FG leadership contest?

nesf

Dandesav wrote:

They don't mean that Fine Gael translates as 'The United Ireland Party'.
The full name of the party is 'Fine Gael- the United Ireland Party', just like the full name of FF is 'Fianna Fáil- the Republican Party'.

Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted the dash.

AidoCQS

bemmet wrote:

Good question re Endas leadership.

By the time ...-almost ready to draw the pension

Mind you it will be a difficult search !

This sounds like ageism, do we have issues with our senior citizens? You should not, they do most of the voting in this country

FF want FG to flip flop on leadership, FF are going to be very vulnerable here in the next election, I mean have you seen Spliffo?

Bertie (the most Cunning...etc.) has groomed somebody for the role, that is lets face it - the least practical for that role, he did that for a reason, he saw the problems the past few leaders had in leadership challenges, so he decided to put a minister of finance in position that nobody in their right mind would even suggest was a credible alternative to Bertie.

You also keep looking at the leadership debate as it was a Even steven contest, the media billed it as such, for ratings sake, but it was not - it was David and Goliath and David did leave the battlefield unmarked.

The Economy and the incumbent position that Bertie had, made him the Goliath, neither will be there next time

jjbrien

AidoCQS wrote:

This sounds like ageism, do we have issues with our senior citizens? You should not, they do most of the voting in this country

FF want FG to flip flop on leadership, FF are going to be very vulnerable here in the next election, I mean have you seen Spliffo?

Bertie (the most Cunning...etc.) has groomed somebody for the role, that is lets face it - the least practical for that role, he did that for a reason, he saw the problems the past few leaders had in leadership challenges, so he decided to put a minister of finance in position that nobody in their right mind would even suggest was a credible alternative to Bertie.

You also keep looking at the leadership debate as it was a Even steven contest, the media billed it as such, for ratings sake, but it was not - it was David and Goliath and David did leave the battlefield unmarked.

The Economy and the incumbent position that Bertie had, made him the Goliath, neither will be there next time

Agreed Brian Cowan would not make a good leader and in no time in FF people would be trying to overthrow him. They have got Mary O'Rouke back but she has been in the seanate for the past 5 years we will have to see what Bertie does with her.

As for FG there will be no leadership contest Enda Kenny is very welly liked in the party and by the next election will have improved his TV inmage. If you remeber back he was not very good on TV when he first was elected leader of FG. But as time went on he got better and better. He learnt alot of this election and as you all know Bertie said he will retire by the nect election when hes 60. So Enda would be the most credible person to be Taoiseach in the peoples minds. Also the way people are prediciting the economy to be weak in the next 5 years will with do doubth chnage the goverment. We are begining to see the downturn in the construction industry my cousin works in the industry and his comapny are closing down after 15 years of success.

bemmet

Dream on re Cowan.

magill voted him "outstanding dail performer " year after year .
You admit that Aherne was a goliath after the election ,yet before it he was taken for granted and no predictions showed FF on more than 70 seats .

It might not for that matter be Cowen thats leader .Unlike many other parties , there are a number of significant and credible alternatives.

All of whom would have the ability to decimate the wobbling to bus pass 61 year old enda in the next election ..

K-9

Cowen performed very well for FF in the last week of the campaign and decided that FF needed to go on the attack on policies which didn't add up. Bertie did the same on the debate. Kenny while holding his own, did very poorly on backing up his policies.

FG are stuck with Kenny though. John Bruton was more likeable than Richard. After that there doesn't seem to be any alternative. Hayes maybe and of course the very likeable Lucinda and Olwyn .

FG seem to have a serious lack of leadership candidates in the 40/50's age bracket. Kenny will do well in the next election if FG avoid the smugness that came into their campaign towards the end. The "dream on, baby" and rubbing of hands need to stop :mad:

Cowen would be a good party leader but will he have voter appeal? He did well in the last week of the election and added some substance to the Bertie factor. FF do have creditable alternatives, Martin, Hannafin, Ahern etc.

jjbrien

Seanies32 wrote:

Cowen performed very well for FF in the last week of the campaign and decided that FF needed to go on the attack on policies which didn't add up. Bertie did the same on the debate. Kenny while holding his own, did very poorly on backing up his policies.

FG are stuck with Kenny though. John Bruton was more likeable than Richard. After that there doesn't seem to be any alternative. Hayes maybe and of course the very likeable Lucinda and Olwyn .

