrupt irish agriculture , i will not elaborate on thiat statment as i doubt that many in here are familiar with terms like live export or nitrates directive

i myself was born on a farm and still know many farmers , the green party are to farmers what kryptonite was to superman

Gael

irish_bob wrote:

the green partys policys were they to be implemented full would bankrupt irish agriculture , i will not elaborate on thiat statment as i doubt that many in here are familiar with terms like live export or nitrates directive

The Green Party don't actually plan to ban live exports, as commonly perceived:

Live Exports
The Green Party does not promote or encourage live exports of animals. However, it does understand that if there were no live exports at present, the meat factories would have a monopoly on the meat trade in Ireland and the prices paid to the farmer would drop considerably. Until a viable alternative can be offered, the Green Party will seek to reduce the dominance of the large meat factories and supermarkets and lobby for the humane transport of animals at home and abroad while seeking to phase out live exports over time. The Party will promote local abattoirs and value-added meat processing to minimise live animal transportation.

jmayo

DJDC wrote:

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

Actually most of the rubbish dumped by the roadside in the country would probably come from the townies and not the locals.
There are reasons why some farmers see An Tasice as interfeering outsiders.
Some of the objections to houses on parents' farm come from people that do not live in area but visit few times a year.
Planning and development in this country is a joke anyway. And yes some of the Southfork type houses should never have been built.

Coming from a farming background the perception is that the greens will not care about farming and will affectively ban everything so that some townie can come visit (on his environmentally friendly transport) the countryside on his Sunday afternoon off.
Also there is a perception that GP supporters believe farmers can all make a living growing organic friendly produce.
These are the perceptions that are out there.

Farmers rightly or wrongly feel they are so many more controls and constraints in place now e.g nitrates directives, ban on burning, etc and that if GP get in there will be even more.

Allied to this some of their prenouncements on motoring and increaed taxes for motorists (who may be driving jeeps or 4x4s for valid reasons) is seen as being more detrimental to country dwellers.

GG66

I also live in a rural area and some of the perceptions that jmayo notes are commonplace.

The Green party are against one off housing in the countryside and this is something which doesn't go down well with a lot of rural dwellers..

The other reason they didn't do that well is that this was their first time to have candidates in every constituency. A lot of their candidates are not known

nesf

GG66 wrote:

The other reason they didn't do that well is that this was their first time to have candidates in every constituency. A lot of their candidates are not known

I'd go even further and say that few of their candidates were known. I know they were going for the whole nationwide thing but really I think they wasted money running candidates in areas where they had no chance of being elected. 3 seat rural constituencies spring to mind as an obvious place not to run a Green candidate.

Ruen

johnnyskeleton wrote:

From looking (briefly) at the election results so far, it appears that while the greens have a few seats in Dublin constituencies and good support in Galway and Cork, they don't seem to do well in more rural areas.

Does anyone know what kind of policies they offer in towns and rural areas or why they are unsuccessful there?

They're unsuccessful because the fat fcuking farmers of Ireland are too happy being paid to sit on their arses all day to risk voting for anyone but FF for fear they stop earning 80% of their money from state subsidies as opposed to real work.:)

mikemac

Ruen wrote:

They're unsuccessful because the fat fcuking farmers of Ireland are too happy being paid to sit on their arses all day to risk voting for anyone but FF for fear they stop earning 80% of their money from state subsidies as opposed to real work.:)

The same farmers can point to their nearest town and point out people getting council houses and welfare and often the same recipients never bother to work (dare I say spongers). Your average long term unemployed, work shy person wouldn't last a week doing heavy manual work on a farm.

Yes, I know most townies aren't like this but likewise most farmers are very far from being rich.

Excellent post above jmayo.

Farmers aren't totally against the Greens as they have some good ideas. Some were doing the Rural Environment Protection Scheme(REPS) long before this election.
But farmers won't stand to be dictated to by someone with little knowledge of the countryside. I know this is a thread about the Greens but Labours Hill Walking Bill is a classic example

Victor

jmayo wrote:

There are reasons why some farmers see An Tasice as interfeering outsiders. Some of the objections to houses on parents' farm come from people that do not live in area but visit few times a year.

Either the objection is valid or not. Should we throw away the book if nobody local makes an observation / objection.

Ruen

micmclo wrote:

The same farmers can point to their nearest town and point out people getting council houses and welfare and often the same recipients never bother to work (dare I say spongers). Your average long term unemployed, work shy person wouldn't last a week doing heavy manual work on a farm.

