Should Irish be mandatory for Leaving cert?

JC 2K3

E92 wrote:

the Maclaurin Series(one of the toughest things IMO on HL Maths

It's beautiful though.

One of the more amazing things I've learned in school.

E92 wrote:

That may I say is a very old fashioned view. I expect to hear that from my Granny!

Old fashioned? In ways perhaps, but not really.

It's more a case of globalised, overtly-capitalistic monoculturalism begins to take hold of the world and suddenly we realise that we've allowed a new regime to take power and our freedom is only an illusion.

My way of thinking is that uncommercialised cultural nationalism helps to give the two fingers to globalisation and multiculturalism. Ok, ideally there'd be a massive restructuring of the world and people of similar mindsets would live together, but pragmatically that ain't gonna happen and we're better off having something in common with the people that live around us, ie. we should embrace the culture of the country in which we live, even to a very limited extent. There are ways to economically progress without selling out and becoming a consumeristic nation. Mainstream life is slowly becoming more and more homogenised and boring. There needs to be something to counter that.

Now of course, learning Irish is only a small part of that. But the ability to speak Irish would give a very much needed sense of unity and meaning of being Irish to Ireland. We don't want to become a commercialised mini-America.(well I don't anyway)

Making Irish optional for the Leaving would be a cop out by any government that wants to see Irish getting more widespread use. The "forcing it on people makes them hate it" argument doesn't hold any water. I believe only a select few actually hate it due to the LC and they're people who would ignore it their whole lives after the JC if it were optional anyway.

E92 wrote:

Why not change the points system to give bonus points for Honours Irish and Maths? Like UL used to give up 40 bonus points for Honours Maths. Why not do that for Irish, and bring it in the year the new course comes in? Then there would be a huge incentive for people to become proficient in Irish.

And also a huge incentive to moan about it. I'd like to see how EoF would react to that. People moan about how it's "disgraceful" that people get an extra 5-10% in the LC for answering through Irish.

I wouldn't agree with that idea myself. The bonus for answering through Irish is enough.

Marshy

emzher wrote:

I don't think it was ever intended that students would be sitting down the back of the class messing and what not!! Then again, why does the school allow it!! The pass classes in my school wouldnt dare to talk, the focus is to learn not to mess, and plus too much respect was held for the teachers!! Which brings us full circle in the conclusion that the root of the problem is with the teachers, not teaching it right!!!

So you're saying the teachers should be there to drill irish into people when they have absolutely no interest in learning it. Not realistic at all I'm afraid. The grim reality is that many just dont want to learn it. We just have to accept that. Its no good just trying to force it, that'd just end in a greater dislike I think.

Seinas

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

But see they're rich because of their land, not because of the money they make from farming.Theres a big difference.

eh not true!

Enemy Of Fate

emzher wrote:

Why do you think so many people died for it?? Because it's important

No.They died because THEY thought it was important.THEY did.A large majority of the country (even at that time) didn't reall give a ****.I mean there was a large revival of gaelic culture, but it was only large relative to what it used to be.It wasn't like there were 100s of thousands of people running out to join all these new irish institutions (bar the GAA, which was more about having an accessible sport for the working class rather than devleoping Irish culture).

emzher wrote:

How?? There arguments based on years of history, what true leaders of our country did, backed up by FAR more evidence than any point you've made!! I don't understand how you can write of years of history..

Simple.The ''true leaders of our country'' as you call them fought for freedom for British control.Keyword.FREEDOM.How is it free to have Irish forced upon us for almost 14 years?

Marshy wrote:

But think about. Would all these people have wanted to see students lazing at the back of a classroom in pass irish having a laugh, treating the subject as a joke? I think not, they'd want to see the language valued as it is by the students who'd take it on if it were optional.

Thats exactly what it was like in my school.Hell I was in the 2nd lowest irish class in my year (lowest stream pass class.Only class lower was foundation) and it was complete ANARCHY.No-one did anything, and everyone just laughed when she tried to hand out homework.Only one person in the entire class passed the mocks, and that was only with 43%!!So for EVERYONE in that entire class (and the other pass classes bar one were supposedly very similar) it was just a big waste of 35 minutes for every single day of their time at school.

