Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

stephen222

Stair na Gaeilge is ridiculous! If I wanted to do Irish History I'd do....history!!

JC 2K3

^Agreed.

cson

Three words: Flogging. Dead. Horse.

lilmizzme

cson wrote:

Three words: Flogging. Dead. Horse.

Here here...let it go people!!

emzher

I think Irish should remain 100% mandatory, something I feel very strongly about!! And yes the main reason is because its our native language, its part of our culture and our history!! To say you dont need irish to get a job is stupid! Without Irish, becoming a primary school teacher would be near impossible, "an teastas dá teangach" was required to qualify as a primary school teacher (I'm not sure if it's still implemented)

I do agree, however that the syllabus should be changed to provide a more intensive course on the language itself, I've noticed not many people know rules on uru's etc. The pros qtns however do provide a nice look back to people who were high up in literatue society years ago! These people were considered Gods many years back, and I appreciate the tradition of studying it!!

To say "let it go" actually angers me, and is evidence of and increasing braindead, moronic, short-sighted society. It is a very unpatriotic statement and proves lack of pride in Irish traditions!! I don't think one would be so quick to rid themselves of the tradition of going getting drunk at every opportunity!! I do understand that Irish is poorly tought in schools and the sterotypical Irish teacher is often old and senile with a very biased view of teaching!! I was fortunate enough in my repeat year to have one of the best, one of the greatest, and one of the most modern teachers who highlighted the true beauty of the language to me!! Irish is a very powerful language which only a very elite group of people have out of BILLIONS!! I believe that you people will regret your approach on the Irish language, and will thank the fact that it was forced upon you to learn it, as it provides an extension into what being Irish is all about!! To be "proud to be irish" also means being proud of our heritage including our language!!

analyse this

emzher wrote:

I think Irish should remain 100% mandatory, something I feel very strongly about!! And yes the main reason is because its our native language, its part of our culture and our history!!

Yes but don't you think it is unfair and, perhaps, a bit primitive, to have our culture shoved down our throats? How can we enjoy and appreciate our culture when its existing at the expense of our freedom of choice?

To say you dont need irish to get a job is stupid! Without Irish, becoming a primary school teacher would be near impossible, "an teastas dá teangach" was required to qualify as a primary school teacher (I'm not sure if it's still implemented) To get a job in the "statseirbheis" irish was also mandatory!!

I'm not sure how making Irish a choice subject will hinder people's chances of becoming teachers, or any other professional for that matter? If a person requires Irish as a requirement for his course then he can CHOOSE to study it. Its that simple!

Also to say that a certain leaving cert subject will provide a basis for the future is utterly idiotic!! No Leaving Cert subject provides a deep enough study into anything to provide a basis for the future! What is learned for the Leaving cert, is very broad and minimal!!

What's your point? By future do you mean personal life or career life? Either way really I have to disagree. Its completely relative to the individual. A subject can be only so important or so pointless based on what the individual wants to achieve in life. Also, I feel your contradicting your previous point where you said that one NEEDED Irish to get a job.

I do agree, however that the syllabus should be changed to provide a more intensive course on the language itself, I've noticed not many people know rules on uru's etc. The pros qtns however do provide a nice look back to people who were high up in literatue society years ago! These people were considered Gods many years back, and I appreciate the tradition of studying it!!

Again, completely relative to the individual and what they want to get out of life, or, in this case, Irish. It begs the question whether the subject should be subdivided to accomodate these different goals, i.e. basic language, literature, history etc.

In the end, while I do recognise that Irish plays an important role in expressing our culture and identity, I feel that we are going about its promotion and implementation the wrong way. Its basic human instinct to rebel against something that has been forced upon us. This is particularly relevant in today's world, where freedom of choice and democracy are so prevalent. Conversely, people are attracted to the possibility of achieving something that is being OFFERED to them rather than being thrown at them.

JC 2K3

analyse this wrote:

What's your point? By future do you mean personal life or career life? Either way really I have to disagree. Its completely relative to the individual. A subject can be only so important or so pointless based on what the individual wants to achieve in life. Also, I feel your contradicting your previous point where you said that one NEEDED Irish to get a job.

