Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

JC 2K3

Nehpets wrote:

Well Irish IS complusory now and you say our culture is being eliminated? You also said (correct me if I am wrong) that Irish is very popular now.

So basically that proves that Irish isn't helping perserve our culture - so what difference would it make by making it an optional subject for LC level.

I agree with cson's post just above.

I should have phrased that better.

In some ways it's being eliminated. ie. with immigrants coming in, consumerism becoming more prominent etc.

This has led to a countermeasure amongst some Irish people to attempt to revive some culture, and hence more Gaelscoils are being set up and more kids are attending them etc.

Making LC Irish optional would be contributing to the elimination rather than the revival of Irish culture.

insafehands wrote:

Are you retarded?

Nope, above average intelligencewise infact.

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Funnily enough thats exactly the way I'm hoping Ireland will go, and it actually seems to be coming along quite nicely.

How boring and materialistic a world would that be?

Taffy89

Im really against the Irish course..I HATE IT..Still thats just the course..
Anyway i think Irish should simply be taught to speak it and nothing more..the exam should be an oral and maybe an essay or something.

I just cant understand why, if you go to Spain 7 and 8 year olds are fluent in English. I think the government should look at the Spanish/French/Belgium etc. methods of teaching 2nd languages because they seem to be getting it right. I mean, most people come out of 12 years on school of learnig irish barely able to hold a proper conversation in irish! yet they can tell you about the decliine o Irish in the 18th century..what a load of crap!

Or even make it compulsory but not an exam subject..make the class interesting TG$, irish movies, irish conversations etc

cson

Thats a good point, why do young children learn to speak english? Because they are exposed to it and have to speak it. If the same methodology was applied with Irish or any other language for that matter it would make for people fluent in more than one language.

Having said that you can't reasonably compare Spanish kids learning English to Irish kids learning Irish. Spanish kids learn english because it is the most spoken language in the world.

dan719

Actually mandarin is. English is the most widespread.

insafehands

cson wrote:

Having said that you can't reasonably compare Spanish kids learning English to Irish kids learning Irish. Spanish kids learn english because it is the most spoken language in the world.

I'm starting to believe you may be retarded.

cson

dan719 wrote:

Actually mandarin is. English is the most widespread.

Oh yeah, forgot about the billion or so chinese.

Taffy89

cson wrote:

Having said that you can't reasonably compare Spanish kids learning English to Irish kids learning Irish. Spanish kids learn english because it is the most spoken language in the world.

I know, learning English would be more important and necessary to them due to tourism and what not, I.m just saying that if they can be learning it so easily they must be taught it alot better than we're being taught Irish!:)

JC 2K3

I think the Economic depression which Ireland experienced for much of it's existance contributed to people not caring so much for Irish.

Now that we are prosperous and able to spend money on promoting our culture I believe the problem of bad teaching, bad attitudes towards it etc. will be gradually erased.

Donald-Duck

insafehands wrote:

I'm starting to believe you may be retarded.

Actually hes right. They turn on their TV, they will have a lot of english programs. We turn on ours, we don't have many spanish.

JackKelly

any more personal insults and people will be banned

SamHamilton

By studying Irish:

One learns about our country's literature

One learns about elements of our country's history

One increases one's analytical skills

One gains proficiency in another language

One gains proficiency in a language that is currently providing many job opportunities, nationally and internationally

One developes their ability to retain knowledge

One learns something uniquely Irish, something

Irish, something that, in this multi-cultured world, one can call one's own

There are a lot more advantages to studying Irish than the ones listed above. As is evident, studying Irish equips the student with a variety of skills and one would be hard pushed to find a LC subject that can offer as much.

fantacan

Im just going to ask who is proud of being Irish?

If anyone is still bitter towards the "brits" for what they did to our country (and god knows there's a lot of you!) speaking your own language is one way to prove that they didn't destroy the core of our country. Otherwise you're surrendering to 800 years of opression and forgetting what the men of 1916 died for. I'm not saying you have to speak it every day but to at least keep it alive for generations who may want to.

We have to accept that the language goes hand in hand with who we are and where/who we come from. Saying that we should stand idly by and watch it die is literally stabbing our country/ancestors in the back. By giving the gift of this language to children at an early age (e.g. through education) we're keeping it alive to a certain extent for at least one more generation.
This should firstly be done by parents from the time their children are young. The parents sat it for the LC and should have a working knowledge of it. Maybe for anyone who truly hates irish for the fact that it is mandatory should actually be annoyed at their parents for not preparing them.
The fact of the matter is you have absolutely no choice in the matter so i might suggest doing the same for your children. The subject is mandatory and since Kenny didn't get in power it won't change anytime soon.