JC 2K3 wrote:

It's more a case of globalised, overtly-capitalistic monoculturalism begins to take hold of the world and suddenly we realise that we've allowed a new regime to take power and our freedom is only an illusion.My way of thinking is that uncommercialised cultural nationalism helps to give the two fingers to globalisation and multiculturalism.

On a slight side track, why are you so intent on ''fighting the power'' JC?What exactly have you got against modern Ireland?Are you honestly saying that given the choice you would return to the poverty, disease riden land of the pre-1900's Ireland, or even the economic disaster of unemployment and high inflation that was Ireland during the 1980's?Because if so......thats just mad.

JC 2K3 wrote:

And also a huge incentive to moan about it. I'd like to see how EoF would react to that. People moan about how it's "disgraceful" that people get an extra 5-10% in the LC for answering through Irish.

I wouldn't agree with that idea myself. The bonus for answering through Irish is enough.

I would find it absolutely disguisting that just because someone decided to do Irish BY THEIR OWN CHOICE they would automatically get another 40 points, which would make the current CAO system even more of a joke than it already is.Oh and the irish bonus isn't just enough.Its far, FAR more than enough.

Seinas wrote:

eh not true!

Very true.Ever been to Mayo or Donegal?

E92

Marshy wrote:

So you're saying the teachers should be there to drill irish into people when they have absolutely no interest in learning it. Not realistic at all I'm afraid. The grim reality is that many just dont want to learn it. We just have to accept that. Its no good just trying to force it, that'd just end in a greater dislike I think.

Thats exactly the reason why it should NOT be compulsory.
@JC 2K3 you said you don't want us to become more Americanised. I'm totally opposed to any attempts to make us more Americanised than we already are. We are the most Americanised country in Europe.

However the Americans are great believers in compulsion and stictness. Look at the way in America you can get sent to jail for 40years for robberies. Do they have less social problems than we have? Do they have less crime than we have? Absolutely not. Countries which have a very liberal attitude in terrms of punishments have the least amount of problems. I have long held the view that we should be allowed drink at 16 in the eyes of the law, because you only need to look at the continent and the way they are so much better in terms of people of our age binge drinkng, and being a nucense to the rest of society. And what age can they legally drink at? 16 of course.

Anyway the reason I went rambling is to say that by extension the same principle applies to compulsory Irish. Being less authoritarian can, and as has been shown in the continent achieve exactly the opposite of what the critics said it would achieve(execpt for Holland and drugs of course, theres always exceptions to the rule, but most of the time it works).
PS, I do like the Maclaurin Series, one of the more interesting topics in Honours Maths for me, but the point I was making is that it is very difficult(which it is, containing a power series, differentiation(chain rule), factorials and convergancy all in one), if you like Maths you'll love uit, if you hate Maths, its impossible and and makes you hate Maths all the more. And telling people you like one of the most hated parts of maths is going to turn theem off Maths even more.

JC 2K3

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

On a slight side track, why are you so intent on ''fighting the power'' JC?What exactly have you got against modern Ireland?Are you honestly saying that given the choice you would return to the poverty, disease riden land of the pre-1900's Ireland, or even the economic disaster of unemployment and high inflation that was Ireland during the 1980's?Because if so......thats just mad.

Of course not.

I find it odd that whenever I make a point of not wanting to live in an overtly consumeristic, globalised country, people presume I'd rather live in the depression of the 80s, which of course, I wouldn't.

What don't I like about modern Ireland? The excessive consumerism, the emphasis on material wealth, the dominance of certain brand name goods and overtly large corporations, the relative apathy towards anything cultural that's not a mainstream fad, the general homogenisation of life, the gap that's growing between social classes and the snobbery that comes with it....

There are ways to advance economically without losing a sense of cultural identity.