No, it can only be important or pointless based on the depth of the course. And no LC subject has enough depth to be much use even if you wished to pursue a similar field to that subject in college.

Irish being mandatory is just part of a broad education, we're not supposed to be specialising and choosing career options at 16/17.

Enemy Of Fate

emzher wrote:

To say you dont need irish to get a job is stupid! Without Irish, becoming a primary school teacher would be near impossible, "an teastas dá teangach" was required to qualify as a primary school teacher (I'm not sure if it's still implemented)

Just make it so that you don't need it to be a primary school teacher anymore.Simple.

emzher wrote:

To say "let it go" actually angers me, and is evidence of and increasing braindead, moronic, short-sighted society.

Right.....The people who actually want to have a choice in the matter, rather than be forced to do it against their will are the moronic, braindead ones.Great logic there.

emzher wrote:

It is a very unpatriotic statement and proves lack of pride in Irish traditions!!

Oh boo hoo.As i've said before being poor farmers is an irish tradition too.Should we continue with that tradition as well?!

-blondie-

I thinkit should still be mandatory. Poems and Prós ae just as pointless as English poetry.

However-they should change how its thaught and GET RID OF STAIR NA GAEILGE!

emzher

analyse this wrote:

Yes but don't you think it is unfair and, perhaps, a bit primitive, to have our culture shoved down our throats? How can we enjoy and appreciate our culture when its existing at the expense of our freedom of choice?

I dont think its exploiting our freedom of choice, it's a very minor choice in our lives which is made, that is hughely aiding the revival of the language, and, our culture! Something that the English tried so terribly to rid us of, and almost succeded! I think of it as more of carrying on the tradition of Padraig Mac Piaras, Dubhghlas De h'Ide and Eoin Mac Neill who fought so hard in the plight of its resurection!!

I'm not sure how making Irish a choice subject will hinder people's chances of becoming teachers, or any other professional for that matter? If a person requires Irish as a requirement for his course then he can CHOOSE to study it. Its that simple!

Yes, I agree that he OR she may CHOOSE to do it if it is required by their course, but what 12 year old knows what they want to persure as a career when they're making subject decisions in 1st year! I for one would not have this such passion were the Irish language not (to so brutally quote) "forced" upon me!

What's your point? By future do you mean personal life or career life? Either way really I have to disagree. Its completely relative to the individual. A subject can be only so important or so pointless based on what the individual wants to achieve in life. Also, I feel your contradicting your previous point where you said that one NEEDED Irish to get a job.

Yes, you're right, I didnt specify for personal life or for career life, in that a Leaving cert subject aides in the future, therefore I'm not contradicting myself but highlighting that the Irish language still does play an important role in our economy!! I was infact writing that with a comment by someone who said that economics provides a basis for someone setting up a business in mind!! It doesn't it provides a slight basis for entering a college course, and not much at that, I shall add!

Again, completely relative to the individual and what they want to get out of life, or, in this case, Irish. It begs the question whether the subject should be subdivided to accomodate these different goals, i.e. basic language, literature, history etc.

I dont really undersatnd your point here or its relevance to mine! I think the point of studying so much in Irish is that those who have set the syllabus and are working so hard in "athbheocan na Gaeilge" are trying to promote the fact that there is more to the language than just what meets the eye! They are highlighting how so many people have taken interest in it, and used it to create something so beautiful e.g the hundreds of examples of poetry and proverbs!

In the end, while I do recognise that Irish plays an important role in expressing our culture and identity, I feel that we are going about its promotion and implementation the wrong way. Its basic human instinct to rebel against something that has been forced upon us. This is particularly relevant in today's world, where freedom of choice and democracy are so prevalent. Conversely, people are attracted to the possibility of achieving something that is being OFFERED to them rather than being thrown at them.

