Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

cson

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

wasting time learning Irish

Indicative of your attitude as a whole really. You're offering up no new arguments other than the blunt and narrow minded "its useless in real life" rhetoric.

As for not being able to pass OL Irish, grow up, at 17 most students with a bit of application, work and extra help even could pass OL Irish.

Fobia

cson wrote:

As for not being able to pass OL Irish, grow up, at 17 most students with a bit of application, work and extra help even could pass OL Irish.

Certainly, but why should they? Are they going to contribute to this cause the irish lovers are fighting for? Are they going to help save the irish language in any way?

I think you know the answers to those, however, what if they got 5 extra physics classes a week? Would they not be much better physics students? I'd imagine they would. (obviously not specifically physics, any subject of their choice)

SamHamilton

Irish isn't just about learning it for the sake of learning, nor are most Leaving Cert. subjects, although it may seem that way. Personally I despise L.C. Irish but I feel that, through my study of it, I've gained invaluable skills. It's the same with subjects like History and Biology, say. Everyone knows it's just about memorizing information and then regurgitating it on the day but, believe it or not, this is extremely important! Knowledge retention is integral to almost any job and while you might not need to know all you have learned in school when you are doing your future jobs, you will definately need to be able to retain huge amounts of information. The L.C. prepares you for this, though obviously it's neither fun nor student-friendly!

With Irish as well, while some people learn off answers - something I am entirely against but fair enough, each to their own and all that - if one was to study the subject as it is meant to be studied, they would gain great analytical skills through the literature, the grammar etc.

Also, Irish is a subject that isn't terribly difficult to pass. A student in my class came to Ireland three years ago, without a word of Irish, and is now doing honours Irish for the L.C. Yes there is a huge amount of work involved if you are not particularly proficient in the language, but pass Irish (and I think there's foundation as well) is very doable, for anyone.

Plus, French is needed for the majority of third level colleges, universities, and although most of use won't be speaking French everyday, the fact that it is a requirement shows the importance placed on the skills gained from learning a language.

But see thats just stupid.What if someone doesn't feel like wasting time learning Irish, and instead spends the time studying other subjects.So the LC comes around they do quite well (400+) but fail pass Irish.So you're saying that just because that student can't pass Irish, they're not smart enough toget into college?See its just mad.

If someone wants their course bad enough they will put the time in and concentrate on their weaker subjects. I got a D in Art at Christmas and then found a course I wanted to do with high enough points so I worked and got a B in the mocks. I think it's fair that someone who really wants their course and works for it gets it before the person who expects to be rewarded for being lazy and immature and refusing to work at the subject they're in risk of failing.


So, I think Irish should be mandatory. By studying Irish you gain valuable skills, it's quite an easy subject to pass and hard work does = better grades and points.

Enemy Of Fate

JC 2K3 wrote:

Why not just have Irish mandatory for the sake of promoting our native language? It's only "forced" upon us until we're 18.

Its not so much the fact that its mandatory that bothers me.Its the fact that its NEEDED to get into 3 rd level education.That SHOULD be abolished, and theres not really any great reason for it being there.At the very least universities should accept a pass in foundation level Irish (they accept a pass in foundation level maths, so why not Irish?), and thats at the very least.

cson wrote:

Indicative of your attitude as a whole really. You're offering up no new arguments other than the blunt and narrow minded "its useless in real life" rhetoric.

And you're offering no other arguments than ''its part of our culture, people should just do it, its not that hard anyways''.It may be part of our history and culture, but that doesn't mean we should still have to do it.Hey Ireland used to a poor, backwards argriculturial country that was ruled by the British empire.Does that mean we should all go out, be farmers, earn next to nothing for hours of back-breaking work and then walk past the RIC barracks on the way back from harvesting hay?No.It doesn't.

cson wrote:

As for not being able to pass OL Irish, grow up, at 17 most students with a bit of application, work and extra help even could pass OL Irish.