JC 2K3

E92 wrote:

Thats exactly the reason why it should NOT be compulsory.
@JC 2K3 you said you don't want us to become more Americanised. I'm totally opposed to any attempts to make us more Americanised than we already are. We are the most Americanised country in Europe.

However the Americans are great believers in compulsion and stictness. Look at the way in America you can get sent to jail for 40years for robberies. Do they have less social problems than we have? Do they have less crime than we have? Absolutely not. Countries which have a very liberal attitude in terrms of punishments have the least amount of problems. I have long held the view that we should be allowed drink at 16 in the eyes of the law, because you only need to look at the continent and the way they are so much better in terms of people of our age binge drinkng, and being a nucense to the rest of society. And what age can they legally drink at? 16 of course.

Anyway the reason I went rambling is to say that by extension the same principle applies to compulsory Irish. Being less authoritarian can, and as has been shown in the continent achieve exactly the opposite of what the critics said it would achieve(execpt for Holland and drugs of course, theres always exceptions to the rule, but most of the time it works).

1)Compulsory Irish up until second level cannot be compared to prison sentences.
2)Higher prison sentences in America just show that higher prison sentences don't stop a problem that was already there.
3)I firmly believe in lowering the drinking age to 16.
4)The situation in Holland is an extremely good one and only right wing propoganda suggests otherwise.
5)How can you call yourself a member of Fine Gael and be opposed to a harsh punishments policy?

E92

JC 2K3 wrote:

1)Compulsory Irish up until second level cannot be compared to prison sentences.
2)Higher prison sentences in America just show that higher prison sentences don't stop a problem that was already there.
3)I firmly believe in lowering the drinking age to 16.
4)The situation in Holland is an extremely good one and only right wing propoganda suggests otherwise.
5)How can you call yourself a member of Fine Gael and be opposed to a harsh punishments policy?

Who said I was a member of Fine Gael? I'm not. Just cause I have an interest in politics and amn't afraid to say so and who I voted for doesnt mean I'm a member, and obviously I dont speak for the Blueshirts. And who says that Fine Gael people have a conservative view on things? Fine Gael is quite liberal really(though Enda has traditional views on the Church and all that caper I accept), well as liberal as the laws of the land allow. A few years ago Young Fine Gael called for the legal age of drinking to be lowered to 16. In doing so they ensured that it will be put off the agenda for ages. The Irish people are totally opposed to it. The was uproar when YFG suggested it, and normal FG wasted no time in condeming it, not necessarily because they were against it(well its nevitable some were obviously), but the notion that anyone would want to malke alcohol more accessible to the public is likely to be a huge liability for the party. Anytime people have tried the Euopean model on this sort of thing it has been firmly rejected by the public. Hence the tougher policies on crime. Anyway Fine Gael always was the Law and Order party, and in the eyes of the public, Law and Order means tougher sentences, sometimes valid, usually not. If FG didnt do that then they'd be accused of getting rid of something that the party was always fone of. Its a catch 22 situation.
And I completely agree with FG that householders should be allowed to defend themnselves appropriately if a robbery takes place(a FG proposal), and the idea of tagging people who are arrested for serious crimes(since 40% of those on bail commit a crime while on bail). The Irish want US style prison sentences.
Remeber it was Fine Gael that tried to introduce divorce(twice), and it was rejected by the people once and only got narrowly passed on round 2. You learn from your 'mistakes'.

When you try something different to the norm, even if its right, its rejected by people in this country, and then they will complain that all parties are the same....

I'm sorry I'm after taking this totally off topic, but I felt it was necessary to defend my turf:) .

Nehpets

I wouldn't lower the drinking age. At 16, people will still binge drink. /offtopic completely

sdanseo

I'm not going to read all 13 pages of this, but seeing as I've just come accross it, be nice to me if I repeat anything that's been said before. As such I'll keep it brief.

Enemy of Fate wrote:

Simple.The ''true leaders of our country'' as you call them fought for freedom for British control.Keyword.FREEDOM.How is it free to have Irish forced upon us for almost 14 years?

