Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

Nehpets

SamHamilton wrote:

To answer the question at hand, I propose that we should make a list of reasons why Irish should or should not be mandatory. Nice and short bullet points. I'll start.:D

Pros

Studying Irish raises your analytical skills

Studying Irish increases one's ability to retain knowledge by forcing one to retain information on stair na Gaeilge, literature etc

Having Irish means it might be easier to find a job.

Cons

Irish isn't

really needed if you want to be a doctor, architect, circus performer etc

Students may be forced to spend more time than they'd like studying Irish because it's needed to get into college when that time could be used to focus on subjects integral to their future careers.

That's just a start.

Your first two points don't apply because they can be applied from different subjects. And your third point is useless if people don't like Irish (then they obviously won't want a job using it).

All that would have/should have been gained by the JC (if taught properly) so there really is no need for it to be mandatory at LC level in your logic, or mine.

JC 2K3

dan719 wrote:

This raises the questio as to what is education. Is education what you learn at school? Or is it an individual journey of exploration, although I would quite happily specialise in maths and physics in school, my interests as a whole are very broad and include art, literature, and attempting to drink at least once every alcoholic beverage in existance. As such I believe that while specilisation would make school easy for me as far as exams are concered, it would not harm my own individual holistic approach to knowledge.

Yes, but you're an exceptional student. For the average student, a degree of forcing them to study many different subjects is necessary.

Education is an individual journey of exploration. But most young people need to be motivated and encourage to broaden their interests if we don't want most students' journeys to be homogenous explorations of Bebo and what's on TV.(Ok that's an extremeist, exaggerated example, but you get my point)

SamHamilton

Your first two points don't apply because they can be applied from different subjects. And your third point is useless if people don't like Irish (then they obviously won't want a job using it).

Just think of the big picture and list your points. Advantages and disadvantages of Irish. This isn't exactly the way I phrased it but take it as this and see what happens.

All that would have/should have been gained by the JC (if taught properly) so there really is no need for it to be mandatory at LC level in your logic, or mine.

Not really. One's analytical skills need to be continually developed and etc. Just make your list. I'm interested.

Nehpets

SamHamilton wrote:

Just think of the big picture and list your points. Advantages and disadvantages of Irish. This isn't exactly the way I phrased it but take it as this and see what happens.



Not really. One's analytical skills need to be continually developed and etc. Just make your list. I'm interested.

Have you read the last 7 pages?

dan719

But JC 2k3 would you not at least partially agree that the reason some people have no interest in these subjects is that they are forced to do them, that any sort of enthusiam 'is dried from the bone'.

SamHamilton

Have you read the last 7 pages?

Exactly. Seven pages. If we make a list it'll be so much easier to judge the subject instead of swimming through pages of (digital) ink.

JC 2K3

dan719 wrote:

But JC 2k3 would you not at least partially agree that the reason some people have no interest in these subjects is that they are forced to do them, that any sort of enthusiam 'is dried from the bone'.

Yup, but no education system is perfect.

If I knew that the government had a plan with plenty of financial backing that would ensure every child starting primary school next September would be fluent at least by the time they reached 15 then I'd have no problem with optional LC Irish being introduced next year.

However, no such guarantee exists. As a mandatory subject for the LC, Irish retains at least some status of being somewhat important(albeit not generally liked) at some stage in everyone's life.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Sam I'm going to change your list to the title of the actual thread

Points for & against Irish being mandatory for the LEAVING CERT

For: Will ensure students will be exposed to an extra language for 15% longer than if it was only mandatory up until Junior cert.


Against:
It will give students with no interest in the language an opportunity to spend that time on subjects they are interested in.

It will relieve frustration with the system as students are given more freedom to choose.

It will stop students from associating their native language with frustration & resentment.

Will put pressure on the Gaelige board to make the subject ore spoken friendly & may lead to a surge in people speaking it on a day to day basis.