Again, to "force" it upon an individual during the years where they have the greatest capacity and ability to learn and retain the language is an attempt at its revival! I think that those working towards its awaken could be safe in saying that most people who have lived in Ireland all their lives have an understanding, whether large or small of the language, which is better than none at all, right?!! An attempt at reversing order and re-implementing the high respect that the Irish language held among the Irish nation before its "meath" and before the Great Famine! It is established in our society on the whole that, Irish as a language to study is "boring" or "annoying" or whatever one may call it, so I don't think removing it as mandatory will help it or our culture in any way!

I apologise, my previous comment was under construcion when you replied to it, I had actually changed it!

emzher

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Just make it so that you don't need it to be a primary school teacher anymore.Simple.

And therefore no longer teach irish to primary school students and reversing all efforts of the heroes of our country?? Not so simplie I'm afraid!

Right.....The people who actually want to have a choice in the matter, rather than be forced to do it against their will are the moronic, braindead ones.Great logic there.

I didn't say that, I was referring, quite obviously, that to wish to get rid of the language, proves that, that sort of society have no respect for their heritage or learning about it for that matter, and therefore no interest in learning, i.e braindead etc

Oh boo hoo.As i've said before being poor farmers is an irish tradition too.Should we continue with that tradition as well?!

I'll have you note, that farming does not imply lack of money, Many farmers in this country are worth near millions!! More than some high class business people, and If it were a poor profession it would no longer be in existance! Some of the wealthiest peole I know, are farmers! Ireland is not the only country with a strong history of farming there are many others too!! To class farming as a "poor tradition" is quite biased of you!! You have fallen into the trap of believing a quite general stereotype! Farming accounts for quite a large chunk of our economy, and to rid ourselves of that tradition would be stupid to say the least as it would mean riding ourselvs of beef, all dairy produce, most food needed and eaten on a daily basis!! So to conclude, yes, why would one get rid of farming??

emzher

-blondie- wrote:

I thinkit should still be mandatory. Poems and Prós ae just as pointless as English poetry.

However-they should change how its thaught and GET RID OF STAIR NA GAEILGE!

To be honest Stair na Gaeilge is a handy 30 marks! They put up the same ones year in year out, if you read over them in the papers, hey, presto 30 marks in the bag! It worked for me!!

E92

Ba aoibhinn liom Stair na Gaeilge. Bhí sé ar feabhas ar fad. AN cheist ba fhearr i bPáipéar 2 i mo scrúdú Dé háoine seo caite.

As for whether Irish should be complusory, the country has had independence from Britain since 1949,and a free state since 1922, and we have made no real effort to revive Gaeilge.
What some do is blame the British(how convienent), like my Irish teacher did.(the fact that the Israelis brought back Hebrew back from the dead(and it was as dead as Latin is today) to be a spoken language in 3 years was convieniently 'forgotten') If we really wanteed to bring back Irish, we could. But we don't. In Wales, Welsh isn't compulsory, unlike here with Irish. 25 % of Welsh people use Welsh as a day-to-day language. Compulsory Irish hasn't worked. If it did we would be at the vbery orst bi-lingual today. 58 years on from complete independence from Britain, and we've done f*ck all in reality.

We only actually bothered to do something in the past 10 years, with TG4 etc. Now I must say I dislike Irish cause of the way its thought, I had a very bad experience of it for the past 6 years, I got great teaching of Irish in primary school, in fact I had better Irish at the end of 6th class than I have today, and cause you can get a B3 in Honours by simply rote learning, and no actuall knowledge of the language.(Essay, Oral, Paper 2 are all rote learning thats 430 of the 600 marks available in Irish). I would like Irish if the course was like German(obviously the standard/vocab would be much higher, but the same general format/topics to be covered). I'd love to do Irish again, under the new course, and thought by someone who knows a bit of reality and doesnt sit on their high horse whinging about no Poetry etc. After 14 years of learning the supposed first language of the country, I should be quite fluent in it, even if I did pass Irish, I should be able to write what I'm writing now in Irish no bother. I could do it in German after only 6 years of learning it, so why not Irish? Instead all I know is dán, meafair, samhail etc


