McDowell gone, good or bad? (Vote).

silvine

McDowell was a highly intelligent law maker who certainly had the courage of his convictions. His beliefs might not have been for everyone but he was certainly passionate and vocal about them. He did not care if his decisions harmed his popularity, something rare in a politician today.

McDowell had some great moments and certainly made many positive contributions to the state his party eg "Single Party Government? No thanks" and political debate e.g. flooring Gerry Adams in the debate.

'Mad Mullah' was not a great politician though and his arrogance and self-righteousness did not play well with the people - not that he gave ****. He also had a love/hate relationship with the media and the two delighted in feeding off each other.

I heard him on the Ray D'Arcy show, before the election, griping that people have a funny image of him living in a bunker under government buildings plotting a right wing domination of the county. He had an amusing tale about being asked by a Star photographer to point at something. He opened the paper the next day to see a photograph of himself photoshopped into a Nazi uniform with his gesture made out as a 'zeich heil!'

Stereotypes and intellect aside, bailing out on the PDs, the way he did, was not the hallmark of a great leader. Surely he should have stuck with the party in their hour of need instead of throwing all of his toys out of the pram.

The Irish political landscape will be a duller place without him but many will be glad to see him gone as evidenced by the Shinners singing "Cheerio, Cheerio" at the site of his resignation.

gonk

Cyrus wrote:

like most laws if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

Ask the McBreartys and Frank Short if they feel this way . . .

DublinWriter

T'is feckin' great, pass the peanuts. Jaysus, weird weather lately or wha?

A Dub in Glasgo

Definitely a good day

vallo

Cyrus wrote:

and do you not think this might be a helpful thing in catching criminals?

like most laws if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

:eek:

As a courtesy to those of us with high blood pressure, please use the smilies to denote sarcasm ... you had me going there for a minute!

aequinoctium

we should consider just how boring the dáil will be now with his absence...

irish_bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gosh
And he was the only one to lose his seat ??? No, but he was the only one to use the occasion to 'cry like a baby' and resign - his other candidates were fighting a losing battle and he just ducks out - he could have waited until after the election today to make his statement - would have appeared more honourable ...


Well said!! As usual he played up to the cameras. Tom Parlon was very unhappy about it. He was very open and honest with the reporters gathered around him while McDowell was creating a pantomime. The PDs might have been better with Parlon as their leader. All that rubbish McDowell went on about how much he loves Ireland was sickening. And then he stood outside the car for a minute or 2 waving to everybody. He looked like he was departing the country after being over on a royal visit.



stuff parlon , that guy only got elected on the back of having been the leader of the irish farmers association , he does not have what it takes to be leader of any party and i always knew he would loose his seat

i thought mc dowells farwell speech was very touching

he was a disaster as leader of the pd,s because the man was a pr nightmare
as terry prone said , thier is this brilliant brain he has no sense when it comes to the way he puts himself across , i loved him as a minister , i loved the way he wasnt afraid to call the ira on this criminality when everyone else seemed to think they were sacred cows just because of the peace process but he was awfull in how he handled bertie gate , he marched his army up the hill twice and backed down again , by doing that he vexed FF voters of which the pd,s were relying on for transfers and he also lost the respect of non FF voters who saw him as a toothless tiger and thus they voted for FG or whoever , while i believe micheal mc dowell is a decent man , he could not do the baby kissing politican thing and came across as cold and this is a disastrous traint in a politician , he not only went down but took his party with him and as the PD philosophy has been fostered by both FF and FG and to a lesser extent the other partys now added to the fact that even the tradtionally conservative partys are now like modern ireland much more socially liberal , i think perhaps the pd,s are finished as an entity

history i believe will treat them and him well

Mad Finn

Attractive Nun wrote:

I think that could be said for the PDs themselves, in a way. In a relatively short amount of time, they achieved to a great extent what they set out to in Irish politics. Their economic policies are for the most part now the status quo in this country. The church's influence on Irish politics has waned. And, although admittedly Bertie's financial dealings certainly raise some questions, the corruption that plagued Irish politics when the party was founded has dissipated somewhat. Whether we can thank the PDs for all this is another question, of course, but I think it's probably true to say that the PDs aren't as necessary as they once were. I voted PD in this election, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised or even particularly disappointed if the party remerged with Fianna Fail in the coming years.

Hold on now. That's not what the PDs were set up to do. They were basically the wing of Fianna Fail that couldn't stomach Haughey any more and left to set up their own party. The right-wing economic policy was only bye the bye.

Was Harney a rabid right-winger in her Fianna Fail days? Or Molloy or even O'Malley for that matter?

Nope.

Now that Haughey is pushing up daisies, there's not really a need for the PDs any more.

