Minister urges teenagers to take up shooting

Clare gunner

In todays sunday telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk.

Our neighbours across the channel..What will they think of next???:rolleyes:
But maybe good news for us??? If "they" do it dont we near enough follow suit???

Sparks

Well, Willie O'Dea's the man to answer that now it would seem CG...

civdef

Lot of rumours of Willie hoping to get Justice this time.

Sparks

Hmmm. Last time he was in there, he decided that pistols were too dangerous for ordinary citizens to hold.



Well, I mean, yeah, obviously :rolleyes:

Clare gunner

If the RUMOURS are going to be true,and all the planets align in the middle of a solar eclipse.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: We might JUST get a approachable justice minister.
BTW he never was min of Justice,just spokesman/shadow,whatever.
Lets wait and see.

sidneyreilly

"National Shooting Week" now there is an idea:rolleyes:

Sparks

Well, yeah, but I think it's one foisted on the NRA/NSRA by necessity as they have a very limited number of open days in their clubs in the UK (as opposed to here where you can bring in non-club members all year round, show them the sport and let them fire a round or two, all without a licence being needed).

sidneyreilly

Are British Clubs really restricted to a fixed number of visitor days? Still a National Shooting Week wouldnt be a bad thing for coverage for the sport if done right. Any takers.

While I'm at it (forgive the off topic) I have for some time now been more then a bit concerned at the average age and gender profile for the disciplines I'm involved in, shall we say it is not too young and somewhat masculine:eek:
Any suggestions from anyone how we can promote things in a way to engourage more younger/female shooters?

maglite

young amm make it cheaper, easyer to get into, advertise?

students are broke
maybe a pay per visit idea to start them into it
tell them about it

Sparks

Are British Clubs really restricted to a fixed number of visitor days?

Two per year if I remember right.

Any suggestions from anyone how we can promote things in a way to engourage more younger/female shooters?

Yup...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054860823
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054862794

sidneyreilly

Pay and use already exists, once accompanied of course. I think if one has a group together one can be more succesful as most would be a bit shy to turn up by themselves Anyone agree?

Any other suggestions? Sparks, your very quiet:)

karen762

Hiya

UK Home Office Approved clubs get 12 guest days per year. NRA did get 2 Open Days per year and 40 guest days (although they have been told they can have more if necessary). Since starting Open Days at Altcar the Open Day number has obviously gone up to at least 3!<G> Only the NRA can have Open Days; HOA clubs can have only have guest days.

Hope that helps

Love

karen

bullets

sidneyreilly wrote:

While I'm at it (forgive the off topic) I have for some time now been more then a bit concerned at the average age and gender profile for the disciplines I'm involved in, shall we say it is not too young and somewhat masculine:eek:
Any suggestions from anyone how we can promote things in a way to engourage more younger/female shooters?

Buddy and myself were at a recent gathering of shooters and
both our thoughts were Gee Shooting must make you old and porky!
Majority of the shooters were grandad like age and rather large individuals.
Not that there is anything wrong with that it just "appeared" to be the
way it is. Would like to see more younger people at age 31 I do
sometimes feel very young compared to some of the other folks
at the range. Which is weird considering I am starting to feel old
everyplace else. (and I have even porked up a bit going from 9 stone
to 12 stone in the last few years)

The Air rifle and olympic type stuff I always got the impression
it was most popular to urban dwellers more so than rurel dwellers.
Of course I have Zero evidence to support my opinion of that.
but it was just something that I noticed.
It also seems to me more popular with younger and a more evenly balanced
gender of people.

Yes I reckon some nice Saucy Hot women folk would be a very pleasent
site to behold. I have seen 2-3 babes with guns the odd time in Midlands.
Myself and two other people I have spoke to recently have all mentioned
how they would like to drag....I mean bring along their girlfriends to a
days shooting but they kinda lack the interest. My own girlfriend
always refused to come along saying its a boys day out and she'd
be bored to tears after a few minutes.

~B

cantona

Olympic shooting---generally based around univerersity, cadets, pony club etc hence younger profile

F-class, pistol, target rifle--generally expensive and hard to get into ergo affluent middle/older age groups with no money worries, families reared etc

My 2cents worth generally speaking

Clare gunner

Welll,I doubt we will ever get the cast of Rock&Roll pt 2 Sexy Girls,Sexy Guns,cast around here ever....:D
[Gun Dealers ..Increase your male customer base by 1000%.Play that video in your store and see gun sales increase:D ]
But,we certainly could get the ladies intrested,by a few ranges,doing a ladies try it out day.
I took my better half to ranges here in the US and Germany,and once she got over the apprenhension of shooting a gun,took to it like a duck to water.It's all about encourgement.Be Bored...dont know until you try it.:)

sidneyreilly

Still not getting suggestions lads? How about an open day, maybe invite a cople of gaa clubs or something?