I'm gone off topic but just wan't to say that teaching it to kids is the only way to keep a central part of our identity alive and if it has to be mandatory for this to happen then so be it.

cson

Thats a rather extremist view. Did you vote Sinn Fein by any chance?

SamHamilton

I'm with Fantacan. Do we really want to be the generation who turned our backs on the Irish language? We would be blamed in history books for killing an important language integral to Irish culture.

A bit dramatic but maybe that's the patriot in me coming out...:D

Nehpets

"One learns about our country's literature", not in ordinary level. We get extracts that don't make sense as extracts really.

"One learns about elements of our country's history", what?

"One increases one's analytical skills", not everyone would and it's not something unique to Irish.

"One gains proficiency in another language", not unique to Irish

"One developes their ability to retain knowledge", not unique to Irish

"One learns something uniquely Irish, something Irish, something that, in this multi-cultured world, one can call one's own", Something "Irish" doesn't matter to a lot of people. We're not special because we're Irish. We were just born here (new arguement really so probably not best to go into that).

Anyway those points (taking them as truths), and your others can all work
1) with another language
2) if Irish is taught up to JC
3) if Irish is optional for the LC

Nehpets

SamHamilton wrote:

I'm with Fantacan. Do we really want to be the generation who turned our backs on the Irish language? We would be blamed in history books for killing an important language integral to Irish culture.

Making Irish optional for the LC course will hardly damage it. The people who like it will choose it and the people who don't (the people who aren't going to use it again) won't. It's a simple solution really.

SamHamilton

"One increases one's analytical skills", not everyone would and it's not something unique to Irish.

"One gains proficiency in another language", not unique to Irish

"One developes their ability to retain knowledge", not unique to Irish

Anyway those points (taking them as truths), and your others can all work
1) with another language

Why another language? If you hate learning Irish, chances are that you'll hate learning...Spanish, for example. Plus, Irish can offer so much more than other languages being taught. Fair enough, the analytical skills can be gained from French but with French you can't experience the language as easily as you can Irish. Pop out the the gaeltacht and you can use your Irish instead of taking a plane to a foreign country.

Making Irish optional for the LC course will hardly damage it. The people who like it will choose it and the people who don't (the people who aren't going to use it again) won't. It's a simple solution really.

Really? Look at Latin. At one time it was needed to get into university. Now it's not and only 200 LC students take it.

dan719

Yes but latin does give you an exemption from maths for trinity so it has advantages, and I am sure the lack of teachers does not help either, whereas there are a large number of irish teachers.

SamHamilton

I think everyone has agreed that learning a language is important and should be mandatory. Although French is widely taken as a subject, it is not mandatory. Therefore, Irish is the only mandatory language (English can't be counted seeing as everyone, hopefully, is relatively fluent in it) and a language teaches so many things.

If a language should be mandatory (and lots of the above posts have mentioned many things like the skills gained etc. that show that it should) why would it be a language other than Irish? Only with Irish can you speak, hear and read the language daily on radio, tv, newspapers, and with people etc. There would be little( if any) advantage in studying a language that we don't have regular access to. Some people may leave school with little Irish after all their study, but even more people leave school with awful French.

SamHamilton

Yes but latin does give you an exemption from maths for trinity so it has advantages,

Agree. But because it's not mandatory most people don't do it regardless of its advantages. This was my point. If Irish was not mandatory, regardless of its advantages, the numbers would fall significantly.

and I am sure the lack of teachers does not help either, whereas there are a large number of irish teachers.

There's a large number of Irish teachers because many people study it at school. If latin was taught in school there would be more Latin teachers because it is more daunting taking up a subject you have never studied before in college than it is one you have studied for 5,6 years.

JC 2K3

Nehpets wrote:

Something "Irish" doesn't matter to a lot of people. We're not special because we're Irish. We were just born here (new arguement really so probably not best to go into that).

Soviet Russia much? Everyone needs a sense of importance, a feeling of identity.

But yeah, won't go into it.

SamHamilton wrote:

Why another language? If you hate learning Irish, chances are that you'll hate learning...Spanish, for example.

Yup.


At the end of the day, LC Irish being compulsory isn't essential to the survival of the language, but making it optional would be a massive concession.

I see it as culturally important to us to keep it in as many areas of life as possible.