Liam Byrne

Personally, I'm sick of the PD's "privatise everything" and "shop around" stance, so I'm glad the PDs are dying off.

Now that Haughey is pushing up daisies, there's not really a need for the PDs any more.

THAT aspect of the PDs is far from redundant, given the current controversies and the ongoing tribunals - Haughey wasn't the only rotten apple. But yeah, McDowell bottled it in the run-up to the election; he was entitled to give the benefit of the doubt to Bertie last November (innocent until proven guilty) but when it transpired that Bertie hadn't used the opportunity to tell the full truth, he should have hung Bertie and FF out to dry. So basically, 3 weeks ago, the watchdog lost its teeth and is now rightly put down as it's no longer doing its job. That's not to say that some new watchdog isn't required (it obviously is) but the PDs weren't doing it anymore, for some reason.

As for other aspects of Mr McDowell - I didn't always agree with him, but at least I always knew where he stood so I could make that observation. Too many of the other politicians twist, turn and lie in order to garner support.

McDowell cut through the bull**** with the IRA, and stopped Ahern giving in a few times; he also took some unpopular but necessary stances on other issues. Definitely, there were other stances/decisions that were iffy, but there are many idiots back in the Dáil after making stupid and costly decisions who didn't end up being kicked out.

If those idiots were also gone, I'd say fair enough, but since those idiots are back in, I'd say that McDowell, solely for the fact that you know where you stand with him, is a huge loss - he had his faults, but even with them was far better than most.

DublinWriter

Mad Finn wrote:

Now that Haughey is pushing up daisies, there's not really a need for the PDs any more.

No. The PDs were the bastard child of a major schism in FF that had been brewing since the Arms trial days of 1970.

But there is a real need for a centerist alternative party in this country.

Step back from all the recent general-election hoo-ha and examine the idological differences between FF and FG. I challange anyone to really come up with anything that differentiates the two parties.

As far as I can see the only thing that differentiates FF from FG is a mutual hatred that stems from the Civil War. This is compounded by the fact that most of us on this island still seem to vote for whom our parents voted for.

It still makes me laugh the way people praise McDowell for 'getting tough' on the IRA when the whole Sinn Fein/IRA mechanism had been internally gearing down to go completely into the relm of consitutional politics for the previous ten years.

All McDowell did was so much posturing. Politicians such as Albert Reyonds, John Hume, David Trimble and even Bill Clinton really went out on a limb to bring us the peace we so much enjoy today.

McDowell was a egoist. As much as they tried to hide it from the media, there was a serious split between Harney and McDowell within the PDs. Harney had seen it all before in FF and to my assessment wasn't prepared to go through the same thing again.

Unlike McDowell, Harney had been in politics since she was a teenager and was probably too jaded after her time in FF to go around the whole leadership struggle merry-go-round again.

Ultimately, McDowell will be remembered for 'bursting' the party and sulkily scuttling away from the scene of the accident.

Liam Byrne

DublinWriter wrote:

It still makes me laugh the way people praise McDowell for 'getting tough' on the IRA when the whole Sinn Fein/IRA mechanism had been internally gearing down to go completely into the relm of consitutional politics for the previous ten years.

:eek: News to me - there were still lots of criminal and dodgy activities over those 10 years.

And if McDowell didn't "do" anything, there'd be no reason for SF supporters to be singing "Cheerio".......he must have had some impact, even if it were only for showing up Adams on the debate last week and making people wonder what they might be voting for.....actually, scratch that, since they couldn't vote for Adams even if they were that way inclined.....but you know what I mean.....

Just a pity McD didn't put the same effort into making Bertie-ites wonder what they were voting in as well.......

Húrin

McDowell was relatively genuine, and has done some good for Ireland in his time. But I voted against him because

1) in this campaign he spread lies about my preferred party, the Greens
2) the PDs are among the the forces that are Americanising Ireland and it has to stop.

those are my main reasons

ednwireland

DublinWriter wrote:

But there is a real need for a centerist alternative party in this country.

what another one ?
you can call the pd's alot of things but centerist i would have always classed them as far right in terms of economic (privatise everything no social safety net that sort of stuff) if they're not fair play but thats how they came across to me.

and as for creating loads of legislation so what little of it was enforced so it useless and pointless, legislaing in the dail seems to be an excuse for not doing anythin to me.

very good day for me we can do without politicians like him

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Victor Meldrew

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I get your point, but it's not "getting tough". So the justice minister demands that criminals stop being criminals, that's not being tough , that's doing his job. The fact that Blair and Bertie were willing to concede on every point that defines civilisation is a deeper issue.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

El Stuntman

H&#250 wrote: »

2) the PDs are among the the forces that are Americanising Ireland and it has to stop.

open your eyes Hurin, this has already happened

this 'Americanisation' has brought us unprecedented wealth, does this also have to stop?

sorry for getting OT

Liam Byrne

Victor Meldrew wrote:

I get your point, but it's not "getting tough". So the justice minister demands that criminals stop being criminals, that's not being tough , that's doing his job. The fact that Blair and Bertie were willing to concede on every point that defines civilisation is a deeper issue.

