We heart corruption

The Muppet

Aedh Baclamh wrote:

Wait a minute, I can't complain about the Government if I didn't bother to vote? New one to me to be honest. Say there was no candiate I wished to vote for?

Say so on your voting paper.

you can have no valid complaint about an election outcome if you can't be bothered to vote.

gandalf

I have no sympathy for people who didn't check the registry, went to vote and found they weren't listed. I am extremely worried by those who claim they were on the registry but weren't on the lists in the polling station. That warrants an investigation and if the problem was widespread then someones head should roll.

Cake Fiend

Tristrame wrote:

Simplest thing to do then would be to make voting compulsary like in a lot of countries.

Hmm, not sure whether it would be better or worse to have another few hundred thousand people who haven't a notion about politics descending on our ballot offices.

Crash

As much as love to make a questionnaire mandatory to vote - i.e. "can you name the parties in ireland, can you prove you've even looked up any info on the candidates in your area etc.", compulsory voting would be what i'd most like to see. However alongside mandatory voting you need to increase polling time to two days, have serious information programmes based around the workings of PR-STV, and other changes in it to ensure that if people understand the basis behind it all.

oh, and make sure people understand how to spoil their vote

luckat

Maybe it's a good thing if people who don't care enough to pull out all the stops to get to the polls *can't* vote?

What about all those people who like to consider themselves Irish citizens, but consider their taxable money citizen of another (non-tax-paying) country. Maybe they shouldn't be able to vote either?

In the Philippines, you have to pay tax there if you're a citizen, even if you live abroad! You won't be let back in, otherwise.

Crash

To be honest, the three ideals within my mind to be registered to vote within this country would be:

1. PPS number
2. Registered to having paid or be in a position to be Payable for tax within the last x years (still not sure about this - important issues as to how long ago those who paid tax would be allowed vote - imo 5 years)
3. Irish/UK born.

a working system, allowing an overseas vote of those who have paid tax within this country.

nlgbbbblth

Blackjack wrote:

Have elections for the Dáil ever taken place on a day other than a thursday?. Anyone have that info?

1973 Wednesday
1977 Thursday
1981 Thursday
1982 (February) Thursday
1982 (November) Wednesday
1987 Tuesday
1989 Thursday
1992 Wednesday
1997 Friday
2002 Friday

Lennoxschips

1. PPS number
2. Registered to having paid or be in a position to be Payable for tax within the last x years (still not sure about this - important issues as to how long ago those who paid tax would be allowed vote - imo 5 years)
3. Irish/UK born.

don't agree with your third point. don't you mean irish/british citizens? place of birth and nationality are two different things.

as for your second point, my grandmother is in her late 80s and hasn't paid tax since the 1940s.
you could also have 18 year olds who have not yet gotten around to paying tax and are therefore not yet on the books as having paid it. or very rich people who have simply never worked a day in their lives.

a working system, allowing an overseas vote of those who have paid tax within this country.

have to agree with that. irish citizens who reside abroad yet do taxable irish work may not vote, yet irish citizens who reside in ireland and pay tax abroad (monte carlo etc) can vote. either give both groups the vote or neither.

Crash

Hence the second point being paid tax or in a position to be payable for tax. I know its only this year i've actually had to start paying tax, but prior to this i've been in a position to possibly pay it, depending on my income. ok, that point has to be worked out further, but I hope you get what I intended

also for point 3, I meant along the current vote system - rather Irish/UK passports or citizenship. its late me sleepy sorry for the mistakes.

and my point would be that even if someone isnt currently doing taxable work within this country, the fact that they have been resident and have paid tax to support the system means they deserve a right to decide its future.

Zaph

All EU nationals, not just British, residing in this country to vote (maybe with conditions on length of residency) should have the right. If a person from Poland or wherever is paying tax here, they have a right to have a say in who spends their money. Similarly all Irish citizens abroad should be allowed to vote. We're one of the few countries that doesn't allow this and it's a disgrace.

McSandwich

gandalf wrote:

I am extremely worried by those who claim they were on the registry but weren't on the lists in the polling station. That warrants an investigation and if the problem was widespread then someones head should roll.