---

Sam your other for points can be applied to any other language so they don't deserve a mention.

Enemy Of Fate

SamHamilton wrote:

Nice the way that's all you chose to quote. I answered that question right after what you chose to take from my post.

I choose not to quote your ''answer'' because it was just so ridiculous.I mean what if people are too poor to afford the trip to the gaelteacht?Is that equal?No.....but then again that question is also stupid.....and so is saying that Irish promotes equality.

SamHamilton wrote:

Money has nothing to do with obtaining an A grade in Irish while it has a lot to do with obtaining an A grade in French.

Huh.Funny.And here was me thinking getting good grades were a result of work and not money.Silly me.

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

So how about doing some research before making sweeping statements? : )

I said the first link was laughable, and that the second one (the one who 4/5 pages of topics) was extremely surprising.

SamHamilton wrote:

But if you have Irish you are at a huge advantage. There are lots of really good jobs going for those with the Irish language, jobs that foreigners can't take, jobs that are for the Irish.

Like what.And that does come across as slightly racist.

SamHamilton wrote:

It will be our knowledge of the Irish language that will give us the upper hand.

And how do you figure that out?Hell the only ''real'' jobs I can think of that require irish would be teaching.....and perhaps being an irish translator.So how exactly will Irish give people a better chance of getting jobs?

fantacan wrote:

Umm, maybe I'll get a career in irish media or get a well paid job in Brussells or maybe a well paid translator who can work from home for all my life. That's the typical ignorant attitude that needs to be changed through a more inclusive course.

Thats......not really what I was getting at.You said Irish was a part of our history/heritage.And I said poverty and agricuture were part of our history, so should we all be poor farmers as well because its part of our heritage?I wasn't talking about modern day Ireland.

fantacan wrote:

If your parents are Irish and sat their leaving cert here then there is no way they have not done Irish (except in rare exceptions). If they aren't Irish then i can accept that it mightn't be as easy and am willing to accept that.

They may have done Irish, but that doesn't meant they passed it!!.....Although I think my parents did.

PurpleFistMixer

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

I said the first link was laughable, and that the second one (the one who 4/5 pages of topics) was extremely surprising.

Why laughable?

SamHamilton

Money has nothing to do with obtaining an A grade in Irish while it has a lot to do with obtaining an A grade in French.

Huh.Funny.And here was me thinking getting good grades were a result of work and not money.Silly me.

It's possible to get a B in French without a trip abroad or a French course but for the A grade being around people speaking the language is v. important. I've written about this earlier in several posts.

But if you have Irish you are at a huge advantage. There are lots of really good jobs going for those with the Irish language, jobs that foreigners can't take, jobs that are for the Irish.

Like what.

Again, I've already covered this. Producing, researching, camera work, journalism, sound engineering etc. with TG4, Ros na Rún, O Teilifís etc.

Hell the only ''real'' jobs I can think of that require irish would be teaching.....and perhaps being an irish translator.So how exactly will Irish give people a better chance of getting jobs?

My sister and my cousin started working in Ros na Rún in jobs open only to people with Irish, jobs that they couldn't get in English-language companies due to competition. They worked their ways up the ladder and now my sister works as a researcher and my cousin works on the Late Late show. They'd never have these jobs if it wasn't for Irish. Their Irish allowed them to gain experience and then when they went to other companies their experience put them ahead of the competition.

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Like what.And that does come across as slightly racist.

FFS, is anyone who even slightly implies that immigration and multiculturism is a bad thing "racist" these days?

Enemy Of Fate

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

Why laughable?

Because it only has about 20 topics, and most have either 0 or 4 posts (except for that massive one with 1000+.....which shocks and saddens me).

SamHamilton wrote:

Again, I've already covered this. Producing, researching, camera work, journalism, sound engineering etc. with TG4, Ros na Rún, O Teilifís etc.

But anyone could easily got those jobs through other methods.Its not like Irish is NEEDED for them.

