We heart corruption

AidoCQS

In fairness you are comparing an hour out to watch a game, or an evening out to watch a concert with commuting back to your home county, or alternatively locating a change of address form, having a Garda sign it, posting it off, waiting for post even though you never get post at that address, then locating a local polling station, and voting for people you barely know, that never speak to you or knock on a door to ask for your vote.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote:

If there was a Radiohead gig on a Thursday night in May, would all the exam-sitting students miss it to stay in college to study?

How many exam-sitting students found 90 spare minutes to watch the Champions League final?

Excuses, excuses.....

Ok a lot of people on here probably went to college in home city, so no problems may only take a couple hours but not so fine if you happen to be from country or different city.
It definetly takes more than 90 minutes to get from Limerick to Mayo and back. Have any of the people here ever caught a bus from Limerick to Ballina?

Regarding registering in local constituency, lots of people may not want to do it and has anyone noticed the mess they have actually made out of the voting register. Another 12 million down the tubes.

Why don't we have election at weekend. Had German in work on Thursday who was actually surpirsed that we hold election during the week.

Maybe there are ways around it for students to vote, but there is also some reason political parties want to hold it mid week rather than weekend?

Actually don't think students would make difference. Gone are the days of radical left wing students, now they are more interested in jobs and car loans.
Also they have never had it better than last 10/15 years so they reckon good times will roll on under this adminsitration.

luckat

jmayo wrote:

Regarding registering in local constituency, lots of people may not want to do it.

Ah well, that's all right then. Of course they're not responsible for who's running the country in that case. Grand so.

And the point about the German students - absolutely on the button. I wonder if their study is available online.

Wishbone Ash

jmayo wrote:

Why don't we have election at weekend

Then the students would complain that they spend the weekend working/studying/drinking/travelling and wouldn't waste their precious time voting.

"Why can't polling day be during the week when we're in college?". :rolleyes:

Tom Dunne

luckat wrote:

Getting back to the question of political corruption. The "Ah, sure, everyone's at it" argument doesn't wash. There are levels of fiddling, and levels of trust.

<snip>

Have we no one better than this?

Therein lies the crux of the matter - we don't. It's a case of better the divil you know, despite his monumental flaws. In 2002, I found Michael Noonan to be an utterly repulsive, arrogant figure, as did most of the electorate. We all know how well FG did then.

Sadly, Enda Kenny is at the other end of the spectrum, a sort of Niles Crane of Irish politics.

And it's not just in this country. It seems to be happening in democracies across the Western World. Look at the US, France, Germany to name but a few. People are split down the middle, there's no one strong, charismatic, born leader among them.

AidoCQS

AidoCQS wrote:

In fairness you are comparing an hour out to watch a game, or an evening out to watch a concert with commuting back to your home county, or alternatively locating a change of address form, having a Garda sign it, posting it off, waiting for post even though you never get post at that address, then locating a local polling station, and voting for people you barely know, that never speak to you or knock on a door to ask for your vote.

My point is, if you want to vote you will do so, whether that be going to the 'bother' of a postal vote or actually doing the logical thing and registering at a new address.
If someone doesn't want to vote, fine.
But whinging about the date and day of the election really irritates me.

luckat

tom dunne wrote:

Therein lies the crux of the matter - we don't. It's a case of better the divil you know, despite his monumental flaws. In 2002, I found Michael Noonan to be an utterly repulsive, arrogant figure, as did most of the electorate. We all know how well FG did then.

Yes.

The left is fragmented and divided, with the fatties of Labour no longer seeming left-wing at all, and the Dail's one socialist, Joe Higgins, voted out.

The right is tainted with corruption in the case of one party; the second right-wing party is a bunch of creeping Jesuses; the third, now neutered, is full of bullying blusterers.

spudington16

Stark wrote:

That's a bit of a myth in my opinion. Corporation tax and IDA grants have far more of a bearing on location decisions than the promise of our super skills. I could guarantee that if you doubled corporation tax in the morning, most MNCs would be off to India and China faster than you could blink.

Sigh... Yes, but do you think those taxes are low by accident? Some would, yeah - that's life - but others are setting up shop here for the long-term, and it's not just the tax thing.

spudington16

AidoCQS wrote:

In fairness you are comparing an hour out to watch a game, or an evening out to watch a concert with commuting back to your home county, or alternatively locating a change of address form, having a Garda sign it, posting it off, waiting for post even though you never get post at that address, then locating a local polling station, and voting for people you barely know, that never speak to you or knock on a door to ask for your vote.

This is such a flawed argument: first you lament the inability of students to vote because of how politicians are conspiring against them, then when you have several valid alternative means of voting presented to you, you turn around and say it doesn't matter because you don't want to vote for candidates in your constituency anyway! Make up you mind!!!