BUT THATS NOT THE ****ING POINT!!!The time spent learning on Irish could be spent on another subject, that would benefit from the extra work.Why should it be wasted on Irish, which will never be used after the LC?And don't say ''well most LC subjects won't be used after the LC'', because while that is partially true some of them well be (especially if you plan on carrying them onto third level).

Corruptedmorals

Relax, getting a bit too heated there.

The Irish course HAS been changed, next year, 1st years will be learning a lot more through spoken irish..oral worth a lot more blahh..won't be examined in the LC until 2012 though.

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Its not so much the fact that its mandatory that bothers me.Its the fact that its NEEDED to get into 3 rd level education.That SHOULD be abolished, and theres not really any great reason for it being there.At the very least universities should accept a pass in foundation level Irish (they accept a pass in foundation level maths, so why not Irish?), and thats at the very least.

That's up to the universities themselves to decide. They obviously consider Irish a valuable asset.

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

BUT THATS NOT THE ****ING POINT!!!The time spent learning on Irish could be spent on another subject, that would benefit from the extra work.Why should it be wasted on Irish, which will never be used after the LC?And don't say ''well most LC subjects won't be used after the LC'', because while that is partially true some of them well be (especially if you plan on carrying them onto third level).

As I said above. What you learn in the LC is not much use in college. Even if you do pursue a subject at university level, the standard is so much higher that what you learned for the LC is generally negligible

Perhaps they should give more exemptions to particularly weak students, but that's the only concession I can really give to that point tbh.

Tomlowe

I'm 18 and i'm going to pass Ordinary Level Irish, that is to say, I have attained (and even exceeded) the level that this system of compulsory gaeilge demands of me. If someone tried to speak it to me at any level outside of a school environment, i wouldn't have a clue what they were going on about. Now can anyone tell me what the positive result of me being forced to spend (by my calculation of 4 hours a week, 30 weeks a year for 14 years) 1,680 hours, or ten weeks of my young life attaining this standard is? Hell, i'd be pissed off just to hear that the government was spending money to do it, but to compel people to do it against their will? its just bizarre

Nehpets

Irish shouldn't be compulsory.

"It's no more pointless than English and to a certain extent Maths."

Well as suggested on this forum before, English should be split into English and English Literature. (Like in England I think). The latter should be optional.

Maths is far more valuable than Irish. Most college courses will have some type of maths. You need maths for all trades. Maths can come in handy anywhere. It also teaches logic and problem solving.

It's our native language and it's more popular than it's been in a long time.

Our native language but the the primary language in use in the country. Many people will never use Irish after the leaving cert. (They can't or they don't want to.)

It seems a lot of people don't want to learn it too. Why should those people HAVE to because some people enjoy it?

I love it! Managed to get really fluent at the gaeltacht. I think it should be kept mandatory

Why? Not everyone enjoys it..

Instead of making it optional I think they should make an effort at teaching us the language properly.

Or they could do both?

You'll also notice that there's a group of people who depise Irish for absolutely no logical reason.

They don't have to like Irish even if they do have to do it. Logic isn't exactly needed when liking or disliking something. Also a lot despise it because they find it hard and they are not givin the option of not doing it. I think that makes sense.

If people don't like a subject it should be made optional? Maybe the structure could be altered to make the subject a little bit more engaging for students, but for the purposes of culture, keep it.

I think so. Altering the structure might help a few people but not everyone. Some people just don't like languages and some might just not like Irish. I don't think "for the purposes of culture" arguement stands.

The LC should force a student to learn things their weak at I think though. Contributes to a broad education and all that.

In that case, the subjects given to the student should be the exact opposite to what they want. That would be a stupid challenge.

You learn enough English by 6th class to be able to function just fine in the real world.

Unfortunately not everyone does. People come on here and can't type structured sentences right...

It's only "forced" upon us until we're 18.

What if you are 19 doing the leaving?

Indicative of your attitude as a whole really. You're offering up no new arguments other than the blunt and narrow minded "its useless in real life" rhetoric.