There's nothing wrong with people getting a council home, you know some people in this great economy we live in now havent gotten all the breaks that some of us get, like a cheque for a few grand every month just because they own a piece of land they dont even have to be farming, and there's no evidence to say they never bother to work. There's very few long term unemployed nowadays, neither would most "farmers".

nesf

Ruen wrote:

There's nothing wrong with people getting a council home, you know some people in this great economy we live in now havent gotten all the breaks that some of us get, like a cheque for a few grand every month just because they own a piece of land they dont even have to be farming, and there's no evidence to say they never bother to work. There's very few long term unemployed nowadays, neither would most "farmers".

I don't think he meant to imply that there was anything wrong with someone getting a council home. I read it as pointing out that there were freeloaders on both sides and that they were a minority on bother sides.

Ruen

micmclo wrote:

The same farmers can point to their nearest town and point out people getting council houses and welfare and often the same recipients never bother to work (dare I say spongers).

Well by that, I think he means they're in the majority.

mikemac

nesf wrote:

I don't think he meant to imply that there was anything wrong with someone getting a council home. I read it as pointing out that there were freeloaders on both sides and that they were a minority on bother sides.

Yes, that was exactly what I was saying. Every sector of society has freeloaders. This goes from top businessmen to people struggling to make ends meet.

Absolutly nothing wrong in getting a council house.
I don't want to drag this offthread, it's just that Ruen is making some generalizations about farmers

Back on topic about the Greens.......

jmayo

Ruen wrote:

There's nothing wrong with people getting a council home, you know some people in this great economy we live in now havent gotten all the breaks that some of us get, like a cheque for a few grand every month just because they own a piece of land they dont even have to be farming, and there's no evidence to say they never bother to work. There's very few long term unemployed nowadays, neither would most "farmers".

Ruen you have the typical common misconception that all farmers are rich, sit around and wait for a subsidy. Yes some farmers are rich but a hell of a lot are not. You may pay high price for meat but the farmer gets very little of it, most of it end up in the pocket of some Larry Goodman or other.

If they were so rich why are you finding almost all of the sons and daughters of farmers now working away from the farm and often farming as a parttime hobby, a very expensive one at that.
Also check out what the emmigration figures for farmers families were during the last century.

And your case about getting payments for not using land is due to that fact that EU dictates that crops can not be grown on set aside land, because they would be over supply, etc.
How would you like it if you have an asset and you are not allowed to use because that is in affect what is happening.
Just like we have milk quotas to prevent scenario where there is another butter mountain and milk lake.
This is in a world where half of the land is unarable desert and people are starving, but that is another debate.

Victor wrote:

Either the objection is valid or not. Should we throw away the book if nobody local makes an observation / objection.

I will openly state that I think some of the southfork style houses built in countryside are a disgrace and should never have been allowed.
Also the way string like bungalow development that has been allowed, for instance on the coast road out of Galway, has ruin beautiful areas and has turned country roads into streets.

But what gets up the noses of farmers is that somebody who does not live in area, visits couple of times a year, objects to planning of family member building house next door to parents.

Yes there should be controls so that somebody does not build in scenic area but then how do you square that with the case where a load of holiday homes are allowed be built so that a bunch of city folk can spend a few weekends down in the country with us culchies.
Look at Achill as prime example of what a fcuked up mess has been created with holiday homes.

Take a look at An Tasice and you will find they are nearly bankrupt and loosing members. They have embarked on cases and causes that even it's own members appear to be questioning.

Sorry just realised gone off thread but I felt above points needing answering.

And maybe above views from non-farmers illustrate why Greens not getting votes in rural areas.

You would need GP candidates to be from a farming background for a start to have credibility.
If you trott out a "townie" that illustrates any of the above views you are finished, might as well blow your deposit down the pub.
Another sticky subject alluded to earlier is the right to ramble. That is a another contentious point and God help the candidtae that says I believe hillwalkers have a right to go anywhere they like.

Húrin

johnnyskeleton wrote:

From looking (briefly) at the election results so far, it appears that while the greens have a few seats in Dublin constituencies and good support in Galway and Cork, they don't seem to do well in more rural areas.

That's because environmental degadation may be less obvious to rural residents.

nesf wrote:

It's painfully obvious that you don't know a whole lot about rural communities beyond a few bland stereotypes.

Oh really? Look at the constituencies of Ireland. The more rural it is, the more likely they are to just turn out a few FF or FG TDs. More urban areas produce much more political variety.

McSpud wrote:

IMO the Greens should move into the centre to challenge the existing big 3 & sell themselves are clean politics free from corporate or unions influence.

They already do sell themselves as such.

Gob&#225 wrote: »

Well, yes their policies are well to the left of Labour but there is a disconnect between the party's policies and a lot (not all) of their supporters.