The true leaders of our country fought for an Irish Republic, of which Irish would be the primary language. If you believe in the foundation of this country and if you care about your history at all, you'll accept that we should embrace our cultural heritage, not let it die completely because we're not bothered.

Irish is taught badly. (guess why I'm in OL :rolleyes:). Personally I'd love to do HL but wasn't a studious person and dropped at JC...that doesn't mean I don't love the language and I'd never choose not to do it at all. Many people study a subject for two years or less and get an A1 in Honours Leaving Cert. There's no reason whatsoever why the number of people getting the same grades in irish should be so much lower given that they've studied it (voulantarily or otherwise) for most of their lives - even sponging could do you.

To be clear on what I mean by taught badly: The Irish curriculum atm seems to wean out the slackers before JC - in most subjects you can get A/B at HL in JC, and most people do HL - and then it starts getting tough. For me anyway, and in my school in general, the OL class was full by JC.

Irish is the national language of Ireland. It appears on every roadsign, public document, and if you're good enough at it you get a 10% bonus in your leaving. It would be completely unacceptable for it not to be compulsory. For those who need to pass but are genuinely finding it difficult, there's foundation level. I see no reason why the current system should be changed, bar overhaling the curriculum completely.

JC 2K3

E92 wrote:

<long post>

Fair enough, I presumed you were a member due to your sig. YFG is not FG. And I was talking specifically about your views on prison sentences. I saw many Fine Gael posters up saying "Harsher sentences for criminals" over the course of the election campaign.

E92

JC 2K3 wrote:

Fair enough, I presumed you were a member due to your sig. YFG is not FG. And I was talking specifically about your views on prison sentences. I saw many Fine Gael posters up saying "Harsher sentences for criminals" over the course of the election campaign.

Thats grand. I know you were talking about prison sentences, but I felt it was necessary to mention the suff related to it like tagging suspects. I know you said I like going off in a tangent, but only because I'm trying to justify my position on something. Instead of saying I'm in favour of this or that and then having nothing to justify it;) . You'd be absolutely right in thinking that my views on things like that bear no relation to those of Fine Gael.You'd be surprised how many people in FG arent necessarily in favour of their own policies too. But as I say needs must, unfortunately you have to sacrifice some of what you actually believe to try and capture the mood of the public and in particular those who might be likely to change their allegiance from another party to your own. Sad I know, and no doubt increases the cynicism of those who are cynical about politics, but in order to do the things you want to do, you have to tell the people some of what they want to hear.

And YFG is very much a part of FG. YFG does have its own independence of course, but they have closer ties with the main organisation than other youth parties. Plus YFG help to shape the policies of the party the most obvious example of this was a proposal on stamp duty, which was suggested by YFG as far as I know. Its not a law into its own hands unlike Labour Youth, where it and Labour proper have policies that are so different(and conflicting) as to make them different parties.

carlowboy

I'm posting here as someone who has done my whole education for 14 years through Irish. I don't think it should be mandatory. The reason is that its a total waste of time on people who have no interest in it. If something is forced on you that you don't want, you're going to hate it. Because of that, I think Irish should be as a choice among students. It has more chance to flourish in that way with only people who want to learn it.

Enemy Of Fate

JC 2K3 wrote:

There are ways to advance economically without losing a sense of cultural identity.

Yeah but they're much slower so no-one cares bout them!

sdonn_1 wrote:

there's foundation level. I see no reason why the current system should be changed, bar overhaling the curriculum completely.

But foundation level is COMPLETELY useless.I don't even think it gives points!Also universities don't accept it as a pass in Irishh, so there is really no point in foundation Irish.

sdonn_1 wrote:

The true leaders of our country fought for an Irish Republic, of which Irish would be the primary language.

No they didn't.They fought for an Irish republic to defend Irish culture, but they knew damn well Irish would never be the primary language of Ireland (again).Even Pearse with his crazy ideas had to realise that.Like I mentioned earlier while the interest in gaelic associations was definitely growing in the early 1900s, it would never reach huge amounts of sucess (except for the GAA, and i've already mentioned why thats different).