Very very true.....which therefore implies that more politicians should have been like McDowell, no ? At least in this regard ?

He may not have done anything outstanding, but at the risk of repeating myself, the very fact that he "did his job" makes him a lot better than most of the gobdaws that have been voted back in....

The question should, of course, be why those idiots that didn't do their job managed to get back in.....

And yeah, some of that is due to the PD's privatisation/Americanisation policies.....like Noel Dempsey absolutely failing in his job in reigning in eircom, but the fact is that the FF/PDs shouldn't have sold eircom's lines into houses in the first place......

So McD will be missed, but PD policies won't.....

transylman

I remember after the 2002 elections, when Fine Gael experienced a mauling, McDowell said something like extremeise or die. ie The party would need to adopt an extreme left or right position if it wanted to survive. This seemed to be a policy that influenced all his decisions in the PD party. His manipulation of immigration issues, tax policy favouring the rich, his extreme hostility to Sinn Fein and his supposed toughness on crime were all examples of this.

Fortunately for the country this did not wash with the electorate and he is now responsible for almost single-handedly destroying the PDs.

Tim Robbins

transylman wrote:

I remember after the 2002 elections, when Fine Gael experienced a mauling, McDowell said something like extremeise or die. ie The party would need to adopt an extreme left or right position if it wanted to survive. This seemed to be a policy that influenced all his decisions in the PD party. His manipulation of immigration issues, tax policy favouring the rich, his extreme hostility to Sinn Fein and his supposed toughness on crime were all examples of this.

Fortunately for the country this did not wash with the electorate and he is now responsible for almost single-handedly destroying the PDs.

No offense, your argument is poor.
Let's have a closer look:
1. "Manipulation of immigration issues",
what manipulation? also you are begging the question, is manipulation good or bad?
2. "Tax policy" - McCreevy drove Tax policy followed by Cowen not McDowell.
McDowell was justice, Harney health and before that enterprise.
3. "extreme hostility to Sinn Fein?" Again you are begging the question, is that a good or bad thing? In my and many other people's opinion that is a good thing.
4. "Toughness on crime" - well have you had a look at the legislation over the last five years. There has been a rake of it all tough on crime. It would be impossible to get more legislation in than McDowell got.

The problem with McDowell is, for most people, (including yourself judging by that last post) politics is about perception.
You argument is based on your perception not good evidence or logic.
McDowell's PR is poor because he is more concerned with real issues than kissing babies and going to GAA matches.

Victor Meldrew

Tim Robbins wrote:

3. "extreme hostility to Sinn Fein?" Again you are begging the question, is that a good or bad thing? In my and many other people's opinion that is a good thing.
4. "Toughness on crime" - It would be impossible to get more legislation in than McDowell got.

Extreme hostility to SF & the IRA (note i'm not linking them ) is appropriate when they were (untill recently) a threat to the state. therefore, it's no more than his Job. That this "distinguishes" him from Bertie and blair is the real shock. and that the Irish electorate accept this is even more depressing

With respect to Crime, Laws are nothing without gardai to enforce them (our drink driving laws anyone?), and there is no perception that the country is safer.

Mc D. was not that right wing, I'd have liked a bit more steel on occasion,

homah_7ft

Tim Robbins wrote:

It would be impossible to get more legislation in than McDowell got.

I wonder about the quality of the legislation. At times, and I'll freely admit this is a perception, it seemed to be legislation for the sake of it. To be seen to be doing something. Having said that I would have thought it better to have a few less in the centre within the dail. I think overall for the sake of a variety of opinion (or even any opinion) in politics the loss of McDowell's and Higgins' seats is a set back.

Tim Robbins

Victor Meldrew wrote:

Extreme hostility to SF & the IRA (note i'm not linking them ) is appropriate when they were (untill recently) a threat to the state. therefore, it's no more than his Job.

What about the link to the Farc Guerillas in Colombia?

That this "distinguishes" him from Bertie and blair is the real shock. and that the Irish electorate accept this is even more depressing

??

With respect to Crime, Laws are nothing without gardai to enforce them (our drink driving laws anyone?), and there is no perception that the country is safer.

What type of logic is this, you speak for the perception of the country?

