FG leadership contest?

E92

The only people I see talking about changing the leadership of Fine Gael are those who DO NOT support Fine Gael. That says a lot really.

nesf

E92 wrote:

The only people I see talking about changing the leadership of Fine Gael are those who DO NOT support Fine Gael. That says a lot really.

That doesn't answer my question which I think it is a fair one regardless of who I do and do not support.

E92

Perhaps this might explain why there should not and hopefully will not be a change of leadership in Fine Gael. Enda wants to stay on in any case.

E92 wrote:

Enda will still be the unquestioned leader of Fine Gael, despite John Deasys best efforts today. What has he to resign about? Why would you resign when your party has gained almost 20 seats,or increased the representation in the Dáil by 64%? Of course its very disappointing that the likelihood is that FG will be in opposition for another 5 years, but Thursday was still a very good day for Fine Gael. Clearly FF held steady, but the party that was supposed to be on its death bed by now increased its vote by 5% compared to 5 years ago.

E92 wrote:

A lot of FG people credit Enda for the fact that FG has increased its Dáil representation by 64%, and increased its vote by 5%. Cowen would make a better Taoiseach, but he wont have the same appeal Bertie had IMO, I feel that while Bertie is a complete waffler, he comes across much better than Cowen, who is quite like Michael Mc Dowell in the way he comes across(arrogant, unexciting, a bit of a bully), and ultimately Bertie saved FFs arses for this election.

nesf

E92 wrote:

Perhaps this might explain why there should not and hopefully will not be a change of leadership in Fine Gael. Enda wants to stay on in any case.

Again, not what I was asking about. I'm not saying that Enda should immediately resign, I'm just curious if people who think he should definitely stay think that he has ten good years left in him for obvious reasons. The leadership question has to be as much about what will be able to do as what he has done imho.

bemmet

Yep ,he will be more ready alright in 5 years time.
As the great man Prince Enda said during the campaign ,"its harder leading the opposition than the government you know".

he will be ready alright!

E92

I think that in 5 years time assuming he stays on he will have gained a lot more experience, will be more convincing in the media,(remember what Enda was like 3 or 4 years ago at public speech?), and he will have visited the consitiuencies a few more times, will have shaken more hands etc. Remember Enda is at his best when it comes to meeting people on the street in terms of his ability to come across well with the electorate. Therefore no need to get rid of him.

nesf

But in five years he needs to stand before the electorate and say I'll lead the country for five years. He'll have to be able to commit to that and convince the people of it which is the crux of the matter.

Irish Wolf

Yup... there's no doubt that he's done a good job in bringing back the seats that FG lost in 2002 but I don't think he's really got the charisma to bring FG into leadership of the country... but there are very few members of the FG party that have that ability.

It's been said that Brian Cowen won the election for FF - I find him extremely arroggant and dismissive but nonetheless he can actually argue the toss... the same can be said of Willie O'Dea and Dermot Ahern.

It seems to me that rather than holding stock in a particulaer leader - you need the people in back up to get the message accross... Richard Bruton can do it but once you take him out of the picture there seems to be very little coming up through FG's ranks...

So while I don't think there's an immediate need for an FG leadership change, I similarly don't think Enda Kenny should lead them into the next election (unless it's in the next couple of weeks). They really need to get more big gun high profile spokes people.

E92

Well the election has brought in some fresh new talent for the party, people like Lucinda Creighton, Leo Varadkar etc, and there were some notable additions who lost out the last time like Brian Hayes, Alan Shatter and I would expect that we will hear a lot more from people like these in terms of media appearances etc. Maybe in 1 or 2 years time there might be a change, but having a leader that is a good media performer is not necessarily a recepie for sucess, I mean people love to hear what Pat Rabbitte has to say but they dont vote for his party do they? As I have already said I see no reason why Fine Gael should get rid of Enda. I think we will go down the tubes if we get rid of him.

At Irishwolf next time around there wont be Bertie, he said he would go at 60, which will be before the election in 5 years time, it will be a contest of Enda vs Brian Cowen, so that will be a much closer contest I would imagine, FF will not have the 'man of the people' status with their new leader. As I said Bertie saved FF arses this time, and the PDs acted as the lightning conductor for the failings of the Government. They would never have done so well were Brian Cowen at the helm at the moment. I know for instance from some FF people I know, that when voters were complaining about health etc they simply told those people that that was all the fault of the PDs and still vote for FF.

