We heart corruption

The Muppet

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

Wait a minute, I can't complain about the Government if I didn't bother to vote? New one to me to be honest. Say there was no candiate I wished to vote for?

Say so on your voting paper.

you can have no valid complaint about an election outcome if you can't be bothered to vote.

gandalf

I have no sympathy for people who didn't check the registry, went to vote and found they weren't listed. I am extremely worried by those who claim they were on the registry but weren't on the lists in the polling station. That warrants an investigation and if the problem was widespread then someones head should roll.

Cake Fiend

Tristrame wrote:

Simplest thing to do then would be to make voting compulsary like in a lot of countries.

Hmm, not sure whether it would be better or worse to have another few hundred thousand people who haven't a notion about politics descending on our ballot offices.

Crash

As much as love to make a questionnaire mandatory to vote - i.e. "can you name the parties in ireland, can you prove you've even looked up any info on the candidates in your area etc.", compulsory voting would be what i'd most like to see. However alongside mandatory voting you need to increase polling time to two days, have serious information programmes based around the workings of PR-STV, and other changes in it to ensure that if people understand the basis behind it all.

oh, and make sure people understand how to spoil their vote

luckat

Maybe it's a good thing if people who don't care enough to pull out all the stops to get to the polls *can't* vote?

What about all those people who like to consider themselves Irish citizens, but consider their taxable money citizen of another (non-tax-paying) country. Maybe they shouldn't be able to vote either?

In the Philippines, you have to pay tax there if you're a citizen, even if you live abroad! You won't be let back in, otherwise.

Crash

To be honest, the three ideals within my mind to be registered to vote within this country would be:

1. PPS number
2. Registered to having paid or be in a position to be Payable for tax within the last x years (still not sure about this - important issues as to how long ago those who paid tax would be allowed vote - imo 5 years)
3. Irish/UK born.

a working system, allowing an overseas vote of those who have paid tax within this country.

nlgbbbblth

Blackjack wrote:

Have elections for the Dáil ever taken place on a day other than a thursday?. Anyone have that info?

1973 Wednesday
1977 Thursday
1981 Thursday
1982 (February) Thursday
1982 (November) Wednesday
1987 Tuesday
1989 Thursday
1992 Wednesday
1997 Friday
2002 Friday

Lennoxschips

1. PPS number
2. Registered to having paid or be in a position to be Payable for tax within the last x years (still not sure about this - important issues as to how long ago those who paid tax would be allowed vote - imo 5 years)
3. Irish/UK born.

don't agree with your third point. don't you mean irish/british citizens? place of birth and nationality are two different things.

as for your second point, my grandmother is in her late 80s and hasn't paid tax since the 1940s.
you could also have 18 year olds who have not yet gotten around to paying tax and are therefore not yet on the books as having paid it. or very rich people who have simply never worked a day in their lives.

a working system, allowing an overseas vote of those who have paid tax within this country.

have to agree with that. irish citizens who reside abroad yet do taxable irish work may not vote, yet irish citizens who reside in ireland and pay tax abroad (monte carlo etc) can vote. either give both groups the vote or neither.

Crash

Hence the second point being paid tax or in a position to be payable for tax. I know its only this year i've actually had to start paying tax, but prior to this i've been in a position to possibly pay it, depending on my income. ok, that point has to be worked out further, but I hope you get what I intended

also for point 3, I meant along the current vote system - rather Irish/UK passports or citizenship. its late me sleepy sorry for the mistakes.

and my point would be that even if someone isnt currently doing taxable work within this country, the fact that they have been resident and have paid tax to support the system means they deserve a right to decide its future.

Zaph

All EU nationals, not just British, residing in this country to vote (maybe with conditions on length of residency) should have the right. If a person from Poland or wherever is paying tax here, they have a right to have a say in who spends their money. Similarly all Irish citizens abroad should be allowed to vote. We're one of the few countries that doesn't allow this and it's a disgrace.