Sparks

Well, eliminating the "Rock&Roll pt 2 Sexy Girls,Sexy Guns" mindset would probably be a start.

Improving the cosmetic appearance of facilities would also be a good move. Also providing adequate sanitation and other such facilities. The number of clubs where "toilet facilities" comprised a large bush off to one side of the range is just unpleasant.

Providing actual pathways into the sport and formal coaching for all those who want it and promotion of female shooters would be useful.

Most useful of all, I suspect, would be actually asking the few women and girls in the sport what they like most about the sport and doing more of that.

sidneyreilly

Sparks wrote:

Well, eliminating the "Rock&Roll pt 2 Sexy Girls,Sexy Guns" mindset would probably be a start.

Improving the cosmetic appearance of facilities would also be a good move. Also providing adequate sanitation and other such facilities. The number of clubs where "toilet facilities" comprised a large bush off to one side of the range is just unpleasant.

Providing actual pathways into the sport and formal coaching for all those who want it and promotion of female shooters would be useful.

Most useful of all, I suspect, would be actually asking the few women and girls in the sport what they like most about the sport and doing more of that.

Agree 100% on the "rock n Roll" been working on that already!

Cosmetics, facilities etc.. are generally improving all round, but as we know, this is only relative to the individual clubs financial ability, such ability requires more new members or increased subs for existing members (the latter making it even worse for getting youth etc.. in) so here is the catch 22 on this. Also as we know most clubs are currently spending all to meet JSP range standard which is eating into any funds that might diverted to other facilities.

Formal coaching is always available and happens regularly anyhow so this is not a problem.

Sparks, asking the existing shooters their opinions is a fine idea, as you seem to have greater access to youth/female shooters would you be willing to survey them?

Clare gunner

Improving the cosmetic appearance of facilities would also be a good move. Also providing adequate sanitation and other such facilities. The number of clubs where "toilet facilities" comprised a large bush off to one side of the range is just unpleasant.

Providing actual pathways into the sport and formal coaching for all those who want it and promotion of female shooters would be useful.

Most useful of all, I suspect, would be actually asking the few women and girls in the sport what they like most about the sport and doing more of that.

Indeedly it would.
BUT where is this money going to come from???
Our liscenses?Club fees? The National lottery?:( Folks,we just about have basic firing facilities around here.Not to worry about the fineiries.Lets get some sort of facilities first for shooting set up first.

dimebag249

I agree with Mr. Gunner. If someone wants to shoot because they like the cosmetics of a club... well I wouldn't want them to shoot! It's a bit sexist to suggest that wimmin don't shoot because they're afraid of getting a bit mucky or breaking a nail. Thay're not all porcelain dolls ya know! I've heard say some of them even play contact sports! Like, er, camogie. Though I will allow the generalisation that females like flushing toilets.

N.O.I.P.

dimebag249 wrote:

Though I will allow the generalisation that females like flushing toilets.

Should I assume you mean "females like toilets that flush" and are not implying that women are beset with a strange compulsion to randomly flush toilets

Sorry couldn't resist but I actually do have something constructive to add.
While I wouldn't be classified as a shooter as of yet, it is something I'm working on. I think right now the biggest problem facing shooting sports in relation to attracting younger shooters is the fact that to most of us, gun owners are an unknown quantity. Nobody in my family was ever involved in any kind of shooting sport so when I was first invited to a club I was genuinely unsure of what to expect. As I'm sure you are aware the general perception of most is that people with guns are bad.

I believe I saw a thread about a club running a charity event recently, may I suggest that more of these are run. Something like a clay competition with all proceeds going to the ISPCC. Advertise it in papers, invite RTE and assuming they don't turn up film it yourselves. Bring your wives girlfriends and children, have a BBQ/Picnic games for those not shooting. Shameless self promotion in every media available to you. If people saw gun owners themselves as being helpful friendly upstanding members of the community they would be quicker to take to the shooting sports.

astraboy

N.O.I.P. wrote:

I believe I saw a thread about a club running a charity event recently, may I suggest that more of these are run. Something like a clay competition with all proceeds going to the ISPCC. Advertise it in papers, invite RTE and assuming they don't turn up film it yourselves. Bring your wives girlfriends and children, have a BBQ/Picnic games for those not shooting. Shameless self promotion in every media available to you. If people saw gun owners themselves as being helpful friendly upstanding members of the community they would be quicker to take to the shooting sports.