The Muppet

Sully wrote:

A true FF speaker eh!

Well, FG have improved a LOT in this election and you nor anyone else can deny that. Sure they didnt replace Bertie but it was looking that way for the majority of the polls. They didnt get elected for minor reasons, but they got a nice seat gain.

PDs died. Thanks to FF if you ask me.

Lets see what happens in 5 years time. FG/Labour may well have a good chance. Unless you know something we dont?

Let's be frank , FG didn't get near FF in fact they didn't even recover all the ground they lost in the previous election.

gandalf

The Muppet wrote:

Let's be frank , FG didn't get near FF in fact they didn't even recover all the ground they lost in the previous election.

Well given I thought they were "Pd'ed" after the last election I think Kenny has to be commended getting FG back to that position.

mike65

Enda Kenny will be 61 in 5 years time. Might that fact alone count against him?

Mike.

InFront

Enda Kenny won't be up against Bertie Ahern next time. That he came this close to victory against one of the most charismatic, most untouchable men in the country is an amazing feat. He has turned Fine Gael around 180 degrees.

He doesn't even need to gain any new seats anymore. If Labour and the Greens improve upon their performance in 2012 and FF lose seats, Kenny is Taoiseach.

InFront

InFront wrote:

He doesn't even need to gain any new seats anymore. If Labour and the Greens improve upon their performance in 2012 and FF lose seats, Kenny is Taoiseach.

Labour I don't know.
They really do have to re examine where they are at.
They gained no seats numbers wise this time.
Kenny did a wonderfull job reversing the slump of 02 but he didnt pull all the seats back that were lost then.
FG should really worry about that fact because realistically they should have trumped the steadiness in the FF support if the mood for change was as strong as let on.It wasn't.
They should have got closer to 60 seats.
They did well in my own constituency gaining a seat that used be mildred foxes but a lot of her votes were what I'd have considered FG gene pool anyway even though she was FF gene pool.

bemmet

As previously stated ,he will be 61 when the next election comes.
Do you really believe that the nation will go for that ?

A taoiseach ,who never held one of the strategic portfolios ,and whom will be drawing the old age pension before his tenure would be complete.
Now that would be a radical vision for the future alright!

Face it guys ,he had had his chance and blew it .

The Muppet

gandalf wrote:

Well given I thought they were "Pd'ed" after the last election I think Kenny has to be commended getting FG back to that position.

I think a lot of circumstance favoured FG this time. FF were ripe for picking and Enda is the primary reason it didin't happen . I wouldn't be sure that the publics opinion of Enda will change over the next five years. IMO It is also unlikely that Labour will enter into a similar pact with FG next time and the news media will be a lot more careful about their reporting. This election was Enda's best oppertunity and he didn't grasp it.

DeepBlue

It's amusing that a lot of obvious FF heads are so interested in the FG leadership contest .

It's a lot harder to regain seats that are lost than it is to retain them. The fact that FG didn't regain all the seats they lost in '02 isn't the issue - the fact that they nearly managed to do so is remarkable.

However there is a lot of anti-FF votes out there. IMO this anti-FF vote is just as irrational as the "I'll always vote for FF" vote. FG hoovered up all the anti-FF vote because they were the only party guaranteed not to go into Government with FF.
Towards the latter end of the campaign it could be seen that a vote for the PDs was a vote for FF and a vote for Labour could easily be a vote for FF. Even a vote for Sinn Fein could have been a vote for FF.

However that anti-FF vote isn't bound to any party and can easily defect to any other party. The next round of opinion polls will be interesting whenever they are held.

One other point - I can't see an FF/Labour or the more likely FF/Green Govenment lasting a full five years. It would be surprising if it did. We could easily see another election in two or three years.

Sully

So I think my earlier comment was addressed, so I wont go about repeating what was already said.

As for the age of Enda... Its a tough one, but maybe we will see him retire just before the election? Who knows.