As I already mentioned, even it being something to bitch about when you're older is a positive thing. It's a uniquely Irish thing. Things which are unique about growing up in Ireland are slowly dying.

woop

yes it should be mandatory, what would distinguish us from say the likes of America if we didnt have our languague and the heritage that goes with it, our drinking? surely we do not want to blend in with such other dull nations, I realise that you may not yet realise its significance at the moment but it does and will have a major role in our country although I do think that there should be more of an emphasis on the speaking of it, Im sure many of you might hate it at the moment(as did I) but ask yourself do you hate the languague or the course and the way in which youre being taught it? perhaps if there was a more inclusive attitude towards the languague you might not hate it as much, you should be proud of it, didnt use Irish till I went abroad and trust me it was very helpful then

woop

for those of you who say but Ill never use it, cop on to yourselves, theres many people who study german and other subjects and never use them later in life thats the nature of our educational system, for example you must do in depth study of English pros in order to be a doctor when will a doctor ever be required to quote King Lear!

bit of a rant I know

Bottle_of_Smoke

JC2K3 wrote:

As I already mentioned, even it being something to bitch about when you're older is a positive thing. It's a uniquely Irish thing. Things which are unique about growing up in Ireland are slowly dying.

So what? Christian Brotherhood authority was pretty unique but I'm damn glad that ended!

Soviet Russia much? Everyone needs a sense of importance, a feeling of identity.

It's delusional to think Irish forced down peoples throats in school contributes to a sense of Identity.

SamHamilton wrote:

Why another language? If you hate learning Irish, chances are that you'll hate learning...Spanish, for example.

Untrue, when you're learning Spanish/Italien/French/Polish you think "well this is hard but I'll be able to go to Madrid/wherever & chat up those gorgeous Spaniards/whoever, or even order a meal"

Gaelige & North Donegal just don't have the same appeal. You have to accept a lot of people hate learning Irish because it's pointless. Any benefits can be achieved with another language.

Plus, Irish can offer so much more than other languages being taught. Fair enough, the analytical skills can be gained from French but with French you can't experience the language as easily as you can Irish. Pop out the the gaeltacht and you can use your Irish instead of taking a plane to a foreign country.

Are you for real? There's so many foreigners & foreign bars in Dublin now everyone has an opportunity to experience any language. A flight to Paris may actually cost less than a train to Donegal anyhow.

Really? Look at Latin. At one time it was needed to get into university. Now it's not and only 200 LC students take it.

As it says in my initial post all I want is it to be optional for Leaving Cert-ers, So you've still got Irish on a life support machine up until people reach 16 - how much difference is it gonna make?

Agree. But because it's not mandatory most people don't do it regardless of its advantages. This was my point. If Irish was not mandatory, regardless of its advantages, the numbers would fall significantly.

Nehpets has already torn this argument apart so there's no need for me to repeat. Just admit it's for purely cultural reasons you want it kept mandatory.

woop wrote:

for example you must do in depth study of English pros in order to be a doctor when will a doctor ever be required to quote King Lear!

Nonsense. You only have to achieve a C3 grade in ordinary English to be eligible to apply to be a doctor.

yes it should be mandatory, what would distinguish us from say the likes of America if we didnt have our languague and the heritage that goes with it, our drinking?

So, are you suggesting alcohol intake becomes mandatory?

We don't speak Irish on a day to day basis so it doesn't distinguish us at all.

surely we do not want to blend in with such other dull nations, I realise that you may not yet realise its significance at the moment but it does and will have a major role in our country although I do think that there should be more of an emphasis on the speaking of it,

Hah denial of the highest order, aside from accents we're pretty much the same as every other english speaking nation. Especially the UK.

Im sure many of you might hate it at the moment(as did I) but ask yourself do you hate the languague or the course and the way in which youre being taught it? perhaps if there was a more inclusive attitude towards the languague you might not hate it as much, you should be proud of it, didnt use Irish till I went abroad and trust me it was very helpful then

I don't hate it. I just don't think I should be examined on it.

Read the thread - or even the first post. I'm not suggesting Irish be criminalised- I'm saying make it optional for the leaving. That way you still have it to speak when you're abroad. I'm glad I have the limited Irish vocabulary that's decreasing by the day.

Enemy Of Fate

fantacan wrote:

If anyone is still bitter towards the "brits" for what they did to our country (and god knows there's a lot of you!) speaking your own language is one way to prove that they didn't destroy the core of our country. Otherwise you're surrendering to 800 years of opression and forgetting what the men of 1916 died for. I'm not saying you have to speak it every day but to at least keep it alive for generations who may want to.

Jesus.Fanatacism FTL.Also.......go Collins!!

fantacan wrote:

We have to accept that the language goes hand in hand with who we are and where/who we come from.