Mc D. was not that right wing, I'd have liked a bit more steel on occasion,

Well right wing is really out of date. McDowell is a neo-liberal.

Tim Robbins

homah_7ft wrote:

I wonder about the quality of the legislation. At times, and I'll freely admit this is a perception, it seemed to be legislation for the sake of it. To be seen to be doing something.

You be better off picking some legislation and arguing that.

I think overall for the sake of a variety of opinion (or even any opinion) in politics the loss of McDowell's and Higgins' seats is a set back.

Here here. Agree with you on that.

Victor Meldrew

Tim Robbins wrote:

What about the link to the Farc Guerillas in Colombia?

??

What type of logic is this, you speak for the perception of the country?

I was trying not to troll the SF supporters there and keep it on topic, i'm with you on that one though

"??" Blair and Bertie were alwayys too wiling to bow to the various paramilitary demands..

and finally, I feel less safe that I did 5 years ago, so do most people

homah_7ft

Tim Robbins wrote:

You be better off picking some legislation and arguing that.

I meant purely from an initial perception. That's what a lot of politics is about surely. Not purely what you are doing or have done but what you are perceived to have done.

vallo

Tim Robbins wrote:

Well right wing is really out of date. McDowell is a neo-liberal.

If "right wing" is out of date, surely "left wing" is too.

Where would that leave the slogans on the PD's election posters?

Non-neo-liberal government, no thanks!

If McDowell brands others as "left, far left and leftovers" as he did during the leaders debates, he would surely have to accept the contrasting label right-wing for himself.

Whatever his opinions on who is left and far left, it is now clear that he is the left-overs.

And to answer the original poll:
Good thing.

swiss

I have mixed feelings about McDowell. One one level I found him to be an arrogant bellicose man, and this could be found in his contemptuous treatment of what he sneeringly derided as the left. During the campaign particularly he presented the economic situation in this country as the PDs doing and intimated that any form of government that did not include the PDs would "throw it all away".

However, he had one quality that I find sorely lacking in politics, particularly Irish politics today, that is that he spoke his mind irrespective of whether that was popular or unpopular. Of course, this probably speaks a little bit more to the arrogance I spoke about earlier but I still feel that in a Dáil where Bertie was happy to paint himself as a socialist one minute and a capitalist the next it was refreshing that there was at least one politician who was unrepentent about his credentials.

He did have some notable achievements in terms of legislation (taxi deregulation for example), but for me the biggest disappointment in legislative terms was the shooting down of the café bars proposal by FF members who clearly had vested interests. I thought that particular piece of legislation had the potential to really shake up the pub binge drinking culture so prevalent in Irish towns and cities. Its demise demonstrated to me at least that although the PDs could claim to have introduced innovative proposals, it was really FF who were in the driving seat. I suspect that was part of the overall PD meltdown, a perception of their irrelevance.

transylman

Tim Robbins wrote:

No offense, your argument is poor.
Let's have a closer look:
1. "Manipulation of immigration issues",
what manipulation? also you are begging the question, is manipulation good or bad?
2. "Tax policy" - McCreevy drove Tax policy followed by Cowen not McDowell.
McDowell was justice, Harney health and before that enterprise.
3. "extreme hostility to Sinn Fein?" Again you are begging the question, is that a good or bad thing? In my and many other people's opinion that is a good thing.
4. "Toughness on crime" - well have you had a look at the legislation over the last five years. There has been a rake of it all tough on crime. It would be impossible to get more legislation in than McDowell got.

The problem with McDowell is, for most people, (including yourself judging by that last post) politics is about perception.
You argument is based on your perception not good evidence or logic.
McDowell's PR is poor because he is more concerned with real issues than kissing babies and going to GAA matches.

I'm probably not alone in having these perceptions, and as per my previous argument I don't believe this image was unintentional, and was intended to distinguish the PDs from other Irish political parties.

It's possible that McDowell was unconcerned about image, but I consider this unlikely given his penchant for publicity stunts.

Húrin

El Stuntman wrote:

open your eyes Hurin, this has already happened

this 'Americanisation' has brought us unprecedented wealth, does this also have to stop?

Why should we have to sell out our national identity to be wealthy? Why did nobody else in Europe have to do this? Maybe because the other European countries did not choose to be "closer to Boston than Berlin"?

By Americanisation you may misunderstand me. I'm not talking about the American companies investing in Ireland; I welcome that. I'm talking about the lack of planning in the urban sprawl in Dublin in particular. I'm also talking about the related situation in which everyone has to own a car and spend 3 hours in traffic jams every day cos the gov is going cheap on public transport. I'm also thinking about the dearth of investment in Gaelscoileanna. That's Americanisation.