I would have given anything NOT to have had to do Irish for the LC, but that is because I had a rubbish teacher for the JC, who put me completely off Irish, and then we had to do all that Poetry and Prose crap, I told my Irish teacher, who is what can be best described as a Fíor Gaelgóir, a complete phonatic, basically the Michael Mc Dowell eqivalent of someone who likes Irish, that basically Paper 2 sucked and it was ruining Irish and peoples attitude towards Irish, which I firmly believe it is. He nearly passed out that I could possibly be disinterested in what is the worst section of Irish. He could never understand why people dont want to do Irish. There was just no way you could get him to face reality. I told him that the new course would make such a difference, and that hopefully they would get rid of the liturature, but he was saying then that hew hoped that they would keep it.

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Just make it so that you don't need it to be a primary school teacher anymore.Simple.

What happened to your opinion that Irish should be compusory til Junior Cert?

Enemy Of Fate

emzher wrote:

And therefore no longer teach irish to primary school students and reversing all efforts of the heroes of our country?? Not so simplie I'm afraid!

Oh yes, our great heroes like Parnell and Pearse, ''they weighed so little what they gave, romantic Ireland's dead and gone, its with O Leary in the grave''..........Anyways that nationalism talk is just all bull****, and is only spouted by those who have no real arguments to use.

emzher wrote:

I didn't say that, I was referring, quite obviously, that to wish to get rid of the language, proves that, that sort of society have no respect for their heritage or learning about it for that matter, and therefore no interest in learning, i.e braindead etc

Maybe they just don't have an interest in learning Irish.Maybe they'd rather by learning something useful.And JC 2K3 don't come in and say ''oh but nothing in the leaving is really useful or relevant''.Its still a hell of a lot more relevant than Irish will EVER be.

emzher wrote:

I'll have you note, that farming does not imply lack of money, Many farmers in this country are worth near millions!! More than some high class business people, and If it were a poor profession it would no longer be in existance! Some of the wealthiest peole I know, are farmers!

But see they're rich because of their land, not because of the money they make from farming.Theres a big difference.

emzher wrote:

To class farming as a "poor tradition" is quite biased of you!! You have fallen into the trap of believing a quite general stereotype!

Not really.Bar a very small miniority, farmers are (for the most part) poor.They have the ability to be quite wealthy by selling their land, but of course as long as they want continue farming they'll keep their land and as a result, they'll remain poor.

emzher wrote:

So to conclude, yes, why would one get rid of farming??

When the hell did I say to get rid of farming?I like my beef dammit!

Enemy Of Fate

JC 2K3 wrote:

What happened to your opinion that Irish should be compusory til Junior Cert?

That was merely the compromise i'd be satisfied with.If I had it completely my way, the entire mandatory irish thing would be completley removed.

JC 2K3

E92 wrote:

As for whether Irish should be complusory, the country has had independence from Britain since 1949,and a free state since 1922, and we have made no real effort to revive Gaeilge.

In times of Economic depression it is not viable to spend money on reviving a language.

In 1922 it was imperitive to establish democracy and law and order in the country, and from then until the mid ninties our economy wasn't exactly in good shape.

Now, however, we have the resources to promote the language, and bit by bit it's growing.

Whether the explosion of Gaelscoileanna is an elitist thing or not, it shows that the next generation will have a much higher rate of fluency than this one, and if they continue to grow, we could have a high percentage of bilingual people in the next 10-20 years.

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

That was merely the compromise i'd be satisfied with.If I had it completely my way, the entire mandatory irish thing would be completley removed.

You just have a grudge for no reason and refuse to see the world in any other way besides your narrow, cynical and seeminly pragmatic mindset.

Haven't a Clue

As I said 200 odd posts ago, Irish should of course be kept mandatory, however, the method in which it's taught should be changed. They need to stop bringing up old-fashioned awful stories like Lig Sinn i gCathú and an Bhéan Óg, old-fashioned poems like Uirchill na Chreagain and Stair na Gaeilge. They need to have a clear vision on the future of Irish instead of focusing on the past.