AidoCQS

Deleted User wrote:

My point is, if you want to vote you will do so, whether that be going to the 'bother' of a postal vote or actually doing the logical thing and registering at a new address.
If someone doesn't want to vote, fine.
But whinging about the date and day of the election really irritates me.

And my point is basically that in a democracy - everybody should have equal opportunity to vote - students are basically in Limbo.
I reject the arguement that people constantly use against students where they take a concert or a pub or something and make that visable few emblematic of the masses, who cannot afford to go to a pub, are working every spare minute they have to supplement their income in this high cost economy. It is the unwaged who have suffered most under PD/FF.

AidoCQS

spudington16 wrote:

This is such a flawed argument: first you lament the inability of students to vote because of how politicians are conspiring against them, then when you have several valid alternative means of voting presented to you, you turn around and say it doesn't matter because you don't want to vote for candidates in your constituency anyway! Make up you mind!!!

When you respond to my main argument I will happily jump on your tangent.

Do you accept that it put students at a disadvantage to ask them to move their registration, as apposed to simply putting the election on a weekend or the very least a friday.

Akrasia

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

The increased turnout in this election might have a lot to do with the purging of the electoral register. Lots of duplicate registrations were removed so even if the same number of people voted, it will look like there was a higher turnout.

Akrasia

jmayo wrote:

Why don't we have election at weekend.

Because lots of middle aged middle income FF voters will be on weekend breaks to their holiday home in spain at the weekend?

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote:

My point is, if you want to vote you will do so, whether that be going to the 'bother' of a postal vote or actually doing the logical thing and registering at a new address.
If someone doesn't want to vote, fine.
But whinging about the date and day of the election really irritates me.

You don't understand do you? If you make it hard for one demographic to vote and easy for another demographic to vote, then more of the second demographic will turn out and they will have a bigger impact on the result of the election, and in any close contest, it's the marginal voters who make the difference (Die hard voters will always get out and usually vote for the same parties anyway)

You can complain about the lazy apathetic student voters not being bothered to go to the trouble of an 8 hour round trip in the middle of their exams to cast a ballot or who didn't apply for a postal vote in the 2 day window they were given, but there are plenty non students out there who would never have voted if they had been expected to jump through the same hoops. If you let 'lazy voters' from one demographic have an easy time, but make 'lazy voters' from another demographic take complicated or drastic measures to cast a vote, then it's going to result in an unbalanced representation at the ballot box.

Lennoxschips

The way the economy is is 43% of it powered by construction. We're not making, we're not exporting, we're cannibalising. It's not sustainable.

Well said. Japan had a similar property bubble which burst in 1989. They still haven't recovered from it.

The difference between Japan and Ireland is that when Japan's "Tiger" was roaring they made massive investments in health, schools, high speed rail etc. And they had built up big indigenous companies like Honda, Toyota, Sony etc., which helped cushion the blow.

Ireland has Ryanair and wooden decking. Michael O'Leary won't be coming to anybody's rescue.

Let FF preside over the implosion of the mess they made, I say.

nesf

Lennoxschips wrote:

Well said. Japan had a similar property bubble which burst in 1989. They still haven't recovered from it.

I don't think I'd describe Japan's bubble and more importantly it's overall economic situation at the time as being similar to Ireland's at the moment. Two quite different kettles of fish when you get down to the brass tacks of it.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

The increased turnout in this election might have a lot to do with the purging of the electoral register. Lots of duplicate registrations were removed so even if the same number of people voted, it will look like there was a higher turnout.

What a load of utter rubbish.
The electoral register was approximately 3 million people this year and was bigger than 2002 when you account for the population growth.
There were 1,786,636 votes cast (yes way over 1 and three quarter million votes)

Akrasia wrote:

Because lots of middle aged middle income FF voters will be on weekend breaks to their holiday home in spain at the weekend?

You have of course evidence to back up this other nonsense rhetorical?

Crash

Sorry, the number of people here who seem to have the view that only those who care enough about it should really be allowed vote is unbelievable.

the "aah sure, if they really wanted to vote they would have" argument is ridiculous. Votings a right, not a "if you can prove by jumping through hoops that you really really want to, you can" priveledge.

If most of the people in this country had to either sort out postal vote or not at all, the turnout would have dropped a ridiculuous amount. I don't think anyone could dispute that.

So then how is it fair to single out students as just being lazy and uninterested when they're really the exact same as the rest of the country, but have been put in a position whereby they have to sort out a service which numerous numbers in this country (not just students) are completely and blissfully unaware of.

add onto that the miniscule amount of time between the call of the election and the closing date for a postal vote, and it adds up to the fact that a student living outside of their home town for college is put in a very awkward situation.