Excellent idea. Look at how bikers are organized, even though motorbikes are "fast and dangerous" etc etc, people have a good perception of them and this is due to the sheer number of charity events and runs they do. It creates good will towards the enthusiasts from regular people. I think most people would be receptive to shooters once they see how law abiding they are and how paramount safety is.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Indeedly it would.
BUT where is this money going to come from?

Our pockets.

Look folks, it's put up or shut up on this one. Either clubs are willing to expend money now and have faith that their efforts will bring in new members who can build the club (and thus the sport) up, or they're not. If they're not, then asking "gee, what can we do?" isn't really on, because they're not willing to do what it will take.

And as for this "girls shouldn't be so sensitive" malarky, don't be daft. Flushing toilets in a sports club where you don't compete for space with the local flora and fauna are considered to be a basic requirement of a club's facilities in every other sport - but they're the exception in shooting. That's disgraceful (and quite disgusting most of the time, and embarressing as all hell if you bring a guest to the range). And I gotta tell you - to me that means it's not a club, it's a place where ould fellas go on a sunday morning to escape their wives, have a gossip and maybe fire off a shot or two. And that's not something I want to be a part of. And the fact that the average age of shooters in Ireland is going up every year - and the gender imbalance - says that I'm not alone in this.

One of the major changes in Irish society in the past few decades is that we've gone from being a fairly relaxed sort of bunch of people to being a lot more focussed. Maybe too much so, in fact, but that's another debate. What's relevant here is that expectations from sports have changed. Look at the GAA. It's not a group of lads who like football having a kick-about anymore. Go into a gym in dublin at six in the morning and you'll find schoolkids doing weights as part of their GAA training. Look a the training the county players do and it'll scare you. But more than that, it's all organised. There's a goal in mind, a plan to get there, and several people all working on it. That's the bit that sucks people in and keeps them - the sense that there's a shared collective goal, that there's a programme, structure, a clear path to that goal. We don't have that.

In shooting, there's really no formal coaching right now. I'll challange anyone who says there is to answer the following:

• When are your formal coaching sessions?
• How long does the course last?
• How much does it cost for the course?
• Who accredited your course?
• Who accredited your coach?
• How many places are there on the next course and when does it start?

Formal coaching programmes can answer those questions without much thought. What we have in Ireland, for the most part, is a few lads who've been shooting for years and who give a bit of a dig-out with training to people who want it and know enough already to find them. It's not the same thing.

And for younger shooters today, that's not enough. All of the experiences with college shooters and pony club shooters I've had in WTSC and DURC over the past 14 years says that if there's a collective goal, a plan to reach it, formal training sessions, and that whole structure; then people dive into it and achieve great things and enjoy themselves in the process. But it requires a fundamentally different mentality to the one we have right now - it's project management versus line management if that analogy helps.

Basicly, stop thinking of shooting as that hobby you have where you wander down to the range every other sunday if it's sunny and you feel like plinking for an hour or so, and start thinking of it as training for a specific competition - and start behaving as though it was important enough to spend money on - and you'll see your club improve enormously. There are other things you'll need to do along the way, but without that initial mindset change, you're stuffed before you begin.

Hezz700

I'm not a member of any club or range so i cannot comment, buti must say, "very well said Sparks"

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Our pockets.

Look folks, it's put up or shut up on this one. Either clubs are willing to expend money now and have faith that their efforts will bring in new members who can build the club (and thus the sport) up, or they're not. If they're not, then asking "gee, what can we do?" isn't really on, because they're not willing to do what it will take.

I'd go along with that. There have been many people on here complaining about the cost of membership in clubs, associations etc., when they seem to forget that the money is pumped directly back into the sport. Clubs are not there to make a profit, rather they want to keep improving the facilities for their members so that new members find it easier to join, and the load is spread over a larger number.

Sparks wrote:

Look at the GAA. It's not a group of lads who like football having a kick-about anymore. Go into a gym in dublin at six in the morning and you'll find schoolkids doing weights as part of their GAA training. Look a the training the county players do and it'll scare you. But more than that, it's all organised. There's a goal in mind, a plan to get there, and several people all working on it. That's the bit that sucks people in and keeps them - the sense that there's a shared collective goal, that there's a programme, structure, a clear path to that goal. We don't have that.

I think you'll find the scholkids doing weights are for rugby, not GAA. Some of the GAA training would have you scratching your head. I know one county team which spends a great deal of it's training time running around the pitch.