McSandwich

gandalf wrote:

I am extremely worried by those who claim they were on the registry but weren't on the lists in the polling station. That warrants an investigation and if the problem was widespread then someones head should roll.

I heard on the news that, in Clare alone, something like 1000 voter discovered they weren't on the register on arrival at polling stations. I believe these were voters who hadn't changed address and were not notified that they were removed from the electoral register. I would be surprised if cases like this go unchallenged. I'd love to know how that €12m was spent..

Crash

The only issue with abroad votes is where should they be put, to be honest.

Zaph

As in which constituencies they should count for? Simple, the constiuency you currently have your Irish residence in, or based on your last address in Ireland. Obviously there are individuals who have Irish passports but have never lived here, Jack Charlton's football squad for instance, and maybe they could have one TD set aside for them, or if numbers aren't that significant that one seat could represent all Irish voting abroad.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

What a load of utter rubbish.

Nice polite debating there tristame.

The electoral register was approximately 3 million people this year and was bigger than 2002 when you account for the population growth.

I suppose you can explain why Dick Roche spent 12 million of tax payers money on 'sorting out the register' if the purpose wasn't to remove duplicate registrations.
(oh yeah, that was another government program that was an absolute and complete failure, as was expected)

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Nice polite debating there tristame.

Well it is utter rubbish what you stated ie that there were less people on the register this time round accounting for the higher turn out.
What do you expect me to say?

I suppose you can explain why Dick Roche spent 12 million of tax payers money on 'sorting out the register' if the purpose wasn't to remove duplicate registrations.
(oh yeah, that was another government program that was an absolute and complete failure, as was expected)

I wouldn't say it was an abject failure.Theres no accounting for peoples inability to check in time that they are on the register.
Unless you had the unrealistic expectation that the strangers calling to peoples doors would get everything absolutely right.

I know I checked to see if I was still on the register and I was and I got my sister on to it in time for the election.
Perhaps you are in favour of some sort of orwellian society and you want everything done for you?

CerebralCortex

spudington16 wrote:

We also heart a thriving economy, and a diverse society. Get with the programme.

We don't have a diverse society we drink and consume and that was reflected in how we voted. Majority rules I guess.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Well it is utter rubbish what you stated ie that there were less people on the register this time round accounting for the higher turn out.
What do you expect me to say?

I expect you to interpret what I say properly. I never said there were less people on the register, I said that duplicate votes had been removed (or were supposed to have been) which would mean that even if the exact same proportion of valid votes had been cast, the voter turnout figures would be higher.
Can i expect an apology?

I wouldn't say it was an abject failure.Theres no accounting for peoples inability to check in time that they are on the register.

Now that's rubbish. If someone is being removed from the register at a certain address, there should have automatically been a letter sent out to that address informing that person that the change was being made (in enough time for the individual to correct the mistake) Simply telling people to 'check the register' is not good enough.

Perhaps you are in favour of some sort of orwellian society and you want everything done for you?

No, when the state unilaterally removes someone from the register, they should inform the voter of what they have done, and not expect the voter to go around checking up in libraries (my local library didn't even have an updated register available to look at) or poorly designed websites

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

I expect you to interpret what I say properly. I never said there were less people on the register, I said that duplicate votes had been removed (or were supposed to have been) which would mean that even if the exact same proportion of valid votes had been cast, the voter turnout figures would be higher.
Can i expect an apology?

No

You said...

The increased turnout in this election might have a lot to do with the purging of the electoral register. Lots of duplicate registrations were removed so even if the same number of people voted, it will look like there was a higher turnout.

I said

The electoral register was approximately 3 million people this year and was bigger than 2002

Do the maths.

Now that's rubbish. If someone is being removed from the register at a certain address, there should have automatically been a letter sent out to that address informing that person that the change was being made (in enough time for the individual to correct the mistake) Simply telling people to 'check the register' is not good enough.