Enemy Of Fate

JC 2K3 wrote:

You just have a grudge for no reason

No reason?I like to think that the 100s of hours wasted studying irish provide me with adequte reason.Also my view is neith cynical nor narrow.Its merely practical and sensible, which is more than I can say for a great many people who say things like ''Irish should be kept mandatory because people died for it''.Now I know thats not the stance you take JC 2K3, but it seems to be an excuse (yes thats not right, its merely an excuse, and a poor one at that, and not an adequete reason) that many defenders of Irish seem to take.

E92

The other big problem with Irish is that those who like Irish cant possibly understand how the rest of us dont like our own language. That really pisses me off. I really like Maths, but I dont go boasting about how 'wonderful' Maths is and asking how people cant possibly understand it. Its a bloody tough subject if you dont like it. [sic]I mean like how can anyone not get the Maclaurin Series(one of the toughest things IMO on HL Maths for those of you who do OL)? Or how could anyone bring themselves to the shame of using a calculator to do simple multiplication when like multiplying 16*25 is SO simple you could do it in your head?[/sic] If you find Maths tough or dont like it, how would you feel if I actually meant what I just said there? Exactly. The way those who want madatory Irish carry on is the equivalent of how most people would feel to my statements above. They'd want to drive a 10 foot pole through you, and rightly so. And they way the Gaelgóirs go on is the same. Ye are yer own worst enemies.

Haven't a Clue

I don't see anyone saying Maths shouldn't be a mandatory subject though. Mightn't like it, but it's mainly due to the huge gap in standards required for higher and ordinary which pisses people off imo.

cossyx

It's a bad state of affairs when students leave secondary school feeling they have a better knowledge of the european language they are studying than Irish (and judging by conversations I've had with friends this is the case), personally I like both irish and french but my level of french is much higher because we learn how to talk and write about topical issues in french..politics, racism, pressure on teenagers etc. yet we spent the whole year in irish learning about poems and stories and let's face it will we ever use what we know about Maigdileanna or Uirchill again or the stories? doubt it! Imo students would much prefer Irish if the course was changed, maybe they could drop the poems and stories and the bloody stair na gaeilge!!!:D I think if it was made mandatory a lot more people would do it than expected!

cossyx

I mean like how can anyone not get the Maclaurin Series(one of the toughest things IMO on HL Maths for those of you who do OL)
Without a doubt Maclaurin is the hardest, well one of the hardest things to do in maths...I agree with you there!!:D

E92

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'd personally hate for Ireland to turn into an entirely multicultural, globalised, soulless country. Having a native language is core to having a cultural identity and right now compulsory Irish for the Leaving is one of the main ways of ensuring that our people speak at least some Irish.

That may I say is a very old fashioned view. I expect to hear that from my Granny! But yes we do need to preserve our culture and language. I think its fantastic to see all the Poles and Lithuanians in the country. There are now more Poles in the country than there are people living in Limerick. I dont want to see a situation where we go down the road of France, and the way the people of African origin are outcasts in society. Or the way the Turks dont get on with the Germans. Similar situation to France.

Ironically we should learn Irish cause they are here. I'm all for immigrants settling, but they have to learn and respect our cuastoms and ways and naturally vice versa. However ensuring that our traditions are preserved is NOT best achieved by forcing people to learn Irish. I favour a system that rewards people to learn the cúpla focail, not forces them. Why not change the points system to give bonus points for Honours Irish and Maths? Like UL used to give up 40 bonus points for Honours Maths. Why not do that for Irish, and bring it in the year the new course comes in? Then there would be a huge incentive for people to become proficient in Irish. Or make it mandatory for all signs in shops etc to be bi-lingual, like Tesco do? At least then people would see Irish, and see that it exists and is there.

Marshy

JC 2K3 wrote:

Whether the explosion of Gaelscoileanna is an elitist thing or not, it shows that the next generation will have a much higher rate of fluency than this one, and if they continue to grow, we could have a high percentage of bilingual people in the next 10-20 years.