And by the way, lots of universities and colleges are still mid exam period. Trinity and UCD for example are right smack dab in the middle of it.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

AidoCQS

Nobody in this site would be suprised, but the student body in general, many just turned 18 would be, there is alot to the Irish election system thats hard to get your head around, proportional voting, even how Bertie is appointed, we have to make it accessable!

Crash

Hell when we were getting people to register to vote we couldnt answer the question of WHERE they should vote - a May election means voting in dublin, a June election means voting at home.

You can't expect people 18-20, who've never voted before, to know anything about it. and to do so is childish to the extreme.

Aedh Baclamh

Raphael wrote:

And the people who bitch and moan without actually doing anything to get over it are a waste of space, tbh. The same sort of people who complain about the government and don't bother to vote.

Wait a minute, I can't complain about the Government if I didn't bother to vote? New one to me to be honest. Say there was no candiate I wished to vote for?

nesf

&#231 wrote: »

You can't expect people 18-20, who've never voted before, to know anything about it. and to do so is childish to the extreme.

What? You can't expect adults to know about something as important as voting now? What next, speeding tickets not been given out to learner drivers because "sure, they haven't been driving that long have they?".

AidoCQS

It’s not just about 'knowing something' and its not that they are 'less intelligent' than young adults are supposed to be

Students will not vote for the sake of voting, they need to know why.

They need to understand proportional representation, so that they know its not ALL about electing all of a government, (Greens have no chance so why bother) its about getting your party to be part of the government so that they (and you by extension) have a say. There is a lot in that

If they and they often are the first in the family to go to third level, then they might even be the first in their family to really take an interest in voting. A bit broad-brush but we cannot assume they are going to learn the process from their parents.

Look also how meaningless the traditional message is to them...

Posters in their local constituency - they are rarely at home..
Canvassing in their local constituency - they again are not at home to answer the door, and then nobody knocks on the door of their student bedsit, a five second how are you wont reach them, you need to involve them in the debate.
Broadsheet papers and evening news - not really done by students.
Voting for the family party - students don’t do it.

Students choose to be more informed before voting, and the only way candidates are going to do that is by being more interactive on the net. Coming to the colleges (is that allowed?) and making it part of second level curriculum (Most teachers won’t touch it because they do not want to come off as favouring any political party).

daveirl

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Crash

...CSPE - you're basing your idea of how well students are taught about politics on the CSPE course thats taught in school.

There seems to be this expectation that students should make sure they're informed. and its true, there should be that expectation. But they're not the only age bracket thats completely clueless about the voting procedure in this country. in fact, as far as I've gathered over the past while a very small minority know the ins and outs of PR (let alone PR-STV), a very small selection also know how to aply for a postal vote, and so on and so forth.

From the opinions in this thread, what I can gather then is that voting should only be a right for those who are informed enough on how to do it. and you know, when I see certain candidates get elected, this is an idea I dearly wish to subscribe to. but its not.

Therefore, EVERYTHING should be done by the government to make voting easier. if that means holding peoples hands through the process, then you know what, so be it.

Marcus.Aurelius

spudington16 wrote:

While our dependence on the construction industry is far from ideal, we are a well-qualified, skills-based economy that many MNCs are happy to invest heavily in. Ireland is also ranked 4th in the HDI rankings, and we have a great standard of living. Our exports are high, and unemployment is poles apart from what it was several decades ago.

Expect a sudden drop in economic fortune around Feb 08, doubt Bertie has a clue how to stop it, he's just riding the crest of a wave of good fortune that he didn't invent, sustain or help, rather, FF policy has killed the economy, our housing industry is not sustainable and the increase in skilled foreign workers with English as a fluent feather in their caps is much too juicy for the MNCs my friend. Feb 08 at the latest. Wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner.

If you can't see the issues, read the latest OECD report on Ireland. We may have just signed our financial death warrants last Thursday folks.

Exports are down overall, and we are being heavily criticized for our lack of skills, we have a shortage of main skills for ICT, Science, (particularly biomedical, food and Biotech). And the numbers of these graduates is declining, rather than increasing, due in part to reduced class sizes, but also due in part to the "living off the state" creed.

We are also cutting our own throats with our silly rates of inflation. FF? No thank you. Expect the downturn to worsen in the coming weeks and months. Perhaps not total recession, but quite a bad downturn.

FF didn't invent, sustain or help the Celtic Tiger. They starved it, mutilated it, and raped it to death. We just signed off on how much we enjoy their incompetence. Well done, all.

gandalf

Here are a few links to check up from the OECD site.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/6/15/20213230.pdf

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/28/47/36204794.pdf

http://www.oecd.org/ireland

&#231

&#231 wrote: »

Therefore, EVERYTHING should be done by the government to make voting easier. if that means holding peoples hands through the process, then you know what, so be it.

Simplest thing to do then would be to make voting compulsary like in a lot of countries.

daveirl

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