It's the way it works,it's the way it was set up.There were no provisions for letters to be sent.

No, when the state unilaterally removes someone from the register, they should inform the voter of what they have done, and not expect the voter to go around checking up in libraries (my local library didn't even have an updated register available to look at) or poorly designed websites

The state per say didnt remove them-individuals did on behalf of the state.
If you have a problem with human error, then take it up with the individual register checkers.

gandalf

I think you are all losing sight of the main problems here.

The first is the cleanup of the registry. 12million wasted on another FF botch job. Who will lose their job over this. Dick Roche should be a permanent back bencher after this cock up.

The second is where people did check they were on the registry and then subsequently when they went to vote were not on the list. Why did this happen? Will there be legal consequences to this? Was their removal a cock up or something more sinister?

If I was one of the people who were part of the second group I would be livid and I would be considering legal action. I take my voting rights as a citizen of Ireland very seriously and I have never missed an opportunity to vote.

Marcais

gandalf wrote:

I think you are all losing sight of the main problems here.

The first is the cleanup of the registry. 12million wasted on another FF botch job. Who will lose their job over this. Dick Roche should be a permanent back bencher after this cock up.

The second is where people did check they were on the registry and then subsequently when they went to vote were not on the list. Why did this happen? Will there be legal consequences to this? Was their removal a cock up or something more sinister?

If I was one of the people who were part of the second group I would be livid and I would be considering legal action. I take my voting rights as a citizen of Ireland very seriously and I have never missed an opportunity to vote.

Roche has bought enough votes in Wicklow to give him the same (enviromentally hazardous!) Teflon coating as his leader. Good news for Fine Gael in Wicklow with 2 seats but bad news for Wicklow as they now have 2 FF and 2 FG TDs who will continue the unholy alliance with developers. Goodbye to Charlesland Golf Club and much green area.

jmayo

nesf wrote:

I don't think I'd describe Japan's bubble and more importantly it's overall economic situation at the time as being similar to Ireland's at the moment. Two quite different kettles of fish when you get down to the brass tacks of it.

nesf, yeah we are much different to Japan.
We are in a much worse situation. After all I don't think we have a Sony, Toyoat, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Corp. Do we?
What have we got, jobs provided by foreign multi-nationals that are about to move lower cost bases.

maoleary wrote:

Expect a sudden drop in economic fortune around Feb 08, doubt Bertie has a clue how to stop it, he's just riding the crest of a wave of good fortune that he didn't invent, sustain or help, rather, FF policy has killed the economy, our housing industry is not sustainable and the increase in skilled foreign workers with English as a fluent feather in their caps is much too juicy for the MNCs my friend. Feb 08 at the latest. Wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner.

If you can't see the issues, read the latest OECD report on Ireland. We may have just signed our financial death warrants last Thursday folks.

Exports are down overall, and we are being heavily criticized for our lack of skills, we have a shortage of main skills for ICT, Science, (particularly biomedical, food and Biotech). And the numbers of these graduates is declining, rather than increasing, due in part to reduced class sizes, but also due in part to the "living off the state" creed.

We are also cutting our own throats with our silly rates of inflation. FF? No thank you. Expect the downturn to worsen in the coming weeks and months. Perhaps not total recession, but quite a bad downturn.

FF didn't invent, sustain or help the Celtic Tiger. They starved it, mutilated it, and raped it to death. We just signed off on how much we enjoy their incompetence. Well done, all.

How true.
maoleary, have you ever noticed where you give this synopsis of the Irish economy and most of the posters ignore it or else slate it as pessimistic and that everything is fine.
I believe people do not want to hear the truth, else they might get a little worried about their 40 year mortgage for their overpriced future negative equity in some commuter town.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

No

It's the way it works,it's the way it was set up.There were no provisions for letters to be sent.

Once again, the 'neutral' Tristame gives excuses for FF ministers incompetence, and implies that it's everyone else's fault.