Labour is more left than Greens I think; for example many Labour people are self-proclaimed socialists, unlike Green party members. Also it's Labour taking the big money from the unions, not Greens.

micmclo wrote:

But farmers won't stand to be dictated to by someone with little knowledge of the countryside.

Fair enough, but the Green candidates who run in rural areas are usually from that area.

nesf

H&#250 wrote: »

Oh really? Look at the constituencies of Ireland. The more rural it is, the more likely they are to just turn out a few FF or FG TDs. More urban areas produce much more political variety.

1) Small constituencies will tend to favour the larger parties, i.e. FG and FF.
2) Urban areas, and the accompanying large poorer areas produce more left wing candidates, rural communities don't tend to have the same concentration of "left wing" voters due to simply what the demographics are and the population density. Since most of the smaller parties are on the left we'd expect to see less of them being returned (and running candidates) in rural areas. Which is what happens.
3) Lack of political variety does not equate a parochial backwater. Smaller parties don't court the rural vote like FF and FG do, it's unsurprising that they don't have a lot of support there.

thebman

DJDC wrote:

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

This has to be a troll comment. Nobody can be this ignorant!

Rural people do care about the environment just as much as people living in a city but the greens say a lot about public transport etc.. which has nothing to do with rural areas because there is no public transport in rural areas. This means the greens policy to up 2 cent on a litre of petrol every year over 10 years, seriously increases the cost of living for rural people.

Then you do have the rural farmers for whom green policies in relation to farming would probably be viewed as negative.

Húrin

brim4brim wrote:

the greens say a lot about public transport etc.. which has nothing to do with rural areas because there is no public transport in rural areas.

Because the Greens have not got the chance to be in government. Public transport in the countryside is an issue.

jmayo

H&#250 wrote: »

Because the Greens have not got the chance to be in government. Public transport in the countryside is an issue.

Well now that they are going into government what proposals have they got for rural public transport or is that one of their principles and goals they have conveniently forgotten as well :rolleyes:

melsman

DJDC wrote:

I think the reason is fairly obvious dont you.Rural communties are parochial backwaters that are dominated by political families and connections.Add to this their complete disdain for anything green and environmental and the greens will always find it tough.

I know people will say country people like the environment blah blah.This fallacy just isnt bourne out in reality.They are constantly giving out about the interference from Taisce,Bord Pleana etc.Who would have thought you couldnt build a quarry/landfill/quadbike track out the back garden?They also show little interest in saving any local areas of natural importance and are all to keen to build and develop it for monetary gain.

you sir are a twat and id love to flog you with my shilealaigh..... bloody greens how do they have a right up in d4 to tell us that we cant build a house on our own land? god i hate them so much!!

Victor

melsman wrote:

you sir are a twat and id love to flog you with my shilealaigh..... bloody greens how do they have a right up in d4 to tell us that we cant build a house on our own land? god i hate them so much!!

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, but it is the law that decides whether one can build or not.

Pride Fighter

Well the GP's deputy leader won a seat in Carlow-Kilkenny thats a rural constituency. I think that the GP are a sensible enough party on agriculture. I did not vote for them but believe a phasing in of organic farming all over the island (with incentives and training given) and a gradual phasing in of ridding Irish agriculture of inhumane transport of animals would be a good thing. Consensus should be sought and the people on the ground know best on how to implement good policies like this.

Liam Byrne

a gradual phasing in of ridding Irish agriculture of inhumane transport of animals would be a good thing

Where the feck are the Green priorities ? You''re saying that they should put in rules about inhumane transport of animals, yet the first thing that they did was sell out on the inhumane and illegal transport of PEOPLE. :rolleyes:

jmayo

Pride Fighter wrote:

Well the GP's deputy leader won a seat in Carlow-Kilkenny thats a rural constituency. I think that the GP are a sensible enough party on agriculture. I did not vote for them but believe a phasing in of organic farming all over the island (with incentives and training given) and a gradual phasing in of ridding Irish agriculture of inhumane transport of animals would be a good thing. Consensus should be sought and the people on the ground know best on how to implement good policies like this.

Carlow Kilkenny has two major urban areas, and one is half full of ex Dubs from what I can see.
One of the reasons I heard FG failed to win a seat was a screw up regarding the breakdown of the areas the candidates should poll in.

What is your definition of organic farming?
A lot of farmers are already finding it hard to make ends meet and now you want to make them go all organic and cut their yields even further.

Are you willing to pay more than what you are currently paying for your meat and veg?
Would you be willing to increase taxes so you could subsidise the losses farmers would incurr if they went fully organic?

BTW I do agree that animals must be cared for properly and people who are inhumane to animals should be punished.