I also think that Enda cant be blamed for not getting FG into government. It was a close call, and was a very good election for them. As a FF supporter said to me "Rome wasnt built in a day" - I apply the same principal to FG. They cant turn around over night, gain lots of seats and get elected at the same time.

For FG, this general election was very good and did a LOT for the partys chances. They need to reflect on this election and see what went wrong and where they need to improve on to get into government.

E92

Of course FG still have some distance to go, but what we have now is a party much more motivated now than 5 years ago; 5 years ago the party was demoralised. But the fact that Fine Gael almost recovered its losses from 97 is a huge comfort to the party. The reality is that as regards the 'alliance for change' Fine Gael did its bit, increasing its reporesentation by 19 seats in the Dáil, had Labour and the Greens even increased their seats by 3 each there would be a change of Government. Enda has already said that Fine Gael he has identified target gains for Fine Gael next time round already. Off the top of my head I imagine that that is reference to Cork North West, Kildare South, Dún Laoghaire, Louth and others. The local elections will prove to be an excellent guide as to where FG can gain seats, I am sure like they were last time.

gbh

AidoCQS wrote:

You cannot flip/flop from leader to leader at every election, Kenny has developed pedigree from this event.

Agreed...Kenny is a credible leader of Fine Gael, dont let anyone fool you otherwise...Fianna Fail were rattled in this election by Enda and co and whenever they get rattled by someone they try to get that person removed...in any event i dont think Bertie will see out 2007 as leader of Fianna Fail....

jjbrien

bemmet wrote:

As previously stated ,he will be 61 when the next election comes.
Do you really believe that the nation will go for that ?

A taoiseach ,who never held one of the strategic portfolios ,and whom will be drawing the old age pension before his tenure would be complete.
Now that would be a radical vision for the future alright!

Face it guys ,he had had his chance and blew it .

Enda Kenny did not blow it. He led the party to regain what we had lost. Enda Kenny will still be there at the next election and beyond that. There is another great example in the north Paisley is very old but a very good leader. I think Enda Kenny will go for another 10 years and if theres a contest hes got my vote. Forget Deasy he is going no where fast.

bemmet

jjbrien wrote:

Enda Kenny did not blow it. He led the party to regain what we had lost. Enda Kenny will still be there at the next election and beyond that. There is another great example in the north Paisley is very old but a very good leader. I think Enda Kenny will go for another 10 years and if theres a contest hes got my vote. Forget Deasy he is going no where fast.

I REST MY CASE.
LOOK AT WHO IS NOW BEING CHOSEN AS THE LEADER TO EMULATE!!!

YOU WIN GUYS-- BUT BE CAREFUL ,SMOKING THAT STUFF HAS LONG TERM EFFECTS ON YOUR BRAINS!

Ruen

If there was a contest Richard Bruton would be the winner by a mile sure even now he has more government experience than Enda kenny. But I doubt there would be a contest especially because Enda Kenny has brought his party from a 31 seat party to 51 which is a success IMO.

jmayo

Enda should stay and if there is a change of leadership down the road i believe Richard Bruton would be the best option.
Next election there will be no ould salt Bertie "one of us" going on and also the reason a lot voted for this government, the economy, will not be in such a so-called healthy state.

It is a pity that Mairead McGuinness did not get elected. She would definetly be an addition on a front bench or as primary spokesperson.

Regarding Deasey he opens his mouth every so often just to exchange feet.

jjbrien

bemmet wrote:

I REST MY CASE.
LOOK AT WHO IS NOW BEING CHOSEN AS THE LEADER TO EMULATE!!!

YOU WIN GUYS-- BUT BE CAREFUL ,SMOKING THAT STUFF HAS LONG TERM EFFECTS ON YOUR BRAINS!

What? I did not say anybody who is been emulated. Enda Kenny is is own man and leader. He is a republician and we are a republican party at heart. We still cling on to the hope the Ireland one day will be united once the ecomonic situation in the north is right and when the people of Nothern Ireland want to be part of a united Ireland we will be happy to do it.

E92

jmayo wrote:

It is a pity that Mairead McGuinness did not get elected. She would definetly be an addition on a front bench or as primary spokesperson.