The state per say didnt remove them-individuals did on behalf of the state.
If you have a problem with human error, then take it up with the individual register checkers.

And again. Who designed the system? who approved the system? who is responsible for the 12 million wasted and the incompetent way the job was done?
Everyone but the FF minister.

Lennoxschips

zaph wrote:

As in which constituencies they should count for? Simple, the constiuency you currently have your Irish residence in, or based on your last address in Ireland. Obviously there are individuals who have Irish passports but have never lived here, Jack Charlton's football squad for instance, and maybe they could have one TD set aside for them, or if numbers aren't that significant that one seat could represent all Irish voting abroad.

There are 1.5 million Irish born citizens overseas and another 1.5 million registered Irish citizens/passport holders overseas (mostly the kids of the Irish born). That's 3 million overseas citizens.

I say give the overseas voters a five seater constituency. That's 600,000 people per TD, comparing to about 25,000 per TD in Ireland. We'd have some representation, but it would only be 4% as much as the resident Irish get, in order to take our non-residency into account. I think the Irish overseas would have an invaluable input in the election, having seen how things work in all sorts of different countries around the world. Could be an interesting constituency.

30txsbzmcu2k9w

Yep its a disgrace. Bertie's 'salt of the earth howarya' nonsense won over the auld ones again. 10 years was ridiculous - 15 years of the same is actually unhealty for a country.

Its fairly obvious the younger vote with a bit more cop-on were looking for an alternative.
Of course students were affected and it left a serious dent in the hopes of the opposition - to those who say it only takes 4 minutes for students to vote- dont be daft, many students would have to travel home to vote in their constituency- not convenient, and very-likely impossible in the circumstances

Have to question the intelligence of the majority of this country after that election. Shocking that so many could choose to ignore this chancers dealings.:mad:

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mickoneill30

Lennoxschips wrote:

I think the Irish overseas would have an invaluable input in the election, having seen how things work in all sorts of different countries around the world. Could be an interesting constituency.

I disagree. As somebody who has lived abroad for 5 years (returned last year) you lose touch with what's happening in politics back home. I was living in Australia and I had a largish group of Irish friends / workmates there. Politics is something we discussed a fair bit but it was Australian politics. It's hard to keep up to date with what's happening in a different country when it's not that relevant to you.
If I was able to vote when abroad I would have but it would have been for the same guys I always voted for before.

mickoneill30

Corbin Jealous Hatchback wrote:

Of course students were affected and it left a serious dent in the hopes of the opposition - to those who say it only takes 4 minutes for students to vote- dont be daft, many students would have to travel home to vote in their constituency- not convenient, and very-likely impossible in the circumstances

Have you read the rest of this thread. I won't repeat what has been said many times before about postal votes. Usual crap about people not taking responsibility for their own actions. It's always someone elses fault.

Corbin Jealous Hatchback wrote:

Have to question the intelligence of the majority of this country after that election. Shocking that so many could choose to ignore this chancers dealings.

I'd have to question the intelligence of all these students that couldn't figure out how to do a postal vote. It's not like it's a secret and a lot of them did figure it out.

Zaph

Lennoxschips wrote:

There are 1.5 million Irish born citizens overseas and another 1.5 million registered Irish citizens/passport holders overseas (mostly the kids of the Irish born). That's 3 million overseas citizens.

I say give the overseas voters a five seater constituency. That's 600,000 people per TD, comparing to about 25,000 per TD in Ireland. We'd have some representation, but it would only be 4% as much as the resident Irish get, in order to take our non-residency into account. I think the Irish overseas would have an invaluable input in the election, having seen how things work in all sorts of different countries around the world. Could be an interesting constituency.

I didn't realise the numbers eligible to vote were that high. In that case I agree with you, a separate 5-seater would be a good idea, with the seats taken from other constituencies as part of a review of our parliamentary over-representation.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Once again, the 'neutral' Tristame

Carefull there Sir.I'm entitled to give a view without you attacking me.Whats more I gave perfectly good mathematical reasons for why your post on the turn out didnt make sense and you've came back with a personal attack.

gives excuses for FF ministers incompetence, and implies that it's everyone else's fault.