While I share your desire to see the language being spoken more prevalently I just think forcing a language upon someone (for the LC) isnt the answer.

In my school, 15 out of 90 guys do HL Irish. The rest, 5/6 I make it just sit in pass for 2 years having a laugh. Quite stupid really. Will that genuinely promote the growth of the language. Doubtful.

But what might is improving the image among younger people so there isnt such apathy. People seem to get put off at an early age in many cases.

emzher

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Also my view is neith cynical nor narrow.Its merely practical and sensible, which is more than I can say for a great many people who say things like ''Irish should be kept mandatory because people died for it''.Now I know thats not the stance you take JC 2K3, but it seems to be an excuse

Why do you think so many people died for it?? Because it's important, they hardly thought, "oh here lets be passionate about something, ah yeah the Irish language, i'd like to die defending it" They had reason behind it!!!! And didnt just write it off, like you are! JC 2K3, is right you have an apparent grudge for no reason, perhaps you were tought it by the sterotypical teachers I talked about before?? And I too was victim of that, becuase i had a non-sensical teacher whoe could barely speak the language herself!! Anyway Irish is SOFT as a subject, its the most predictable paper and marks are thrown at you for paper 2!! Cumas Gaeilge is worth someting like, 25 out of the180. The oral?? 150 for a 15 minute chat, which is 20 marks less than all the work put in for paper 1!! Got me my A1 last year, and hopefully again this year!


Yeats is right, Romantic Ireland is dead and gone, and thats why we must attempt to revive it!! And does he not praise those for what they did??
"They weighed so lightly what they gave,But let them be they're dead and gone, They're with O'Leary in the grave." I believe the quote goes... yes let them be, they did the country proud!! Yeats too was also a very patriotic man!!

I wouldn't be so rigid on the belief that its only land that is generating money, it is used to create the saleable product, but milk produce brought in billions last year!

Anyways that nationalism talk is just all bull****, and is only spouted by those who have no real arguments to use.

How?? There arguments based on years of history, what true leaders of our country did, backed up by FAR more evidence than any point you've made!! I don't understand how you can write of years of history..

Marshy

emzher wrote:

Why do you think so many people died for it?? Because it's important, they hardly thought, "oh here lets be passionate about something, ah yeah the Irish language, i'd like to die defending it" They had reason behind it!!!! And didnt just write it off, like you are!
Yeats is right, Romantic Ireland is dead and gone, and thats why we must attempt to revive it!! And does he not praise those for what they did??
"They weighed so lightly what they gave,But let them be they're dead and gone, They're with O'Leary in the grave." I believe the quote goes... yes let them be, they did the country proud!! Yeats too was also a very patriotic man!!

But think about. Would all these people have wanted to see students lazing at the back of a classroom in pass irish having a laugh, treating the subject as a joke? I think not, they'd want to see the language valued as it is by the students who'd take it on if it were optional.

emzher

I think one of the greatest quotes speaks for itself

"TIR GAN TEANGA, TIR GAN ANAM"

Or make it mandatory for all signs in shops etc to be bi-lingual, like Tesco do? At least then people would see Irish, and see that it exists and is there

Sure, it shows Irish is there, but that is not making full use of the language, showing the Irish for bread is hardly what was fought for years ago, but I will agree that it is increasing the awareness of Irish but far greater measures need to be implemented, it's a nice "on the side"

As I said before, it is safe to say that you can be sure that everyone who has lived in this country and gone through this education system has an understanding for thr irish language, whether large or small!!!!!!

emzher

Marshy wrote:

But think about. Would all these people have wanted to see students lazing at the back of a classroom in pass irish having a laugh, treating the subject as a joke? I think not, they'd want to see the language valued as it is by the students who'd take it on if it were optional.

I don't think it was ever intended that students would be sitting down the back of the class messing and what not!! Then again, why does the school allow it!! The pass classes in my school wouldnt dare to talk, the focus is to learn not to mess, and plus too much respect was held for the teachers!! Which brings us full circle in the conclusion that the root of the problem is with the teachers, not teaching it right!!!