Sparks wrote:

In shooting, there's really no formal coaching right now. I'll challange anyone who says there is to answer the following:

• When are your formal coaching sessions?
• How long does the course last?
• How much does it cost for the course?
• Who accredited your course?
• Who accredited your coach?
• How many places are there on the next course and when does it start?

This is a numbers game. There may be no more than a couple of thousand people shooting on ranges in this country fragmented into as many as twenty or more different disciplines. In GAA even the smallest club will have over a hundred members, all doing the same thing. Finding coaches is a far simpler matter in those circumstances.

Sparks wrote:

And for younger shooters today, that's not enough. All of the experiences with college shooters and pony club shooters I've had in WTSC and DURC over the past 14 years says that if there's a collective goal, a plan to reach it, formal training sessions, and that whole structure; then people dive into it and achieve great things and enjoy themselves in the process.

So why don't they stick with it?

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

I'd go along with that. There have been many people on here complaining about the cost of membership in clubs, associations etc., when they seem to forget that the money is pumped directly back into the sport.

Indeed. In fairness, I think it should be noted that clubs and associations ought to remember to tell their members where their money's going. One of the reasons WTSC's had so much success in fundraising is that the people we fundraise from know what the money's to be spent on before it's donated, and then after it's spent, we tell everyone how much effect it had.

I think you'll find the scholkids doing weights are for rugby, not GAA.

Eh, no. That's not to say they're all GAA or that the rugby lads aren't doing it too, but it was the GAA coaches that were pointing this out in coaching conferences.

Some of the GAA training would have you scratching your head. I know one county team which spends a great deal of it's training time running around the pitch.

And in a few years time, you're going to be seeing any team that ends up in Croke Park for the finals doing weights during half-time. According to the sports science fellas working for the GAA at the moment.

This is a numbers game.

No, it isn't. I take your point, but the numbers have nothing to do with the level of formality in the coaching. Higher numbers might increase the need for formal coaching until it becomes a necessity - but lower numbers do not prevent it.

So why don't they stick with it?

In the college clubs, because of the transition on graduation and the lack of other clubs recruiting (which I can't understand - we see about 200 trained shooters graduate from TCD and UCD every year, and not one club actively chases after them for membership. Even on purely monetary grounds, that's a lost opportunity - on sporting grounds, it's insane).

In junior shooting, the problem has been that we train these kids and after a few years, they can beat anyone in the country fairly readily - and then they stagnate because there's not enough competition until the next batch of juniors shows up from us. International competition works, but only if they're actively training towards a match and the national level structure hasn't supported that for the past decade or two because once you hit national squad level, the club got pretty much cut out of it - with the end result that the clubs tended to either not bother with training in the first place, or to not bother with the national squad.

On the upside, every cycle of shooters coming into air rifle from WTSC pushed the bar up that little bit extra. A decade or so ago, 500 was a score you couldn't get to at all without years of training because that's how we thought it should be. Last year, we had most of the DURC squad breaking 500 in their first six months in training, and about half of them hit it in one match or another (apart from those who went to matches too early, which slowed their progress down). It was a mental block, in other words, not a real one. And that block got pushed from 500 to 550 to 570 and right now it's at about the 580 level. It needs to be pushed again, because the figures show that if you want a medal internationally, you need to be putting in the 595s and more. But it's nothing we haven't done before...

Clare gunner

All very well,But I am going to have to play Devils advocate here.
We CANT compare the GAA to any shooting organisation.THEY are a semi state institution,all they have to do is ask for money and it is forthcoming.
Us,we get fk all from the Govt, and will proably be told to pay more.

You are not comparing like and like Sparks,You are in Dublin with established ranges,set ups etc.That have been there for years and are hopefully now owned by the shooting clubs.

The rest of us poor rednecks ,have a handful around the 26 counties,and are establishing them out of pretty much their own pockets,by renting ,begging,borrowingor stealing, land.Which is a big problem,land is now so expensive it is a well off club that can afford to buy outright.
So is there much point in putting in great facilities,if the landowner come up and says lads you are out of here next month I sold the ol 20 acres for a Million to the developers,or somthing of that ilk.
Until you can own the ground,is there much point in doing anything with it? You need planning permission to put in septic tanks,which could be held up for months,etc.Not much point in building somthing from bricks and mortar,if a cc offical shows up and says it has to come down,hence a porta cabin/caravan club house.
Hence the primitive facilities.Now,unless you can convince somone quit farming and redevelop as a alternative to farming a shooting range,we might be onto a winner with that.But then add on the whole slew of regs that will come with setting up a firing range.Which farmer/landowner will take this on???
So we are already paying "from our own pockets".But maybe we dont have as deep a pockets as some ??
Sure ,we would all like brilliant facilities with everything in them.But the reality is we WONT have these,until
[1] Somone sets up a range as a busisness and runs it as such
[2] We get outside monies to invest in our sports,people can/will only pay so much.
[3] Shooting would want to become as pouplar with the elite as golf,before we would see some top class ranges here.
[4] It has to be affordable [a contradiction to pt 3] to get younger people intrested and willing to participate in it.