Regarding the electoral check? What do you expect any minister of any hue to do? Go out himself and follow the people on the ground all day to make sure they have it 100% correct? Please...!

And again. Who designed the system? who approved the system? who is responsible for the 12 million wasted and the incompetent way the job was done?
Everyone but the FF minister.

Well I don't agree that you could say it was ENTIRELY the ministers fault given that the time frame to do the check was so short.I also don't agree that you can blanket condemn the electoral check unless you have a significant problem.
No matter what check you do you are not going to get it 100% accurate you are relying on human error.
Remember the check was carried out in the first place in response to the media highlighting what a ridiculous state the register was in prior to the check.
Secondly the deadline was extended for the check to continue.
I've no doubt that all Dáil members will now press for a further examination of the register assuming that we wont have to rush it prior to the election.

And While I'm here,most of that money was spent in this country so it actually contributed to the economy when the register checkers spent it in their local shops etc ...but hey I'd expect that to be lost on you as you dont agree with capitalism in the first place from your other many posts on that subject do you

gandalf

I would reckon alot of the 12 million was spent on advertising and photo shoots with at least 2 models draped off Cockroche !!!

Ignoring the whole 'students didn't get a chance to vote' (especially since I've given my opinion on it, and that I am a student who voted) perhaps it might be worth considering how students are usually quite politically active (and as many would say, naive). Even still, there are big enough memberships of the youth wings of the political parties, and due to exams these activists were unable to canvass for their respective parties, which may have dented some of the parties.

Blackjack

nlgbbbblth wrote:

1973 Wednesday
1977 Thursday
1981 Thursday
1982 (February) Thursday
1982 (November) Wednesday
1987 Tuesday
1989 Thursday
1992 Wednesday
1997 Friday
2002 Friday

Thanks. Should be no major shock to the system then to have an election on a Thursday.

Nor should it have been a huge shock that an election took place in May or June. I have great difficulty with people claiming that they could not vote because they did not bother to find out how to Register, go to the cop station or post a letter. If it was felt to be important enought to them, they really would have figured this out.

nesf

jmayo wrote:

nesf, yeah we are much different to Japan.
We are in a much worse situation. After all I don't think we have a Sony, Toyoat, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Corp. Do we?
What have we got, jobs provided by foreign multi-nationals that are about to move lower cost bases.

We don't have those companies equivalents I agree (though with the size difference it'd be damn unusual if we did). Whether or not that makes things worse here is not as obvious. Again, it is not as simple as that.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Carefull there Sir.I'm entitled to give a view without you attacking me.Whats more I gave perfectly good mathematical reasons for why your post on the turn out didnt make sense and you've came back with a personal attack.

What you did was take one word 'numbers' and interpret it out of context. I meant 'proportion'. I'm not saying you did it on purpose, and I accept responsibility for not being clear enough but your tone was very aggressive and I don't respond well to that kind of attitude.

Regarding the electoral check? What do you expect any minister of any hue to do? Go out himself and follow the people on the ground all day to make sure they have it 100% correct? Please...!

No, he should have ensured that the reforms he was overseeing were effective. He should have ensured that before someone was unilaterally removed from the register (under seemingly random circumstances), that a letter was sent to that person to inform them of the change in time for the voter to make suitable arrangements to ensure he/she was put back on. That is a common sense thing that should have been done. You act surprised that people were disenfranchised (and blame them and the administrators) but it is the only forseeable consequence of unilaterally chopping and changing the register without any consultation.

Well I don't agree that you could say it was ENTIRELY the ministers fault given that the time frame to do the check was so short.I also don't agree that you can blanket condemn the electoral check unless you have a significant problem.