No one has countered his arguement. The only arguement that Irish should be compulsory is - "I like it", and - "for our culture/native language". Oh I forgot the most persauding one - "because it should be".

Personally I despise L.C. Irish but I feel that, through my study of it, I've gained invaluable skills. It's the same with subjects like History and Biology, say.

Funnily enough, neither of those subjects are forced upon us. I think that says something.

if one was to study the subject as it is meant to be studied, they would gain great analytical skills through the literature, the grammar etc.................the fact that it is a requirement shows the importance placed on the skills gained from learning a language.

Yes, a language can teach valuable skills. It doesn't have to be Irish.

radioactiveman

Yes it should be mandatory. It's our language, we should be proud of it - end of story!
It's not like the english we speak isn't influenced by it. And learning any language will help you to learn other languages. There are actually quite a lot of similarities between Irish and european languages. It's completely underestimated in my opinion.
The way it's taught definitely needs to be changed though. If people can finish their leaving speaking better french or german then we need to get real and face up to the fact that most kids have a very poor level of Irish.

When you consider that most people's grammar is nearly 100% irish it shouldn't be such an ordeal. Some people just need to replace english words with irish vocab and they'd be away.....:D (case in point)

yurmothrintites

Everyone has different views as we can see. I feel it should remain a compulsary subject as it is our native language and a reminder of Ireland's culture and past.
The language is already dying out at a phenomenal rate and we need to preserve it in our schools. In my year alone there are 4 pass classes and 2 honours with 12-13 people in the honours classes and 20-23 pupils per pass class. Irish should definately remain mandatory in my opinion.

JC 2K3

Nehpets wrote:

Yes, a language can teach valuable skills. It doesn't have to be Irish.

But why not?

As an Irish nation I believe we should be pushing for Irish to be the second language learned by our youth. Yes, we do need a big change in how it's taught, but that's happening.

Other bilingual countries like Belgium or the Netherlands function just fine.

I'd personally hate for Ireland to turn into an entirely multicultural, globalised, soulless country. Having a native language is core to having a cultural identity and right now compulsory Irish for the Leaving is one of the main ways of ensuring that our people speak at least some Irish.

cson

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Absolutely not.It should be abolished right NOW, and should never be forced upon people ever again.......Thankfully though I don't have to do Irish!Hurrah!!

What the hell is your argument about if you don't even do the subject?! Are you fighting the 'powah', is that it?

And in my esteemed opinion not actually doing the subject would disqualify you from having any credible opinion on it being abolished.

Nehpets

radioactiveman wrote:

Yes it should be mandatory. It's our language, we should be proud of it - end of story!

Bull****.

Everyone has different views as we can see. I feel it should remain a compulsary subject

That certainly seems fair.

The language is already dying out at a phenomenal rate and we need to preserve it in our schools.

Actually it has already been pointed out that Irish is thriving at the moment. Gaelscoils (think that's what they're called) are very popular now. I think they're a great idea btw.

In my year alone there are 4 pass classes and 2 honours with 12-13 people in the honours classes and 20-23 pupils per pass class. Irish should definately remain mandatory in my opinion.

Why? Do you like seeing those people suffer? (Slight exaggeration haha)

I'd personally hate for Ireland to turn into an entirely multicultural, globalised, soulless country. Having a native language is core to having a cultural identity and right now compulsory Irish for the Leaving is one of the main ways of ensuring that our people speak at least some Irish.

Our culture can change, for good or for bad. Right now it seems like it's changing to a more violent one rather than anything else. The culture doesn't have to remain a prehistoric one.

btw, I agree with it being taught in primary school and possibly up to JC but after that I think people should have the choice.

lilmissprincess

Students should have the choice definitely. If a student is interested in a subject enough to pick it for their Leaving Cert, they'll pay attention in it and classes will be more focused, meaning more gets taught. The fact that a thrid language is needed for most Uni's leave a gap if irish is taken out but this could easily be filled by another language.

cson

My thoughts are this;

It should be taught in primary school but not with the emphasis it currently is. I remember having to learn grammar in national school which was utterly ridiculous at 8 years of age. Let the kids watch an hour of TG4 a day and they might actually be interested in learning it.

