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Am I hallucinating?

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    #32
    lola_run
    Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭lola_run


    hallelujajordan wrote:
    We don't yet know the make up of the new government but I think you'll find that her party are returned, albeit in a reduced form.

    It's hard to argue that their policies were rejected when for the last 10 yrs FF/PD coalition has been following a joint program for government and FF remains in a position of strength. If anything, the PD's lost this election on the likeability factor . . nobody likes McDowell and they suffered as a result. I'm sure if Harney had entered the campaign as PD leader the party would have polled significantly better.


    By the way, it's PDs. (plural)


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    #33
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    DarkJager wrote:
    We're in for another 5 years of corruption and poorly spent public funds. Thank you to everybody who voted FF, you're obviously blind, largely ignorant and are unaffected by all the crap these guys have done in the last 10 years. Its an absolute disgrace that this pack of thieving, two faced and corrupt liars have got back into power.

    Ah well, you voted them back in. I look forward to hearing you whinge 6 months down the line....

    What utter nonsense ! Why would we whinge 6 months down the line when we have experienced this government for 10 years and are not whinging right now !!


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    #34
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    lola_run wrote:
    By the way, its PDs. (plural)

    Thank you for correcting my grammar . . such useful input into the debate !


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    #35
    lola_run
    Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭lola_run


    hallelujajordan wrote:
    What utter nonsense ! Why would we whinge 6 months down the line when we have experienced this government for 10 years and are not whinging right now !!

    Wake up and smell the coffee!!! Of course, people are whinging. Have you not watched any of those television debates? Have you not been reading the papers?


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    #36
    lola_run
    Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭lola_run


    BigTommyBomb wrote:
    Yes, she can vote.


    As there seems to be some confusion about this, perhaps some kind soul can actually point us in the right direction of the legislation stating this.


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    #37
    BigTommyBomb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭BigTommyBomb


    Well I'm 100% certain that even recent immigrants can not only vote but run for council and dail.

    Ok its just council elections and you have to be a citizen to vote for a general election which I think your wife is entitled to be after being here for more than 5 years.


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    #38
    chopperbyrne
    Registered Users Posts: 11,006 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    She has to be here for five years and then apply for citizenship before she can vote.

    Is she a citizen?

    She can't vote in presidential elections though.

    Always thought that was silly.


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    #39
    daveirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,483 ✭✭✭✭daveirl


    This post has been deleted.


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    #40
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    lola_run wrote:
    Wake up and smell the coffee!!! Of course, people are whinging. Have you not watched any of those television debates? Have you not been reading the papers?

    Yes, I read the papers (particular focus on the election results:) )

    The point I was making was to refute the suggestion (made by DarkJager)that FF voters will whinge about our choice of government in 6 months. We won't. We have 10 years experience with this administration and we know what we are going to get.

    Others will whinge . . as they are doing right now !


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    DarkJager wrote:
    Thank you to everybody who voted FF, you're obviously blind, largely ignorant and are unaffected by all the crap these guys have done in the last 10 years.

    :D

    You're very welcome.

    Would that be the 'crap' on the economy and the North?


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    #42
    lola_run
    Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭lola_run


    hallelujajordan wrote:
    . . here here !

    Strong opposition is nearly as important as strong government and a FF/FG coalition would be practically unopposed in Dail Eireann . . they could pretty much do whatever they wanted.

    On the substantive point, in principle I don't see what the problem is with FF/PD/Ind (It worked pretty well between 97 and 02), plus I would like to see Harney return to health and finish what she has started. However, I'm not sure that the numbers stack up. FF will need three independents. Given their choice, they would bring in Healy-Ray, Flynn and McGrath but Flynn has a bankruptcy hearing on the 11th of June and if found bankrupt she will loose her seat. This means that they will need the support of either Michael Lowry (ex-FG) or Tony Gregory. I don't see either of these options as part of a 'stable' coalition. . . I think the most likely outcome is FF / Green with Trevor Sargeant as our new Tanaiste.



    Okay, you seem to be missing my point. What I find weird is that a party that gets the highest votes has free rein to form a coalition with a party that got significantly less votes, just because it suits them. Surely, the party with the second highest votes should be the one to form a coalition with the major party, as this reflects the way people voted. If this happened, it would be a true democracy. The way things stand FF can pick and choose who they want to be with. What are the rules/laws on government formation?

    And if bogie Bertie needs another 6 votes, how is he going to get them? I mean, the elections are over, aren't they? Basically, he can't be Taoiseach. Hurrah!

    I've just read that FF may choose the Greens, which I would be over the moon about, however, it doesn't reflect the way people voted.

    If the PDs only got two seats in the Dail, it's hilarious that two politicians can actually have a say...