FG seem to have a serious lack of leadership candidates in the 40/50's age bracket. Kenny will do well in the next election if FG avoid the smugness that came into their campaign towards the end. The "dream on, baby" and rubbing of hands need to stop :mad:

Cowen would be a good party leader but will he have voter appeal? He did well in the last week of the election and added some substance to the Bertie factor. FF do have creditable alternatives, Martin, Hannafin, Ahern etc.

Cowen during the elction reminded me of Comical Ali the Former Iraqi Information Minister. Each day during the election he would sound off about the oppisition policies were worng when in fact they were correct. On a couple of occasions he got his own figures wrong. He aslo claimed the entire economic success of the country was all down to him this as we know is incorrect it was thr FG/Labour goverment which brough in the tax reforms that created the economy along with the hard work of the irish worker.

K-9

jjbrien wrote:

Cowen during the elction reminded me of Comical Ali the Former Iraqi Information Minister. Each day during the election he would sound off about the oppisition policies were worng when in fact they were correct. On a couple of occasions he got his own figures wrong. He aslo claimed the entire economic success of the country was all down to him this as we know is incorrect it was thr FG/Labour goverment which brough in the tax reforms that created the economy along with the hard work of the irish worker.

Cue FG party political broadcast. Unfortunately FG/Lab only got 37% of the vote. I'm not going to get into party policies on tax but the FF/PD record stands up just as well as FG/Lab.

Cowen had some dodgy moments but there where no FG/Lab ministers in the background waiting to go to the Aras. Richard Bruton/Pat Rabitte where very dodgy at the start of the campaign on tax policies.

Leaving party politics aside something happened in the last week of the campaign to turn a FF electoral meltdown into a very near overall majority. Cowens attack on the alliances tax/health policies definitely made a difference wheras Richard Bruton didn't make as much of an impact

bemmet

jjbrien wrote:

Cowen during the elction reminded me of Comical Ali the Former Iraqi Information Minister. Each day during the election he would sound off about the oppisition policies were worng when in fact they were correct. On a couple of occasions he got his own figures wrong. He aslo claimed the entire economic success of the country was all down to him this as we know is incorrect it was thr FG/Labour goverment which brough in the tax reforms that created the economy along with the hard work of the irish worker.

yep- you have us there JJ. We surrender.
By the time the next election comes to town. FF will have been in power for what will it be,23 out of 25 years ,and you will be still telling us our economy is down to FGs exclusive intervention.

As my granny used to say ,god rest her , "dont mind that poor fellow,he,s away with the fairies "!

Say hello to them for me JJ............

jjbrien

bemmet wrote:

yep- you have us there JJ. We surrender.
By the time the next election comes to town. FF will have been in power for what will it be,23 out of 25 years ,and you will be still telling us our economy is down to FGs exclusive intervention.

As my granny used to say ,god rest her , "dont mind that poor fellow,he,s away with the fairies "!

Say hello to them for me JJ............

Ok I dont stoop to name calling. We are all growen up here. Tell me someting which minster for finace introduced the new corporate tax rate of 12.5% and which goverment was he part of? By the current gov that is if it remains the same came in to office 10 years ago. Before that Cowen was in opposition and before that he was not an important minister. It was an old FF goverment with diffrent ministers.

K-9

That argument didn't win this election, the last one or indeed the one before that. That's right FG haven't been in an elected Govt. in 25 years. Grasping at straws methinks!

FF implemented it but that doesn't matter. Cowen not an important minister? How important was Kenny?

On tax, who introduced the 20% Capital Gains, 20% Income tax, no tax on the minimum wage? FF didn't rely on these achievements, why do FG pull out one from over 10 years ago and actually Ruairi Quinn is claiming that one too.

jjbrien

Seanies32 wrote:

That argument didn't win this election, the last one or indeed the one before that. That's right FG haven't been in an elected Govt. in 25 years. Grasping at straws methinks!

FF implemented it but that doesn't matter. Cowen not an important minister? How important was Kenny?

Rubish FF did not bring it in check your facts. It was brought in by Ruri Quinn then Minster of Finance under the then rainbow goverment. Another thing that was done by them was to introduce free 3rd level education for all which has led to the current ecomic success of today. We could go on all day depating this but I will give you this the FG/Lab goverment gave birth to the celtic tiger and FF rared it for their first 5 years. In the second 5 years it went out of control and now we are seeing the start of the death of the celtic tiger. Hopefully FF can stop the downturn of the ecomony only time will tell.