I heard on the news that, in Clare alone, something like 1000 voter discovered they weren't on the register on arrival at polling stations. I believe these were voters who hadn't changed address and were not notified that they were removed from the electoral register. I would be surprised if cases like this go unchallenged. I'd love to know how that €12m was spent..

Crash

The only issue with abroad votes is where should they be put, to be honest.

Zaph

As in which constituencies they should count for? Simple, the constiuency you currently have your Irish residence in, or based on your last address in Ireland. Obviously there are individuals who have Irish passports but have never lived here, Jack Charlton's football squad for instance, and maybe they could have one TD set aside for them, or if numbers aren't that significant that one seat could represent all Irish voting abroad.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

What a load of utter rubbish.

Nice polite debating there tristame.

The electoral register was approximately 3 million people this year and was bigger than 2002 when you account for the population growth.

I suppose you can explain why Dick Roche spent 12 million of tax payers money on 'sorting out the register' if the purpose wasn't to remove duplicate registrations.
(oh yeah, that was another government program that was an absolute and complete failure, as was expected)

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Nice polite debating there tristame.

Well it is utter rubbish what you stated ie that there were less people on the register this time round accounting for the higher turn out.
What do you expect me to say?

I suppose you can explain why Dick Roche spent 12 million of tax payers money on 'sorting out the register' if the purpose wasn't to remove duplicate registrations.
(oh yeah, that was another government program that was an absolute and complete failure, as was expected)

I wouldn't say it was an abject failure.Theres no accounting for peoples inability to check in time that they are on the register.
Unless you had the unrealistic expectation that the strangers calling to peoples doors would get everything absolutely right.

I know I checked to see if I was still on the register and I was and I got my sister on to it in time for the election.
Perhaps you are in favour of some sort of orwellian society and you want everything done for you?

CerebralCortex

spudington16 wrote:

We also heart a thriving economy, and a diverse society. Get with the programme.

We don't have a diverse society we drink and consume and that was reflected in how we voted. Majority rules I guess.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Well it is utter rubbish what you stated ie that there were less people on the register this time round accounting for the higher turn out.
What do you expect me to say?

I expect you to interpret what I say properly. I never said there were less people on the register, I said that duplicate votes had been removed (or were supposed to have been) which would mean that even if the exact same proportion of valid votes had been cast, the voter turnout figures would be higher.
Can i expect an apology?

I wouldn't say it was an abject failure.Theres no accounting for peoples inability to check in time that they are on the register.

Now that's rubbish. If someone is being removed from the register at a certain address, there should have automatically been a letter sent out to that address informing that person that the change was being made (in enough time for the individual to correct the mistake) Simply telling people to 'check the register' is not good enough.

Perhaps you are in favour of some sort of orwellian society and you want everything done for you?

No, when the state unilaterally removes someone from the register, they should inform the voter of what they have done, and not expect the voter to go around checking up in libraries (my local library didn't even have an updated register available to look at) or poorly designed websites

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

I expect you to interpret what I say properly. I never said there were less people on the register, I said that duplicate votes had been removed (or were supposed to have been) which would mean that even if the exact same proportion of valid votes had been cast, the voter turnout figures would be higher.
Can i expect an apology?

No

You said...

The increased turnout in this election might have a lot to do with the purging of the electoral register. Lots of duplicate registrations were removed so even if the same number of people voted, it will look like there was a higher turnout.

I said

The electoral register was approximately 3 million people this year and was bigger than 2002

Do the maths.

Now that's rubbish. If someone is being removed from the register at a certain address, there should have automatically been a letter sent out to that address informing that person that the change was being made (in enough time for the individual to correct the mistake) Simply telling people to 'check the register' is not good enough.

It's the way it works,it's the way it was set up.There were no provisions for letters to be sent.

No, when the state unilaterally removes someone from the register, they should inform the voter of what they have done, and not expect the voter to go around checking up in libraries (my local library didn't even have an updated register available to look at) or poorly designed websites

The state per say didnt remove them-individuals did on behalf of the state.
If you have a problem with human error, then take it up with the individual register checkers.

gandalf

I think you are all losing sight of the main problems here.

The first is the cleanup of the registry. 12million wasted on another FF botch job. Who will lose their job over this. Dick Roche should be a permanent back bencher after this cock up.