It didn't do the job it was intended to do. It was supposed to clear up the register, the initial reports following polling day are of thousands of voters refused a ballot card at the place they had registered themselves.

No matter what check you do you are not going to get it 100% accurate you are relying on human error.

And a lot of that human error was made at an executive level by approving a flawed system

And While I'm here,most of that money was spent in this country so it actually contributed to the economy when the register checkers spent it in their local shops etc ...but hey I'd expect that to be lost on you as you dont agree with capitalism in the first place from your other many posts on that subject do you

No i don't
But redistributing wealth through public works is the very thin wedge of capitalism... and as has already been said, a lot of that 12 million went into the pockets of advertising companies and big media conglomorates, more than into the (rapidly disappearing) corner shops

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

And a lot of that human error was made at an executive level by approving a flawed system

The difficulty I have with that is that we have a lot of arguments on this thread saying people didnt have a chance to get their postal vote/onto the supplimentary register-yet the election was an inevitability.
Do you really think that there would have been a good response to a letter ?I'd agree with you that in hindsight it would have been an additional failsafe but I'd entirely disagree that it would have changed much...what with people coming in late from work or whatever and kicking the pile of letters to the side of the mat as they come in and dealing with the important ones like the bills.

Perfection is an idealistic thing.

And a lot of that human error was made at an executive level by approving a flawed system

No it wasn't.
A person had to go to the door and see who was in and decide accordingly.
This was all done at the media's and the oppositions insistance and all with a very short time to go prior to an election.
The only sure fire way of judging its effectiveness was on election day itself.
In theory it should have worked but in theory we can't eliminate human error.

nlgbbbblth

Blackjack wrote:

Thanks. Should be no major shock to the system then to have an election on a Thursday.

Nor should it have been a huge shock that an election took place in May or June. I have great difficulty with people claiming that they could not vote because they did not bother to find out how to Register, go to the cop station or post a letter. If it was felt to be important enought to them, they really would have figured this out.

no problem
have updated it with the dates.
Five of the previous ten elections took place in May or June.

1973 Wednesday 28 February
1977 Thursday 16 June
1981 Thursday 11 June
1982 Thursday 18 February
1982 Wednesday 24 November
1987 Tuesday 17 February
1989 Thursday 15 June
1992 Wednesday 25 November
1997 Friday 6 June
2002 Friday 17 May

thebman

nlgbbbblth wrote:

no problem
have updated it with the dates.
Five of the previous ten elections took place in May or June.

1973 Wednesday 28 February
1977 Thursday 16 June
1981 Thursday 11 June
1982 Thursday 18 February
1982 Wednesday 24 November
1987 Tuesday 17 February
1989 Thursday 15 June
1992 Wednesday 25 November
1997 Friday 6 June
2002 Friday 17 May

Point being? Just because every party is against young people voting yet says the contrary, doesn't mean this wasn't the time it should have changed.

I remain of the opinion that the big parties think young people voting equals votes for Sinn Fein and so always want to stop young people voting.

Lennoxschips

sorry tristrame, but FF spent 12 million of public funds on a new register and it was just as bad as the old one, if not worse. accountability is needed at the highest level for that.

OPENROAD

shamblertine wrote:

Its all about style over substance. Kenny didn't have a chance of getting in because he was too short. Just like the conservatives in england had no chance for years because they always had bald leaders.

Imo William Hague was just unlucky he became leader when he did, an excellent speaker,mind,would have made a great PM, will make an excellent member of the cabinet after the nxt election.

Sleepy

sioda wrote:

But you should not be forced to vote in a consituency that means nothing to you

Yes you should. We were electing our *national* government, not a bunch of bloody county councillors. Your attitude sums up a huge part of what's wrong with Irish politics imho. As long as we keep our politics at the parish pump we'll have corrupt and ineffective governance.