I've already dealt with this point.If thats the attitude you want to talk, why don't you just go out, work in the fields all day, and then earn 4 shillings for your hard work?Because poverty and agricultural go hand in hand with who we are and where we have come from.

fantacan wrote:

Maybe for anyone who truly hates irish for the fact that it is mandatory should actually be annoyed at their parents for not preparing them.

....................................OK.Well that is just foolish on every level.What happens if your parents never did Irish?Should the student suffer?

fantacan wrote:

The fact of the matter is you have absolutely no choice in the matter so i might suggest doing the same for your children.

Right.....because its not like its common practice to try to make the world (bit of a broad statement there I know, but you all catch my drift) better for our children.And don't came back with **** like ''Oh but how do you know removing Irish will make the world better?''.A choice is always better than no choice.

SamHamilton wrote:

Why another language? If you hate learning Irish, chances are that you'll hate learning...Spanish, for example.Plus, Irish can offer so much more than other languages being taught.

That is offically the stupidiest thing thats been said all topic.How the hell do you work that out?

SamHamilton wrote:

Pop out the the gaeltacht and you can use your Irish instead of taking a plane to a foreign country.

You mean a foreign country where they actually use the language properly, and you can practice it by going into any shop/building and talking to any non-tourists?You're actualy saying its better to go to the gaelteacht to practice irish then it is to practice another language in a foreign country?Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

SamHamilton wrote:

Really? Look at Latin. At one time it was needed to get into university. Now it's not and only 200 LC students take it.

Exactly.Only 200 people actually wanted to do Latin, so forcing thousands and thousands of others to do it was just irritating them and probably led to them having a severe hatred of Latin.

SamHamilton wrote:

I think everyone has agreed that learning a language is important and should be mandatory.

But that language shouldn't HAVE to be Irish.

SamHamilton wrote:

Only with Irish can you speak, hear and read the language daily on radio, tv, newspapers, and with people etc.

And where the hell are you going to do that?

SamHamilton wrote:

There would be little( if any) advantage in studying a language that we don't have regular access to.

Exactly.....so why are you suggesting Irish as a viable language?

SamHamilton wrote:

Some people may leave school with little Irish after all their study, but even more people leave school with awful French.

Doubtful.I don't know of anyone who does both languages, whose french/german/italian is worse than their Irish.

JC 2K3

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Hah denial of the highest order, aside from accents we're pretty much the same as every other english speaking nation. Especially the UK.

And you wouldn't like to move away from that? The UK has had so many social problems in recent years and is becoming devoid of any unique sense of identity.

I accept that LC Irish as it is now is not encouraging the language in anyway as well as it should, but until there are systems in place that ensure Irish children have a better grasp of the language(I mean in all honestly, it's a disgrace that they're not fluent by the end of 6th class), I believe it should remain mandatory.

I also beleive, and I've said it before in this thread, that arguments against it are slowly going to decrease in the next 10 years.

Nehpets

SamHamilton wrote:

I think everyone has agreed that learning a language is important and should be mandatory. Although French is widely taken as a subject, it is not mandatory. Therefore, Irish is the only mandatory language (English can't be counted seeing as everyone, hopefully, is relatively fluent in it) and a language teaches so many things.

If a language should be mandatory (and lots of the above posts have mentioned many things like the skills gained etc. that show that it should) why would it be a language other than Irish? Only with Irish can you speak, hear and read the language daily on radio, tv, newspapers, and with people etc. There would be little( if any) advantage in studying a language that we don't have regular access to. Some people may leave school with little Irish after all their study, but even more people leave school with awful French.

You need to start readining and taking in other posts from people besides yourself.

yes it should be mandatory, what would distinguish us from say the likes of America if we didnt have our languague

The language will still be there regardless of it being mandatory for the LC.

you should be proud of it

Oh should I? (Again, I'm not going into that). I don't see this as a reason to force people to do it for the LC.

I don't hate it. I just don't think I should be examined on it.

That basically sums up what I am saying.

This is turning a bit into quote tennis and I doubt any new points will be made.

SamHamilton

Why another language? If you hate learning Irish, chances are that you'll hate learning...Spanish, for example.Plus, Irish can offer so much more than other languages being taught.

That is offically the stupidiest thing thats been said all topic.How the hell do you work that out?

Now that is officially the most stupid thing that's been said all topic.

Do you really think studying Spanish would be so much more exciting than Irish? I like studying French but I'm the only one in my class that likes it. Everyone thinks French is pointless. They feel they're never going to use it again. You don't need French to visit France as a tourist. It seems you are getting overly personal about this issue. You have denied anything we have said in favour of the language and continue to say that we feel it's all about our identity when, in fact, that is only one aspect of the many things we've discussed.