K-9

jjbrien wrote:

Rubish FF did not bring it in check your facts. It was brought in by Ruri Quinn then Minster of Finance under the then rainbow goverment. Another thing that was done by them was to introduce free 3rd level education for all which has led to the current ecomic success of today. We could go on all day depating this but I will give you this the FG/Lab goverment gave birth to the celtic tiger and FF rared it for their first 5 years. In the second 5 years it went out of control and now we are seeing the start of the death of the celtic tiger. Hopefully FF can stop the downturn of the ecomony only time will tell.

Look, read the post. FF obviously along with the PD's where in Govt. to implement it. They get as much credit as the Rainbow. On the Celtic Tiger you could go back to Ray McSharry/Ahern/Reynolds as Minister for Finances. FF can give credit to FG/Lab on corporation tax yet they can't acknowledge who transformed the economy in the late 80's. I know Dukes backed FF with the Tallaght strategy but the fact remains Dukes/Bruton didn't do it when they where in power.

On the 3rd level fees and this applies to child benefit to, they should be means tested. Noel Dempsey brought this up but unfortunately it's a middle/upper class sacred cow now. The socially disadvantaged did not benefit from this as they had free third level education anyway. In my view these should be means tested for the likes of Michael O'Leary and even Bertie Ahern so that the grant can actually be increased benefiting the disadvantaged.

FF have proven in 1987 and after 9/11 that they can manage the economy through a downturn.

Anyway back on topic, maybe FG should concentrate on bringing radical policies for the next election rather than saying they can run the country just as well as FF. It says alot about the opposition when the 2 most radical policies where FF/PD policies, on health and PRSI. Kenny will not get elected next time unless there is substance to his alliance for change.

horseflesh

It looks to me like Kenny is only FG party leader by default.

"Hey, look it's that Mayo fella, he's been around a while hasn't he?"
"Yeah........should we give him a chance?"
"Sure, why not??"

I don't ever remember hearing of him as anything like a FG shining light in all the years he's been in Dail Eireann.

jjbrien

horseflesh wrote:

It looks to me like Kenny is only FG party leader by default.

"Hey, look it's that Mayo fella, he's been around a while hasn't he?"
"Yeah........should we give him a chance?"
"Sure, why not??"

I don't ever remember hearing of him as anything like a FG shining light in all the years he's been in Dail Eireann.

FG could have picked anybody to be leader there were multiable of names put forward (Richard Bruton, Gay Mitchell etc) but Enda was the one who was picked. He brought the FG party back from the dead to make it a creadable opposition. He guided the party to win the european and local elections. Gained 20 extra seats for the party in the general election. Brought alot og young tds into the dail like Leo Varadkar and Lucinda Creighton. There is now allot of talent in FG and FG is now very much a youthful party. That is why Enda Kenny will remain as leader.

K-9

I'm not saying Kenny shouldn't remain leader but come the next election he'll be in his 60's and I take it there will still be an alliance for change, or a time for change.

Unfortunately, in this day of presidential elections, it could go against him. I know Bob Dole is an exaggeration, but it could go against him.

Also they need to develop more policies and stop being a FF Lite because there's only one winner if that's the case.

I've no doubt Lucinda has great talent but there is a gap in TD's in say their 40's/early 50's that will still be a problem in 5 years time.

jjbrien

Seanies32 wrote:

I'm not saying Kenny shouldn't remain leader but come the next election he'll be in his 60's and I take it there will still be an alliance for change, or a time for change.

Unfortunately, in this day of presidential elections, it could go against him. I know Bob Dole is an exaggeration, but it could go against him.

Also they need to develop more policies and stop being a FF Lite because there's only one winner if that's the case.

I've no doubt Lucinda has great talent but there is a gap in TD's in say their 40's/early 50's that will still be a problem in 5 years time.

I have met Lucinda a few times and I have always been impressed by her. Ok she is the baby of the dail been only 26. She is one of the most energitic people I have ever come accross. She listens to peoples issues and tries to do something about them. She and Leo Varadkar are a new bread of polition in Ireland we are looking forward to some good times ahead. Also with other young T.D's such as Michael D'Arcy and Paul Keogh FG have the most amount of young T.D's in the dail which will appeal to young people at the next election. This will hopefully inspire new candiates to run in every party and give the dail a new lease of life.

Ruen

bemmet wrote:

All of whom would have the ability to decimate the wobbling to bus pass 61 year old enda in the next election ..

For all you know the next election could be in 6 months time:rolleyes:

bemmet

This gets better by the minute.
Enda for Taoiseach next time ,and a cabinet of Lucinda ,Leo ,Keogh and Darcy.
Throw in such experienced and outstanding performers as Coveney,Clune ,Deasy and O mahony and sure the flight can take off.