As for ladies being shirking violets,etc.Never saw or heard that problem with the fox hunting,horsewomen.:) [some would say they are half men anyway:) ]
It boils down to the fact that some types of shooting are "fieldsports" and a public convience isnt around every field.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Indeed. In fairness, I think it should be noted that clubs and associations ought to remember to tell their members where their money's going.

Well it shouldn't be an us and them situation. We are going to buy X and we are going to need the money to do it should be the order of the day.

Sparks wrote:

No, it isn't. I take your point, but the numbers have nothing to do with the level of formality in the coaching. Higher numbers might increase the need for formal coaching until it becomes a necessity - but lower numbers do not prevent it.

It's not a case of need, there's always a need. It's getting the volunteers to do it, the lower the number participating the lower the number of volunteers.

Sparks wrote:

In the college clubs, because of the transition on graduation and the lack of other clubs recruiting (which I can't understand - we see about 200 trained shooters graduate from TCD and UCD every year, and not one club actively chases after them for membership.

How do you recruit people you never see? And the ones that you do see, balk at the cost once the safety net is removed.

Sparks wrote:

In junior shooting, the problem has been that we train these kids and after a few years, they can beat anyone in the country fairly readily - and then they stagnate because there's not enough competition until the next batch of juniors shows up from us.

Back to numbers again. If there were enough to provide the competition, there wouldn't be a problem raising the bar. I agree that internationals help, especially if you set a score level that you cannot go to them without achieving.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

All very well,But I am going to have to play Devils advocate here.
We CANT compare the GAA to any shooting organisation.THEY are a semi state institution,all they have to do is ask for money and it is forthcoming.
Us,we get fk all from the Govt, and will proably be told to pay more.

Agreed.

You are not comparing like and like Sparks,You are in Dublin with established ranges,set ups etc.That have been there for years and are hopefully now owned by the shooting clubs.

MNSCI is a relatively new club/range. They have sixty acres of land, and are looking to buy more. They started with very little only a dozen or so years ago. And they're not in Dublin

The rest of us poor rednecks ,have a handful around the 26 counties,and are establishing them out of pretty much their own pockets,by renting ,begging,borrowingor stealing, land.Which is a big problem,land is now so expensive it is a well off club that can afford to buy outright.

Nobody said it would be easy. You either need a shooter with some land they're willing to set up a range on, or enough members to put money together to buy some land. A hundred people putting up a grand each is a hundred grand. Get the land, and raise some more, and you could have a lottery grant for 70% of the cost of any permanent structures, planning permission etc.

It's not impossible, just difficult

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

Well it shouldn't be an us and them situation. We are going to buy X and we are going to need the money to do it should be the order of the day.

Yes, exactly right.

It's not a case of need, there's always a need. It's getting the volunteers to do it, the lower the number participating the lower the number of volunteers.

Still, it only takes one or two cracked so-and-so's and you're sucking diesel.

How do you recruit people you never see?

Call up DURC and UCDRC and advertise.

And the ones that you do see, balk at the cost once the safety net is removed.

So don't drop it on them all at once. Keep in mind that they're undergoing massive changes in their life and make allowances for a year or two. Odds are they'll be in the club for much much longer than that anyway, so even on a purely financial viewpoint you'll recoup your losses.

Back to numbers again. If there were enough to provide the competition, there wouldn't be a problem raising the bar.

Well. I think we'd just raise it faster to be honest. I mean, we've successfully raised it several times already with the fewer numbers than we have right now, it's just taken time.

I agree that internationals help, especially if you set a score level that you cannot go to them without achieving.

Hell yes.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

MNSCI is a relatively new club/range. They have sixty acres of land, and are looking to buy more. They started with very little only a dozen or so years ago. And they're not in Dublin

Yup, and add to the list Fermoy and Castlemaine. I'd say add WTSC too, but we don't have a 50m range of our own yet. Hasn't stopped us looking though.

It's not impossible, just difficult

Yup. But worth it!