SamHamilton wrote:

My sister and my cousin started working in Ros na Rún in jobs open only to people with Irish, jobs that they couldn't get in English-language companies due to competition.

No, jobs that would be more difficult to get due to competition.Not jobs that they couldn't get due to competetion.I mean its not like Irish is a magic thing that opens all sorts of wonderful doors for you!

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Because it only has about 20 topics, and most have either 0 or 4 posts (except for that massive one with 1000+.....which shocks and saddens me).

Saddens you? Get a life.

Who wants to discuss grammatical elements of a language anyway? That's what that forum is for. There're very few posts on the English board too. Teach na nGealt is a much better reflection on the amount of willing Irish speakers on Boards.

SamHamilton

No, jobs that would be more difficult to get due to competition.Not jobs that they couldn't get due to competetion.I mean its not like Irish is a magic thing that opens all sorts of wonderful doors for you!

No, jobs that they couldn't get. I know, they tried. They are my relatives, I think I'd know. And believe it or not, it is a "magic thing that opens...doors for" a lot of people.

JC 2K3

Also, do your driving test through Irish and you jump up the waiting list. Deadliness

Enemy Of Fate

JC 2K3 wrote:

Saddens you? Get a life.

I do believe i'm perfectly entitled to feel a slight depression when I see so much Irish in one place.Also I have a life and as a result I don't feel the need to use personal insults over the internet.You should try it.

SamHamilton wrote:

No, jobs that they couldn't get. I know, they tried. They are my relatives, I think I'd know.

So you're saying that there was absolutely NO chance of them EVER getting the job without Irish?That seems liike a serious, SERIOUS exageration.I'm not saying Irish doesn't have benefits in that sort of situation, but i'm pretty sure it isn't as vitally important as you're making it out to be.

SamHamilton

So you're saying that there was absolutely NO chance of them EVER getting the job without Irish?That seems liike a serious, SERIOUS exageration.I'm not saying Irish doesn't have benefits in that sort of situation, but i'm pretty sure it isn't as vitally important as you're making it out to be.

No, jobs that they couldn't get

That doesn't have a never ever in it does it? Of course they could have waited around for a few years for a job opening but why would they when after 2 years working in Ros na Rún (getting good money and being trained free of charge) they could almost pick the jobs they wanted? If anyone is exaggerating, it's you.

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

I do believe i'm perfectly entitled to feel a slight depression when I see so much Irish in one place.

Right, so people speaking a language because they like it depresses you....

fantacan

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

I do believe i'm perfectly entitled to feel a slight depression when I see so much Irish in one place

Oh my god I have never been happier that the Irish course is mandatory than now, after reading that. If you're not going to even accept it and feel upset to even see it written then i am hugely pleased that you will HAVE TO sit it and suffer if thats how you feel about it. Maybe if you were a bit more open minded you could enjoy it and possibly get a good grade.

fantacan

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Thats......not really what I was getting at.You said Irish was a part of our history/heritage.And I said poverty and agricuture were part of our history, so should we all be poor farmers as well because its part of our heritage?I wasn't talking about modern day Ireland.

The fact of the matter is that this is modern Ireland where jobs are available through Irish. This part of our culture has been taken up to todays modern careers despite it being ancient. It doesn't mean we have to dwell in the past, agriculture isn't as relevant today and we've come out of poverty, culture is part of our heritage so why not maintain it?

Enemy Of Fate

SamHamilton wrote:

If anyone is exaggerating, it's you.

How the **** am I exaggerating?Some of your posts just make no sense.....

fantacan wrote:

i am hugely pleased that you will HAVE TO sit it and suffer if thats how you feel about it. Maybe if you were a bit more open minded you could enjoy it and possibly get a good grade.

......Um if you'd read my previous posts, you would realise that I don't have to do it.And anyways I was open minded about Irish once, but after 3-4 years of doing it at primary school I developed an extreme dislike to Irish in any form.

fantacan wrote:

culture is part of our heritage so why not maintain it?