It should be compulsory at post primary level up to Junior Cert. However there should be more reforms to integrate a more modern feeling to the paper. The Leaving Cert syllabus being reformed to 40% for the oral is a good move but the paper 2 should also be looked at and reformed. The amount of work/rote learning required there is crazy. Perhaps introducing an audio-visual element may make Irish more 'user friendly'.

Finally, 3 subjects should definitely be compulsory for the LC, Maths, English and another language (Irish, French, German etc) which you should be able to choose.

JC 2K3

Nehpets wrote:

Our culture can change, for good or for bad. Right now it seems like it's changing to a more violent one rather than anything else. The culture doesn't have to remain a prehistoric one.

The culture isn't changing, it's simply being eliminated. Look at the state of the UK right now. Do we want that?

Governments can enforce certain things for the sake of preserving culture and it's worth it. Hell even for the sake of every Irish man and woman being able to collectively bitch about having to learn it it's worth it. A nation needs a common cultural identity.

Donald-Duck

cson wrote:

My thoughts are this;

It should be taught in primary school but not with the emphasis it currently is. I remember having to learn grammar in national school which was utterly ridiculous at 8 years of age. Let the kids watch an hour of TG4 a day and they might actually be interested in learning it.

Exactly, from about 2nd or 3rd class I had already decided I hated Irish.

Nehpets

JC 2K3 wrote:

The culture isn't changing, it's simply being eliminated. Look at the state of the UK right now. Do we want that?

Governments can enforce certain things for the sake of preserving culture and it's worth it. Hell even for the sake of every Irish man and woman being able to collectively bitch about having to learn it it's worth it. A nation needs a common cultural identity.

Well Irish IS complusory now and you say our culture is being eliminated? You also said (correct me if I am wrong) that Irish is very popular now.

So basically that proves that Irish isn't helping perserve our culture - so what difference would it make by making it an optional subject for LC level.

I agree with cson's post just above.

cson

I think Enda Kenny wanted to 'de-compulsorise' Irish...... Not gonna happen now

Any changes in changing its compulsory status are likely going to take a long time by which time a lot of people arguing here won't give a ****e whether its compulsory or not.

insafehands

Why not have a poll? Why not? Why? I just don't get it...

And no, it shouldn't.

insafehands

JC 2K3 wrote:

And no one uses ANY subject they do at LC level after the LC unless they go on to study it further, and even then, waht they learned at LC level is rarely much help.

Are you retarded?

Enemy Of Fate

cson wrote:

What the hell is your argument about if you don't even do the subject?! Are you fighting the 'powah', is that it?

And in my esteemed opinion not actually doing the subject would disqualify you from having any credible opinion on it being abolished.

Well see I was very lucky.I was born in the UK, but moved here when I was 6 months old, and as a result have studied Irish all my life.I did honours in first year, and dropped to pass in second year, and I remained in pass until the start of this year.....Then I started to panic when I realised I needed to pass Irish to get into any of my courses, and as a result I started getting grinds and putting hours into Irish.

I actually was becoming quite good (after many hours of work), but then thankfully it turned out that the fantastic NUI colleges no longer require people born outside of the 26 counties to pass Irish to get accepted.And since my first 6 choices on my CAO form were all in NUI colleges (NUIM,NUIG and UCD) I went into school the next day, got the forms filled out (took the principal a ****ing week to sign the damn form) and told my teacher I was leaving and then proceeded to spend the next few months in the study hall (when I was meant to be in Irish).

But then about 2 months ago I was told that, even though I didn't do the oral, and am not going to sit the exam, I still had to go to class.And so I spent the last 2 months going to Irish class every day.....even though I'm not sitting the exam at all.So i'm pretty sure all the time i've wasted learning Irish entitles me to have an opinion on the subject thank you very much.