Lennoxschips

in that case, why have constituencies at all?

jmayo

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I do not like FF/PD and what they have done to Irish politics and their lack of accountability.
I will also admit that the FG/Lab are also afraid to mention the white elephant in the corner, i.e. the Irish economy being over reliant on construction (really only residential as well).
Nobody wants to talk about the possible bad news, so FG/Lab joined the hoopla about how great economy is. Hope sells pessimism does not.

Regarding Joan Burton I think she is a waste of space and yes I will admit that FG/Lab have them as well as FF and PDs.
Have you ever watched some of the eejits that are elected, from all parties, being interviewed.

Lennoxschips

Lennoxschips wrote:

sorry tristrame, but FF spent 12 million of public funds on a new register and it was just as bad as the old one, if not worse. accountability is needed at the highest level for that.

I disagree completely.That doesnt stand up given the short time frame they had up to the election.
Of course they had to advertise it and of course they had to put fliers through letterboxes and of course they had to pay the people that called to the doors.
None of that was free.

If some other government were there,they'd have to do the same thing.
If the current one didn't do it they'd be damned aswell!

Lennoxschips

they didn't have enough time? that's their own fault, they had five years to sort it out but left it till 2006, wasted 12 million euro and generally made a mess of it. i have no problem with it costing 12 million euro (as you say, all those people who go from house to house need to be paid), but having spent the money you have to get it right.

there are no excuses.

johnlambe

spudington16 wrote:

This is ridiculous. Given the polling places were open from early in the morning til late enough at night I can't imagine anyone using exams or study as an excuse; it only takes a few minutes.

Well if it didn't make a difference, why are they complaining about it?
http://www.petitiononline.com/Thursno/petition.html

Travelling from where one studies to where one is registered to vote can take more than a few minutes.
I know they could have registered where they were in college, but the point is that this makes students less likely to vote (for example, by causing lazy students to not vote, while not having the same effect on lazy non-students), and that is all that's required to skew the result to some extent.

nlgbbbblth

When I was in college it was considered 'cool' not to vote. I always made sure I voted but I think some people saw that as square.

Is this still the case?

Liam Byrne

brim4brim wrote:

I remain of the opinion that the big parties think young people voting equals votes for Sinn Fein and so always want to stop young people voting.

Whoa! That's a HUGE assumption!

I appreciate that your emphasis is on "what the big parties seem to think" as against what you personally think, but surely you have to give young people more credit than that!

And before I get flamed by any SF supporters, what I mean is that the majority of the electorate are not yet 100% convinced that SF have either (a) 100% committed or (b) good policies or (c) a combination of both.......[and PLEASE note that I used the word "YET".....I am hoping that is, or will be true] but SF still have a couple of theories/philosophies that don't sit well with people.

It's a bit of a jump to suppose that while most of the electorate appear to be able to see that, that young people don't have the same anxieties. True, the next generation - those who (hopefully) won't have lived through Gerry McCabe's and Robert McCartney's murders and Gerry Adams' refusal to acknowledge the basic human rights of their widows/sisters, preferring to be photographed with those involved, etc - will probably be able to gloss over it easier, but the current crop of 18-year-olds HAVE lived through some of the examples of "republican" crime, and have seen Gerry & Co avoid condemning them.

Yes, SF will have its supporters, as is their right, I suppose, considering that FF and Charlie and Bertie have theirs, no matter what they did either....but blanketing all "young people" as SF supporters is a huge leap, and combining that with the implication that it's a factor in the election date makes the Area 51 conspiracy seem believeable!

vallo

Lennoxschips wrote:

in that case, why have constituencies at all?

You might have something there!

People vote in their representatives because of favours they did them, because they see them in the local tesco doing their shopping or because they are down in the school handing out the medals every sportsday - it is nothing to do with how well they are able govern the nation.

I was flootering around on wikipedia recently and I came accross a definition of parochialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parochialism) which is interesting.

Personally, I'd like to see PR with a list system, so the best and brightest would be prioritised by their party, and the wasters who top the poll locally but are largely incompetent would be less likely to continue in office.