McDowell gone, good or bad? (Vote).

Tim Robbins

transylman wrote:

I'm probably not alone in having these perceptions, and as per my previous argument I don't believe this image was unintentional, and was intended to distinguish the PDs from other Irish political parties.

It's possible that McDowell was unconcerned about image, but I consider this unlikely given his penchant for publicity stunts.

I think he was just rubbish at PR. But I am not concerned about PR or politicians kissing babies - I think it's silly.

vallo wrote:

If "right wing" is out of date, surely "left wing" is too.

Where would that leave the slogans on the PD's election posters?

Non-neo-liberal government, no thanks!

Yes they are both out of date. The PD's ran the worst campaign in my political memory. I have been following politics since the early 80's.
They are absolutely rubbish at spin so they shouldn't bother with it. They should have campaign on what they had done in the last five years in Justice, Enterprise and two years of Health and let people take it or leave it.
The PDs are aligned with liberals in Europe. Other parties sitting with this group are the Alliance party from the North and Liberal democrats in the UK. Now that's a fact, but the perception of the PD s is far different for most people because the PD s are rubbish at spin.

homah_7ft wrote:

I meant purely from an initial perception. That's what a lot of politics is about surely. Not purely what you are doing or have done but what you are perceived to have done.

Unfortunately that is what politics is about for a lot of Irish people - percerption and that's it. Ask yourself this question? All those people who are glad to see McDowell gone, what are they going to do if the next Minister for Justice does not repeal any of McDowell's legislation? I doubt they'll even notice.

Húrin

Tim Robbins wrote:

the PD s are rubbish at spin.

This only became apparent to me after the election. I thought that they were going to succeed in fooling people that only they have some magical Midas touch when it comes to the economy.

Tim Robbins

H&#250 wrote: »

This only became apparent to me after the election. I thought that they were going to succeed in fooling people that only they have some magical Midas touch when it comes to the economy.

They are strong on the Economy even though that was FF portofolio.
There many examples of the PDs being rubbish at spin:
For example:
1."We are closer to Boston than Berlin"
2. McDowell saying you need social inequality for economic growth. Everyone believes this except comitted communists they just don't say it.

If they were good at spin they'd say
1. We respect the enterprising attitude the US has always had, and that is something we would want to encourage Irish people to do. We want to empower people so that they can say I can instead of I can't.
2. We believe risk taking must be rewarded, otherwise there would be no risk taking and no growth. Inevitably this will mean there will be risk takers who are successful will do better than the rest of us but if there are no risk takers none of us will do any better as there will be no growth. Ultimately, we need a strong economy, so that the state can pay it's bills and provide public services, this means facilitating some element of risk taking.

Colonel Sanders

swiss wrote:

but for me the biggest disappointment in legislative terms was the shooting down of the café bars proposal by FF members who clearly had vested interests. I thought that particular piece of legislation had the potential to really shake up the pub binge drinking culture so prevalent in Irish towns and cities. Its demise demonstrated to me at least that although the PDs could claim to have introduced innovative proposals, it was really FF who were in the driving seat. I suspect that was part of the overall PD meltdown, a perception of their irrelevance.

I think this a very good point. The PDs ran the 02 election on the basis of 'one party government - no thanks'. They claimed they'd be FF watchdogs. This piece of legislation being opposed by FF backbenchers who were not looking after the interests of their constituents but their own selfish interests. A lot of people saw this as proof that the PDs were in effect a silent partner in government (excuse the pun!!!) and as such there was no need for them as watchdogs or in any other form.

Colonel Sanders

Tim Robbins wrote:

They are strong on the Economy even though that was FF portofolio.
There many examples of the PDs being rubbish at spin:
For example:
1."We are closer to Boston than Berlin"
2. McDowell saying you need social inequality for economic growth. Everyone believes this except comitted communists they just don't say it.

If they were good at spin they'd say
1. We respect the enterprising attitude the US has always had, and that is something we would want to encourage Irish people to do. We want to empower people so that they can say I can instead of I can't.
2. We believe risk taking must be rewarded, otherwise there would be no risk taking and no growth. Inevitably this will mean there will be risk takers who are successful will do better than the rest of us but if there are no risk takers none of us will do any better as there will be no growth. Ultimately, we need a strong economy, so that the state can pay it's bills and provide public services, this means facilitating some element of risk taking.

another fair point. The PDs adopted a 'warts 'n all' approach. This was their

position and damn what every one else thought. I had a lot of respect for this approach as it made a refreshing change from the usual bull that politicians speak and probably rang a bell with those who are politically literate but it was never going to win over floating voters in love with the Bertie Ahern circus act who probably never read a newspaper apart from tabloid redtops in their lives.

Tim Robbins

Colonel Sanders wrote:

I think this a very good point. The PDs ran the 02 election on the basis of 'one party government - no thanks'. They claimed they'd be FF watchdogs. This piece of legislation being opposed by FF backbenchers who were not looking after the interests of their constituents but their own selfish interests. A lot of people saw this as proof that the PDs were in effect a silent partner in government (excuse the pun!!!) and as such there was no need for them as watchdogs or in any other form.