The second is where people did check they were on the registry and then subsequently when they went to vote were not on the list. Why did this happen? Will there be legal consequences to this? Was their removal a cock up or something more sinister?

If I was one of the people who were part of the second group I would be livid and I would be considering legal action. I take my voting rights as a citizen of Ireland very seriously and I have never missed an opportunity to vote.

Marcais

gandalf wrote:

I think you are all losing sight of the main problems here.

The first is the cleanup of the registry. 12million wasted on another FF botch job. Who will lose their job over this. Dick Roche should be a permanent back bencher after this cock up.

The second is where people did check they were on the registry and then subsequently when they went to vote were not on the list. Why did this happen? Will there be legal consequences to this? Was their removal a cock up or something more sinister?

If I was one of the people who were part of the second group I would be livid and I would be considering legal action. I take my voting rights as a citizen of Ireland very seriously and I have never missed an opportunity to vote.

Roche has bought enough votes in Wicklow to give him the same (enviromentally hazardous!) Teflon coating as his leader. Good news for Fine Gael in Wicklow with 2 seats but bad news for Wicklow as they now have 2 FF and 2 FG TDs who will continue the unholy alliance with developers. Goodbye to Charlesland Golf Club and much green area.

jmayo

nesf wrote:

I don't think I'd describe Japan's bubble and more importantly it's overall economic situation at the time as being similar to Ireland's at the moment. Two quite different kettles of fish when you get down to the brass tacks of it.

nesf, yeah we are much different to Japan.
We are in a much worse situation. After all I don't think we have a Sony, Toyoat, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Corp. Do we?
What have we got, jobs provided by foreign multi-nationals that are about to move lower cost bases.

maoleary wrote:

Expect a sudden drop in economic fortune around Feb 08, doubt Bertie has a clue how to stop it, he's just riding the crest of a wave of good fortune that he didn't invent, sustain or help, rather, FF policy has killed the economy, our housing industry is not sustainable and the increase in skilled foreign workers with English as a fluent feather in their caps is much too juicy for the MNCs my friend. Feb 08 at the latest. Wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner.

If you can't see the issues, read the latest OECD report on Ireland. We may have just signed our financial death warrants last Thursday folks.

Exports are down overall, and we are being heavily criticized for our lack of skills, we have a shortage of main skills for ICT, Science, (particularly biomedical, food and Biotech). And the numbers of these graduates is declining, rather than increasing, due in part to reduced class sizes, but also due in part to the "living off the state" creed.

We are also cutting our own throats with our silly rates of inflation. FF? No thank you. Expect the downturn to worsen in the coming weeks and months. Perhaps not total recession, but quite a bad downturn.

FF didn't invent, sustain or help the Celtic Tiger. They starved it, mutilated it, and raped it to death. We just signed off on how much we enjoy their incompetence. Well done, all.

How true.
maoleary, have you ever noticed where you give this synopsis of the Irish economy and most of the posters ignore it or else slate it as pessimistic and that everything is fine.
I believe people do not want to hear the truth, else they might get a little worried about their 40 year mortgage for their overpriced future negative equity in some commuter town.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

No

It's the way it works,it's the way it was set up.There were no provisions for letters to be sent.

Once again, the 'neutral' Tristame gives excuses for FF ministers incompetence, and implies that it's everyone else's fault.

The state per say didnt remove them-individuals did on behalf of the state.
If you have a problem with human error, then take it up with the individual register checkers.

And again. Who designed the system? who approved the system? who is responsible for the 12 million wasted and the incompetent way the job was done?
Everyone but the FF minister.

Lennoxschips

zaph wrote:

As in which constituencies they should count for? Simple, the constiuency you currently have your Irish residence in, or based on your last address in Ireland. Obviously there are individuals who have Irish passports but have never lived here, Jack Charlton's football squad for instance, and maybe they could have one TD set aside for them, or if numbers aren't that significant that one seat could represent all Irish voting abroad.

There are 1.5 million Irish born citizens overseas and another 1.5 million registered Irish citizens/passport holders overseas (mostly the kids of the Irish born). That's 3 million overseas citizens.