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    #43
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    lola_run wrote:
    Okay, you seem to be missing my point. What I find weird is that a party that gets the highest votes has free rein to form a coalition with a party that got significantly less votes, just because it suits them. Surely, the party with the second highest votes should be the one to form a coalition with the major party, as this reflects the way people voted. If this happened, it would be a true democracy. The way things stand FF can pick and choose who they want to be with. What are the rules/laws on government formation?

    And if bogie Bertie needs another 6 votes, how is he going to get them? I mean, the elections are over, aren't they? Basically, he can't be Taoiseach. Hurrah!

    I've just read that FF may choose the Greens, which I would be over the moon about, however, it doesn't reflect the way people voted.

    If the PDs only got two seats in the Dail, it's hilarious that two politicians can actually have a say...

    As I understand it the rules / laws on the formation of a government ignore party allegiances. The country elects 166 TD's and it is up to a majority of those TD's to elect a Taoiseach whose job it is to form a government. Whether the 83/84 TD's come from one or more parties is not relevant. Each TD holds the same vote in Dail Eireann and has the same mandate.

    I understand your point about smaller parties having disproportionate strength but your proposed model would yield a government with a majority of 129/166. In this scenario one of two things would happen... Either the government could do whatever it wanted practically unopposed or, more likely, the coalition would be so unstable that it would last no more than a year or so and get no work done.


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    #44
    Gosh
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Gosh


    Nationally the electorate voted against the PDs, in Dublin mid-West there was also a -5.9 swing against Mary Harney from 2002 yet she still managed to get in on transfers. To do a deal with the PDs would be another act of 'arrogance' on the part of FF - the Greens with their 6 seats should be the logical choice. Give Trevor Sargeant the Department of The Environment - can't make more of a mess of it then Dick Roche imo.


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    #45
    lola_run
    Closed Accounts Posts: 311 ✭✭lola_run


    Gosh wrote:
    Nationally the electorate voted against the PDs, in Dublin mid-West there was also a -5.9 swing against Mary Harney from 2002 yet she still managed to get in on transfers. To do a deal with the PDs would be another act of 'arrogance' on the part of FF - the Greens with their 6 seats should be the logical choice. Give Trevor Sargeant the Department of The Environment - can't make more of a mess of it then Dick Roche imo.

    Yes, but are us Irish logical?


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    #46
    hallelujajordan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Gosh wrote:
    Nationally the electorate voted against the PDs, in Dublin mid-West there was also a -5.9 swing against Mary Harney from 2002 yet she still managed to get in on transfers. To do a deal with the PDs would be another act of 'arrogance' on the part of FF - the Greens with their 6 seats should be the logical choice. Give Trevor Sargeant the Department of The Environment - can't make more of a mess of it then Dick Roche imo.

    It's only logical if FF and the Greens can agree a joint program for government and form a stable partnership.

    Sargeant fought a campaign on the platform of removing FF from government so you could equally argue that him taking the Greens into a FF led government is 2 fingers up to those who voted Green.

    Also, I think Sargeant would make more sense as a transport minister than environment minister (and I think this is what he will be looking for !)


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    #47
    Lennoxschips
    Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭Lennoxschips


    The Greens would want control of planning, transport and energy decisions.

    FF aren't going to give them control of planning in a million years, because it would mean developers would lose out, which means FF would lose donation money as well as access to dig outs and the like.


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    #48
    Gosh
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Gosh


    hallelujajordan wrote:
    It's only logical if FF and the Greens can agree a joint program for government and form a stable partnership.

    True - but imo more logical than the option of PDs and Independents whether they are of the FF-'gene pool' or not.
    hallelujajordan wrote:
    Sargeant fought a campaign on the platform of removing FF from government so you could equally argue that him taking the Greens into a FF led government is 2 fingers up to those who voted Green.

    Depends on what he's able to negotiate for his party - after all their No. 1 reason for standing in the election was to try and get into government. His 'platform' may have been misguided (imo he was just jumping on the clean-up FF bandwagon just like FG and Labour) and he needs to now stop talking about cleaning up FF (or risk the further wrath of Cowen)[/quote]


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    #49
    John R
    Registered Users Posts: 4,107 ✭✭✭John R


    Gosh wrote:
    Depends on what he's able to negotiate for his party - after all their No. 1 reason for standing in the election was to try and get into government. His 'platform' may have been misguided (imo he was just jumping on the clean-up FF bandwagon just like FG and Labour) and he needs to now stop talking about cleaning up FF (or risk the further wrath of Cowen)

    Did he ever specifically say he wanted to clean up FF, everytime I heard him he said "clean up politics". Perhaps it was Cowen who just assumed he was referring to FF, can't think why he would think that though as we all know FF are completely beyond reproach. :rolleyes:


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