Agreed 100%. She was the one person I really wanted to see elected to the 30th Dáil. Well I suppose we'll still have her for the Euros in 2 years time, and a warning to all Blueshirt members/supporters in Leinster FF are after that seat big time. They're after Mary Lou's seat in Dublin too, and they can have it all they want. You wont find me complaining about FF stealing SF seats.

As for being republican, I never want to be associated with the term and I dont believe that Fine Gael is in anyway republican.
However the official name of Fine Gael is 'Fine Gael - The United Ireland Party' AFAIK.

The difference with Fine Gael and the national question is that we actually respect the decision of the people of Northern Ireland to wish to remain part of the United Kingdom, and don't try to force them to 'surrender'. That whole thing called democracy you know. When they are ready we are ready.

jjbrien

E92 wrote:

Agreed 100%. She was the one person I really wanted to see elected to the 30th Dáil. Well I suppose we'll still have her for the Euros in 2 years time, and a warning to all Blueshirt members/supporters in Leinster FF are after that seat big time. They're after Mary Lou's seat in Dublin too, and they can have it all they want. You wont find me complaining about FF stealing SF seats.

As for being republican, I never want to be associated with the term and I dont believe that Fine Gael is in anyway republican.
However the official name of Fine Gael is 'Fine Gael - The United Ireland Party' AFAIK.

The difference with Fine Gael and the national question is that we actually respect the decision of the people of Northern Ireland to wish to remain part of the United Kingdom, and don't try to force them to 'surrender'. That whole thing called democracy you know. When they are ready we are ready.

You put into words exactly what I ment. Unfortunetly the term republican has become an unsavory one. We in Fine Gael will welcome the desision of the people of Notheren Ireland we will support them no matter what they choose.

nesf

E92 wrote:

However the official name of Fine Gael is 'Fine Gael - The United Ireland Party' AFAIK.

Not really, Fine translates as tribe, group or people and Gael is self explanatory. You could translate it as (very roughly) the People of Ireland party or Family or Tribe of the Irish.

One could associate that idea with a "United Ireland" but you'd taking it as a metaphor and twisting it a fair bit to make it fit literally if you know what I mean.

Dandesav

nesf wrote:

Not really, Fine translates as tribe, group or people and Gael is self explanatory. You could translate it as (very roughly) the People of Ireland party or Family or Tribe of the Irish.

One could associate that idea with a "United Ireland" but you'd taking it as a metaphor and twisting it a fair bit to make it fit literally if you know what I mean.

They don't mean that Fine Gael translates as 'The United Ireland Party'.
The full name of the party is 'Fine Gael- the United Ireland Party', just like the full name of FF is 'Fianna Fáil- the Republican Party'.

Regarding the meaning of the word 'Republican', I think it's such a shame that in Ireland it is associated with violent nationalism.
I would consider myself to be a Republican in the true sense of the word- ie. supporting the idea that everybody is equal. That nobody is superior to anybody else based on birthright and that all the people elect their Heads of State and Government to serve them, the people. I see the State as something set up by the people to look after their best interests, not as something set up by a King or Queen to look after their 'subjects'.

Ruen

Dandesav wrote:

They don't mean that Fine Gael translates as 'The United Ireland Party'.
The full name of the party is 'Fine Gael- the United Ireland Party', just like the full name of FF is 'Fianna Fáil- the Republican Party'.

Regarding the meaning of the word 'Republican', I think it's such a shame that in Ireland it is associated with violent nationalism.
I would consider myself to be a Republican in the true sense of the word- ie. supporting the idea that everybody is equal. That nobody is superior to anybody else based on birthright and that all the people elect their Heads of State and Government to serve them, the people. I see the State as something set up by the people to look after their best interests, not as something set up by a King or Queen to look after their 'subjects'.

Here here, Its just a pity that the great Republic we proclaim to have never actually materialised since independence. I'm a republican but don't mistake that to mean I'm a Shinner, wouldnt vote for them if they had a gun to my head(or kneecaps:D...sorry, bad joke) or a terrorist. I believe in the French style republic, Liberté, égalité, fraternité and that's what James Connolly and the rest of our great heroes fought and died for.