I say give the overseas voters a five seater constituency. That's 600,000 people per TD, comparing to about 25,000 per TD in Ireland. We'd have some representation, but it would only be 4% as much as the resident Irish get, in order to take our non-residency into account. I think the Irish overseas would have an invaluable input in the election, having seen how things work in all sorts of different countries around the world. Could be an interesting constituency.

30txsbzmcu2k9w

Yep its a disgrace. Bertie's 'salt of the earth howarya' nonsense won over the auld ones again. 10 years was ridiculous - 15 years of the same is actually unhealty for a country.

Its fairly obvious the younger vote with a bit more cop-on were looking for an alternative.
Of course students were affected and it left a serious dent in the hopes of the opposition - to those who say it only takes 4 minutes for students to vote- dont be daft, many students would have to travel home to vote in their constituency- not convenient, and very-likely impossible in the circumstances

Have to question the intelligence of the majority of this country after that election. Shocking that so many could choose to ignore this chancers dealings.:mad:

daveirl

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daveirl

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mickoneill30

Lennoxschips wrote:

I think the Irish overseas would have an invaluable input in the election, having seen how things work in all sorts of different countries around the world. Could be an interesting constituency.

I disagree. As somebody who has lived abroad for 5 years (returned last year) you lose touch with what's happening in politics back home. I was living in Australia and I had a largish group of Irish friends / workmates there. Politics is something we discussed a fair bit but it was Australian politics. It's hard to keep up to date with what's happening in a different country when it's not that relevant to you.
If I was able to vote when abroad I would have but it would have been for the same guys I always voted for before.

mickoneill30

Corbin Jealous Hatchback wrote:

Of course students were affected and it left a serious dent in the hopes of the opposition - to those who say it only takes 4 minutes for students to vote- dont be daft, many students would have to travel home to vote in their constituency- not convenient, and very-likely impossible in the circumstances

Have you read the rest of this thread. I won't repeat what has been said many times before about postal votes. Usual crap about people not taking responsibility for their own actions. It's always someone elses fault.

Corbin Jealous Hatchback wrote:

Have to question the intelligence of the majority of this country after that election. Shocking that so many could choose to ignore this chancers dealings.

I'd have to question the intelligence of all these students that couldn't figure out how to do a postal vote. It's not like it's a secret and a lot of them did figure it out.

Zaph

Lennoxschips wrote:

There are 1.5 million Irish born citizens overseas and another 1.5 million registered Irish citizens/passport holders overseas (mostly the kids of the Irish born). That's 3 million overseas citizens.

I say give the overseas voters a five seater constituency. That's 600,000 people per TD, comparing to about 25,000 per TD in Ireland. We'd have some representation, but it would only be 4% as much as the resident Irish get, in order to take our non-residency into account. I think the Irish overseas would have an invaluable input in the election, having seen how things work in all sorts of different countries around the world. Could be an interesting constituency.

I didn't realise the numbers eligible to vote were that high. In that case I agree with you, a separate 5-seater would be a good idea, with the seats taken from other constituencies as part of a review of our parliamentary over-representation.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Once again, the 'neutral' Tristame

Carefull there Sir.I'm entitled to give a view without you attacking me.Whats more I gave perfectly good mathematical reasons for why your post on the turn out didnt make sense and you've came back with a personal attack.

gives excuses for FF ministers incompetence, and implies that it's everyone else's fault.

Regarding the electoral check? What do you expect any minister of any hue to do? Go out himself and follow the people on the ground all day to make sure they have it 100% correct? Please...!

And again. Who designed the system? who approved the system? who is responsible for the 12 million wasted and the incompetent way the job was done?
Everyone but the FF minister.

Well I don't agree that you could say it was ENTIRELY the ministers fault given that the time frame to do the check was so short.I also don't agree that you can blanket condemn the electoral check unless you have a significant problem.
No matter what check you do you are not going to get it 100% accurate you are relying on human error.
Remember the check was carried out in the first place in response to the media highlighting what a ridiculous state the register was in prior to the check.
Secondly the deadline was extended for the check to continue.
I've no doubt that all Dáil members will now press for a further examination of the register assuming that we wont have to rush it prior to the election.

And While I'm here,most of that money was spent in this country so it actually contributed to the economy when the register checkers spent it in their local shops etc ...but hey I'd expect that to be lost on you as you dont agree with capitalism in the first place from your other many posts on that subject do you