By the way I like the way you avoided answering anything from my last post.Nicely done.

cson wrote:

I'd personally hate for Ireland to turn into an entirely multicultural, globalised, soulless country.

Funnily enough thats exactly the way I'm hoping Ireland will go, and it actually seems to be coming along quite nicely.

Also why the hell does everyone keep saying ''Oh irish is becoming more popular, look at all the gaelschoils''.Now I don't know what its like elsewhere, but up here in Donegal (quite a big gaelschoil area.....well relative to the rest of them anyways) its just 2 weeks of drinking and discos where NO-ONE ever speaks Irish.So I think the indication that theres more gaelschoils says more about our youth's desire to drink and dance rather than learn Irish.

cson

insafehands wrote:

Are you retarded?

Your arguments are quite limited. Thats twice you've posted that same insult/troll.

insafehands

cson wrote:

Your arguments are quite limited. Thats twice you've posted that same insult/troll.

That was a question, not an argument.

Are you retarded?

cson

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Well see I was very lucky.I was born in the UK, but moved here when I was 6 months old, and as a result have studied Irish all my life.I did honours in first year, and dropped to pass in second year, and I remained in pass until the start of this year.....Then I started to panic when I realised I needed to pass Irish to get into any of my courses, and as a result I started getting grinds and putting hours into Irish.

I actually was becoming quite good (after many hours of work), but then thankfully it turned out that the fantastic NUI colleges no longer require people born outside of the 26 counties to pass Irish to get accepted.And since my first 6 choices on my CAO form were all in NUI colleges (NUIM,NUIG and UCD) I went into school the next day, got the forms filled out (took the principal a ****ing week to sign the damn form) and told my teacher I was leaving and then proceeded to spend the next few months in the study hall (when I was meant to be in Irish).

But then about 2 months ago I was told that, even though I didn't do the oral, and am not going to sit the exam, I still had to go to class.And so I spent the last 2 months going to Irish class every day.....even though I'm not sitting the exam at all.So i'm pretty sure all the time i've wasted learning Irish entitles me to have an opinion on the subject thank you very much.

By the way I like the way you avoided answering anything from

So obviously you're not impartial in this debate and your experiences heavily cloud your arguments. If you want me to take you on and dismantle your post that I 'avoided', I will.

Secondly it was JC 2K3 that posted that second quote which you have attributed to me. Incidentally I thoroughly agree with what he has said there.

cson

insafehands wrote:

That was a question, not an argument.

Are you retarded?

No in fact I do not have a mental disability. Unfortunately many people in this country do and it's quite insulting that you use such a derogatory term so lightly.

Now you've contributed nothing to this debate, so **** off and take your trolling with you.

Nehpets

Enemy Of Fate, gaelscoils and gaelteachts are different things...

Enemy Of Fate

cson wrote:

So obviously you're not impartial in this debate and your experiences heavily cloud your arguments. If you want me to take you on and dismantle your post that I 'avoided', I will.

Go right ahead.And while my experiences may have slightly ''clouded'' my arguments, my stance on Irish has pretty much ALWAYS been the same, as far back as I can remember (even way back in my original primary school, when I would have been in at most 2nd class, I remember talking to my parents about how amazingly pointless Irish was).

cson wrote:

Secondly it was JC 2K3 that posted that second quote which you have attributed to me. Incidentally I thoroughly agree with what he has said there.

Ah.For that I apoligize.I just copy and posted the quote sign, and of course his name transferred over as well.My bad.

Enemy Of Fate

Nehpets wrote:

Enemy Of Fate, gaelscoils and gaelteachts are different things...

Opps.I meant gaelteachts of course.Jesus I'm wrecked.I need some coffee.I mean its only 11 and i'm tired.Damn studying has ruined my sleep cycle.

cson

Well im putting the weapons down, as it is, it aint gonna affect us a whole pile in the future whether Irish is compulsory or not.