.......OK you're missing the point.I;m not saying that there AREN'T jobs available for those who speak Irish.I'm just saying that when people say ''oh its part of our culture'', its not a decent argument by any stretch of the imagination.

SamHamilton

How the **** am I exaggerating?Some of your posts just make no sense.....

So you're saying that there was absolutely NO chance of them EVER getting the job without Irish?

You plucked that out of this:

they couldn't get in English-language companies due to competition.

Now that's exaggeration.

That seems liike a serious, SERIOUS exageration.

"serious, SERIOUS" - what does that sound like? Exaggeration.

Some of your posts just make no sense.....

Not true. Just because you are unable to understand them doesn't mean they "make no sense".

Enemy Of Fate

SamHamilton wrote:

"serious, SERIOUS" - what does that sound like? Exaggeration.

Actually I think you'll find thats emphasising, not exaggerating.Theres a large difference.

SamHamilton wrote:

Not true. Just because you are unable to understand them doesn't mean they "make no sense".

I understand them absolutely fine, but that doesn't change the fact that they make no sense.

tolosenc

JC 2K3 wrote:

Also, do your driving test through Irish and you jump up the waiting list. Deadliness

Lean ar aghaidh...

Bottle_Of_Smoke,
your first two points against Gaeilge in that list can be applied to any other subject, and the third could be applied should any other language be compulsary. Therefore they aren't really worth a mention, by your logic. And I fail to see how the fourth, a surge in the number of people speaking it, is a bad thing.

Enemy of Fate,
The "Irish should be done away with coz I don't like it coz I was never good at it" excuse is far worse than saving it for cultural reasons. I don't agree with either, however yours is just defeatist and depressing.

SamHamilton

serious, SERIOUS

That's certainly an exaggerated emphasis.

I understand them absolutely fine, but that doesn't change the fact that they make no sense.

That's not something someone who understood them would say so...

Anyway, can you stop this puerile bickering, please?

Enemy Of Fate

obl wrote:

The "Irish should be done away with coz I don't like it coz I was never good at it" excuse

Um thats not actually my only reason, in fact its not even my main one (my main reason is the fact that it can hold people back from 3rd level education).Another big reason (that I actually don't think i've mentioned) is that I feel people shouldn't be forced to do anything.They should always have a choice, and the mandatory irish imposed by our current education system, removes people's ability to choose.

And also i'm not saying do away with the subject completely (although I would quite like that), i'm just saying do away with it being mandatory at secondary school, or at the very least remove it as a requirement for universities.

SamHamilton wrote:

That's not something someone who understood them would say so...

I think that statement may be slightly biased since you're referring to things you said.....

cson

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Um thats not actually my only reason, in fact its not even my main one (my main reason is the fact that it can hold people back from 3rd level education)

It holds fcuk all people back. The percentage of students who failed OL Irish in the Leaving Certificate was 5%. Thats 5 people in a hundred who im sure if they worked a bit harder and applied themselves more would have passed it. So th argument that it "holds people back" is utter $hite.

Donald-Duck

cson wrote:

It holds fcuk all people back. The percentage of students who failed OL Irish in the Leaving Certificate was 5%. Thats 5 people in a hundred who im sure if they worked a bit harder and applied themselves more would have passed it. So th argument that it "holds people back" is utter $hite.

To be honest, to fail ordinary level Irish I think that you have to try fail it.

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Um thats not actually my only reason, in fact its not even my main one (my main reason is the fact that it can hold people back from 3rd level education).Another big reason (that I actually don't think i've mentioned) is that I feel people shouldn't be forced to do anything.They should always have a choice, and the mandatory irish imposed by our current education system, removes people's ability to choose.

In the state education system we are essentially still children and don't have to have the right to choose anyting.

Would you be for making Maths and English optional also?