Marshy

carlowboy wrote:

I'm posting here as someone who has done my whole education for 14 years through Irish. I don't think it should be mandatory. The reason is that its a total waste of time on people who have no interest in it. If something is forced on you that you don't want, you're going to hate it. Because of that, I think Irish should be as a choice among students. It has more chance to flourish in that way with only people who want to learn it.

I'd agree with that.

carlowboy

I dont think its exploiting our freedom of choice, it's a very minor choice in our lives which is made, that is hughely aiding the revival of the language, and, our culture! Something that the English tried so terribly to rid us of, and almost succeded! I think of it as more of carrying on the tradition of Padraig Mac Piaras, Dubhghlas De h'Ide and Eoin Mac Neill who fought so hard in the plight of its resurection!!

I completely disagree. People hate gaeilge their whole lives because they were force fed it in school. Its as simple as that. Now that's hardly going to revive the language is it? The government needs to do something about it, and maybe if they're not going to make it an option, I suppose giving so many marks as they will be for the béal-triail will be a step in the right direction. You should do irish because you want to. Not because you're made to. I would be the kind of person who wants to do Irish.

analyse this

emzher wrote:

I dont think its exploiting our freedom of choice, it's a very minor choice in our lives which is made, that is hughely aiding the revival of the language, and, our culture! Something that the English tried so terribly to rid us of, and almost succeded! I think of it as more of carrying on the tradition of Padraig Mac Piaras, Dubhghlas De h'Ide and Eoin Mac Neill who fought so hard in the plight of its resurection!!!

But, in a way, isn't what the English did to us all those years ago what the Irish government is doing now? Granted, they are going about it by different means, but,essentially, its the same. Both are essentially forcing a culture upon us, with no consideration for our views and responses to them. Also, I'm not sure what your interpretation of 'revival' is but would you consider the current state of the irish language a revival? Just because people study it doesn't necessarily mean it has been revived. There has to be a passion and an enjoyment involved which clearly isn't the case for the most part.

analyse this

What don't I like about modern Ireland? The excessive consumerism, the emphasis on material wealth, the dominance of certain brand name goods and overtly large corporations, the relative apathy towards anything cultural that's not a mainstream fad, the general homogenisation of life, the gap that's growing between social classes and the snobbery that comes with it....

Why do people associate consumerism with cultural and spiritual starvation?

Enemy Of Fate

analyse this wrote:

Why do people associate consumerism with cultural and spiritual starvation?

Because they're tree hugging hippies.

Seinas

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Very true.Ever been to Mayo or Donegal?

My dad is a very wealthy farmer, and its not from selling land!


btw.. how offtopic is this getting?!

Enemy Of Fate

Seinas wrote:

My dad is a very wealthy farmer, and its not from selling land!


btw.. how offtopic is this getting?!

MAJORITY.The MAJORITY of farmers are not very wealthy.Also in answer to your second question, very.

carlowboy

The term "the english" is being bandied about a lot in this thread when its not really correct. Its more "british" than just "english" that ruled Ireland.

emzher

Enemy Of Fate wrote:

Very true.Ever been to Mayo or Donegal?

Not true at all infact, I'm in private school, and the majority of students are children of farmers, from Mayo, Donegal, Leitirm, Sligo etc. Also the majority of them drive their own '07 Golfs, Audis, and even Mercedes and the ones that don't are seen pulling away to go home in Range Rovers, and even Ferraris!! But I suppose you could be right, in a sense, The tradition of the "poor farmer" is no longer being carried on, quite the contrary infact!!

MAJORITY.The MAJORITY of farmers are not very wealthy

The MAJORITY of farmers would not be farmers, if they were not hailing a deceant income!! You never specified the MAJORITY anyways in your original argument about this, you classed every farmer as poor!! The MAJORITY of farmers i know, are indeed extremely wealthy, and as for the poor ones, I don't know even one!!