Just because you're frustrated about a subject doesn't mean it shouldn't be mandatory.

Originally Posted by SamHamilton
Pop out the the gaeltacht and you can use your Irish instead of taking a plane to a foreign country.

You mean a foreign country where they actually use the language properly, and you can practice it by going into any shop/building and talking to any non-tourists?You're actualy saying its better to go to the gaelteacht to practice irish then it is to practice another language in a foreign country?Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

I went on a trip to Paris recently. Didn't speak one word of French. No tourist does. It is a lot easier to go to a place like the Gaeltacht.

It's a short journey away

People feel a lot less anxious/homesick because they're not in an entirely different country, most times away from their parents

People have the option of speaking English if they feel they are not being understood

And the list goes on and on. If a student in LC went to France who wanted to learn more French, they would be unable to use their French with the French people because the standard just wouldn't be high enough. They would get frustrated and feel alienated. So much easier to integrate yourself into a Gaeltacht with people you know will be able to understand you.

Only with Irish can you speak, hear and read the language daily on radio, tv, newspapers, and with people etc.

And where the hell are you going to do that?

Now you're are just ignoring the facts. You keep saying Irish is dead but it's everywhere at the moment. Why learn French and have the difficulty of finding French texts, videos etc. when they are already available in Irish. Whether you are the poorest LC student in Ireland or the richest one, you will have access to papers, videos, etc in Irish.
And that's another point. Irish does promote equality. Not everyone can manage trips abroad to foreign countries whereas almost everyon can afford a car drive to the Gaeltacht.

There would be little( if any) advantage in studying a language that we don't have regular access to.

Exactly.....so why are you suggesting Irish as a viable language?

Didn't I already mention newspapers, TG4, radio, Nuacht RTE...

Some people may leave school with little Irish after all their study, but even more people leave school with awful French.

Doubtful.I don't know of anyone who does both languages, whose french/german/italian is worse than their Irish.

Perhaps this is a personal thing but from my view, people in my school leave with enough Irish to hold a conversation and more. In French though, while they may be able to conjugate the subjunctive of etre, they cannot speak the language well enough to converse.

SamHamilton

Exactly.Only 200 people actually wanted to do Latin, so forcing thousands and thousands of others to do it was just irritating them and probably led to them having a severe hatred of Latin.

#

Not true. I wanted to study Latin. In fact I intend to study it in university next year. The problem is, because it's not mandatory, small (enough) schools like mine that are scattered all over the country won't have the option to teach a lot of non-mandatory subjects. Many people would lose out. People who may want to study Irish just won't have the option.

Enemy Of Fate

SamHamilton wrote:

Do you really think studying Spanish would be so much more exciting than Irish?

Yes I do, and while I don't do Spanish, I study German and find it INFINITELY more interesting than Irish, as do the majority of my class (who are actually crap at both languages).

SamHamilton wrote:

You don't need French to visit France as a tourist. It seems you are getting overly personal about this issue. You have denied anything we have said in favour of the language and continue to say that we feel it's all about our identity when, in fact, that is only one aspect of the many things we've discussed.

I know you don't need French to get by in France (did French up until the JC, went to France in 2nd year and never used a word) nor do you need to use German in Germany, but the fact is you WILL be at a disadvantage.I mean sure a good 75% of the people over there speak german/french, but what about the 25% who don't?What about the fact that very few signs are in English (and I'm talking about cities like Berlin, Nice and Paris here, all with very few english signs.Hell even Euro-disney had very few english signs), a bit knowledge of the language certainly wouldn't hurt.......whereas here a bit of knowledge of the language wouldn't be of any benefit whatsoever, because EVERYTHING is in english.

SamHamilton wrote:

Now you're are just ignoring the facts. You keep saying Irish is dead but it's everywhere at the moment. Why learn French and have the difficulty of finding French texts, videos etc. when they are already available in Irish.

On the internet I can find hundreds upon hundreds of french websites, french videos and hell even french people to talk to in FRENCH.Now.Can you say the same about Irish?Can you find a website completely in Irish for me?Hell this is a website for Ireland!Does it even have a board for irish?And if it does, is it ever used?!

SamHamilton wrote:

And that's another point. Irish does promote equality.

OK now you are SERIOUSLY clutching at straws.How the hell does Irish promote equality?!

SamHamilton wrote:

Perhaps this is a personal thing but from my view, people in my school leave with enough Irish to hold a conversation and more. In French though, while they may be able to conjugate the subjunctive of etre, they cannot speak the language well enough to converse.

Maybe thats just a result of bad teaching, because I certainly know enough german to hold a decent conversation, and in my school French is practiced to a MUCH higher standard than german.