Think you need to be a bit realistic about how full your cabinet ,or more like cupboard,really is.

jjbrien

bemmet wrote:

This gets better by the minute.
Enda for Taoiseach next time ,and a cabinet of Lucinda ,Leo ,Keogh and Darcy.
Throw in such experienced and outstanding performers as Coveney,Clune ,Deasy and O mahony and sure the flight can take off.Think you need to be a bit realistic about how full your cabinet, or more like cupboard, really is.

Jesus I was not saying they will get anywhere near the cabinet table they don’t have enough experience yet. People like Richard Burton, Olivia Mitchell, Jim O’Keefe, Allen Shatter etc would make very good ministers and yes Paul Keogh would make a good minister by then he will be in his 3rd term in the dail he would at least be a junior minister. FFers think they have a god given right to run Ireland which is just not the case. Should we be making Bertie king of Ireland? :eek:

Just tell me one thing Benment what would be wrong with a change of Goverment?

K-9

jjbrien wrote:

Just tell me one thing Benment what would be wrong with a change of Goverment?

I think FG/Lab should be addressing that because the electorate didn't accept this particular change. That's not FF fault.

Of course no party ideally should be in Govt. for say 23/25 years but not change for changes sake.

If you take in FF/PD's and SF who ruled out the alliance for change, then take an amount of voters who would have voted for Labour and the Greens with no serious dislike of working with FF in Govt. you have over 50% of the electorate.

is_that_so

Seanies32 wrote:

I think FG/Lab should be addressing that because the electorate didn't accept this particular change. That's not FF fault.

Of course no party ideally should be in Govt. for say 23/25 years but not change for changes sake.

If you take in FF/PD's and SF who ruled out the alliance for change, then take an amount of voters who would have voted for Labour and the Greens with no serious dislike of working with FF in Govt. you have over 50% of the electorate.

Decisions on FF have been largely made , either just outside the booth or based on the campaign,the "issues" and the usual me-feineachas. Nothing wrong with that we are human.

It is however overly simplistic and highly presumptuous to cast those not interested in FF as the government as looking for change just for the sake of it. To my mind there were many, many reasons not to choose them notwithstanding the spectre of a government in perpetuity.

It is also overly simplistic to assume that a vote for the Greens or Labour was automatically a vote for FF. I myself did not cast a solitary preference in their direction.

FG, despite their aspirations could only realistically have hoped to recover lost ground, with some minor gains. The electorate were not angry enough with FF to dump them. The other parties of the putative coalition were incapable of delivering the rest.

I also seem to recall that government is for all the people, including the 50% who didn't choose FF.

K-9

is_that_so wrote:

Decisions on FF have been largely made , either just outside the booth or based on the campaign,the "issues" and the usual me-feineachas. Nothing wrong with that we are human.

Agreed, the famous floating voters and of course every party is seeking their votes.

is_that_so wrote:

It is however overly simplistic and highly presumptuous to cast those not interested in FF as the government as looking for change just for the sake of it. To my mind there were many, many reasons not to choose them notwithstanding the spectre of a government in perpetuity.

Granted, but I do think the Greens FF Lite comment did hurt. Obviously because of the FF Lite comment but also that it was an attack on FG/Lab from a party that was more than likely needed for them to be in Govt. Green attacks on FF would have had no real effect because it was to be expected.

is_that_so wrote:

It is also overly simplistic to assume that a vote for the Greens or Labour was automatically a vote for FF. I myself did not cast a solitary preference in their direction.

Thats not what i said, in fact the opposite but there would have been an element of both parties, both voters and members, who would have no substantial objection to going into coalition with FF if that meant either party could get into Govt. All i was saying is if you add those votes to the parties who where pro FF in Govt i.e. PD's & SF you have over 50% of the electorate. My point being that saying FF only got 41/42% is undermining their vote. Enda Kenny is counting the Greens and even the PD's in his figures for Govt. and the PD's did campaign for the current Govt. despite the result.

is_that_so wrote:

FG, despite their aspirations could only realistically have hoped to recover lost ground, with some minor gains. The electorate were not angry enough with FF to dump them. The other parties of the putative coalition were incapable of delivering the rest.

The reason being as you say people thought FF led Govt. was satisfactory, not ideal.

is_that_so wrote:

I also seem to recall that government is for all the people, including the 50% who didn't choose FF.

FF are often criticised for being to amenable to compromise, for trying to appeal to all. Something they get attacked for. The first FF/PD was quite right wing but they have tried to readjust the balance in the last 3/4 years.