To class farming as a poor profession is very narrow minded to say the least! And would cause alot of upset for the Irish nation!!

GerryRyan

I'm seeing the 'it should be changed, or taught differently' argument on most of these posts - but what do you all mean by this?

As in the same way as French/German? or more emphasis on the oral side of things? Doesn't really bother me now, seeing as the exams have come and gone, just curious ...

<edit> Personally, I don't mind the language itself,even thought I'm not great at it. The whole experience of being force-fed it is what puts most people off.
That said, there's nothing worse than going abroad and not being able to speak your own language, like others around you, a sad state of affairs imo.

I'll have no problem picking up a Foinse or reading www.beo.ie the odd time and taking new words and phrases to learn ... even when I know it's hard to find someone to chat with.

Dean-16

it shouldnot be! i was so bad at it i had to drop to foundation level! now thats embarrasing!

cheater

i don't know if anyone has said this already because frankly i couldn't be bothered reading all the posts, but ya i think irish should be kept mandatory, but only the language itself, i think studying the poetry and pros and stair na gaeilge should be a separate subject, IRISH LITERATURE perhaps, because frankly i hate that, but I'd love to be able to speak irish fluently, and thats what turns me off irish having to learn all that sh*t, well anyways thats just my opinion!

OctavarIan

cheater wrote:

i don't know if anyone has said this already because frankly i couldn't be bothered reading all the posts, but ya i think irish should be kept mandatory, but only the language itself, i think studying the poetry and pros and stair na gaeilge should be a separate subject, IRISH LITERATURE perhaps, because frankly i hate that, but I'd love to be able to speak irish fluently, and thats what turns me off irish having to learn all that sh*t, well anyways thats just my opinion!

Language and literature share the same bed.

óbriain1988

i think it should stay mandatory... the people who don't like it can pass the ol exam fairly easily and i'm sure they'll be happy to have cúpla focal anyway. the reason i think it should is because with the points system if someone has to choose between irish and a subject they find easier then they might not pick irish, thinking instead of how to maximise their points... this'd be a sad case if they like the language and aren't given an opportunity to learn it from state education because other people don't want to bother with it.... so the whole "they can do it if they like it" type of argument is pure sh*te, because liking something goes out the window if someone has to pick and choose to help them to get a course... liking something doesn't guaruntee you're going to be better at it than other subjects and people who are in this situation should not be discriminated against because of this! it does no one any harm to be there... and might even help people appreciate it... i myself would've dropped it after 3rd had i been given the chance but it's one of my favourite subjects now... (well was...)

a radical overhaul of how it's taught needs to be done alright though, without a doubt... there are serious problems with a system when it leaves people writing things like "i never have to do irish again, YES!" on their bebo accounts.... but making it optional doesn't solve this.... it'll only add more problems.

gaeilgegrinds

There is presently a huge overhaul taking place, hence the reason there is now 40% for the Oral from this years incoming first years. I use radically different methods to teach Irish and have never had a bad result in my class. That is simply not an option for me as an educator. As a result all of my students at least like it, I'm not saying they all love it but some do. Yes the teaching methods are somewhat to blame but as I said, this is not that difficult to do.

Naikon

&#243 wrote: »

the reason i think it should is because with the points system if someone has to choose between irish and a subject they find easier then they might not pick irish, thinking instead of how to maximise their points... this'd be a sad case if they like the language and aren't given an opportunity to learn it from state education because other people don't want to bother with it

LOL, how would this be a sad case?
I dropped Irish like a hotcake after my exemption, and because I took up Physics in its place, this subject has proved more useful to me personally both for points and a better subject choice for my particular career path.
Irish until JC should be mandatory, after that let people decide themselves if they want to learn a language which could **** up their college place.

Making it mandatory isn't helping it.......its slowly killing the Language:)
Personally, I would imagine learning more "adopted" languages is better in the long run, Irish just isn't Economically viable in relation to other languages.
Irish is and will remain a language of the past.