This is a sensitive point for me. I really wanted that legislation as I find the binge drinking culture painful at the best of times. I also find most of friends still binge drink and they only way to meet them is to enter a binge drinking enviroment. This recks my head.
That said, I hardly expect McDowell or PD to bring down a government over that which was their only other option, what would you expect them to do on that particular issue?

Colonel Sanders

Tim Robbins wrote:

That said, I hardly expect McDowell or PD to bring down a government over that which was their only other option, what would you expect them to do on that particular issue?

No I didn't expect them to bring down a government over this issue, just highlighting an issue that a lot of people probably looked on and thought 'some watchdog eh?'. Hence they possibly just voted for FF rather than a party to watch over them or voted for the opposition.

Tim Robbins

Colonel Sanders wrote:

No I didn't expect them to bring down a government over this issue, just highlighting an issue that a lot of people probably looked on and thought 'some watchdog eh?'. Hence they possibly just voted for FF rather than a party to watch over them or voted for the opposition.

Watchdog is just rhetoric really. We are back to perception, I think a FF / PD government is better than a FF with an overall majority.
An FF overall majority would terrify me actually.

TJJP

He did nothing for his constituents.

Chris Andrews FF Elected (3rd count) 6,600
Lucinda Creighton FG Elected (5th count) 6,311
Ruairí Quinn Lab Elected (5th count) 5,636
John Gormley Green Elected (5th count) 4,685
Michael McDowell PD Eliminated 4,450

Strategic voting did the trick.

Now that’s what I call getting your mickey out.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Liam Byrne

I'm confused.....surely being "rubbish at spin" is a good thing ?

I mean, Bertie can seem to imply that black is white, but that just means that you don't get a straight answer and no-one in his party is held accountable. Even the large advertising hoardings that showed him "talking to people" showed this, since they were so badly Photoshopped that it was obvious that Bertie likes to make it "look" like he talks to/listens to ordinary people, but in reality he couldn't be arsed making the required effort if there's an easier way that he can just make it "look" like he does......so the posters summed him up, really.......

If your company was going down the tubes, would you prefer your boss to sell you some spin, or tell you the truth and let you make up your own mind whether it would be best for you to go looking for a new job ? Or maybe even get the opportunity to stick it out with him, thereby showing your loyalty ?

Colonel Sanders

Liam Byrne wrote:

I'm confused.....surely being "rubbish at spin" is a good thing ?

I mean, Bertie can seem to imply that black is white, but that just means that you don't get a straight answer and no-one in his party is held accountable. Even the large advertising hoardings that showed him "talking to people" showed this, since they were so badly Photoshopped that it was obvious that Bertie likes to make it "look" like he talks to/listens to ordinary people, but in reality he couldn't be arsed making the required effort if there's an easier way that he can just make it "look" like he does......so the posters summed him up, really.......

If your company was going down the tubes, would you prefer your boss to sell you some spin, or tell you the truth and let you make up your own mind whether it would be best for you to go looking for a new job ? Or maybe even get the opportunity to stick it out with him, thereby showing your loyalty ?

To me being rubbish at spin is a good thing but to the tabloid reading masses waiting for someone to toss them a bone its a bad thing. The PDs probably assumed the elctorate would make an informed, rational decision at the polls, a big mistake.

Tim Robbins

Liam Byrne wrote:

I'm confused.....surely being "rubbish at spin" is a good thing ?

I mean, Bertie can seem to imply that black is white, but that just means that you don't get a straight answer and no-one in his party is held accountable. Even the large advertising hoardings that showed him "talking to people" showed this, since they were so badly Photoshopped that it was obvious that Bertie likes to make it "look" like he talks to/listens to ordinary people, but in reality he couldn't be arsed making the required effort if there's an easier way that he can just make it "look" like he does......so the posters summed him up, really.......

If your company was going down the tubes, would you prefer your boss to sell you some spin, or tell you the truth and let you make up your own mind whether it would be best for you to go looking for a new job ? Or maybe even get the opportunity to stick it out with him, thereby showing your loyalty ?

I agree with you, which is one reason why I like politicians like McDowell.
However, most people vote for the best spin without realising it.

transylman

Looks like McDowell isn't going after all. He seems to have backtracked, and now is only resigning as leader, but will remain active in the PDs, and might even go up for reelection.

Cyrus

good, senate seat maybe?

K-9

He might get elected the next time. He's never retained his seat but then again he's never failed to regain it either. Seems to be when he's a TD or minister he is more high profile which seems to be a bad thing electorally for him! Whereas when he is looking to get his seat back people like his confrontational approach.

The PD's suffered when he was appointed leader and nothing else IMO. Harney would have been a more sympathetic and likeable leader.

The Dail will miss his debating qualities, just as much as Joe Higgins. They really came to the fore during the leader debates but he didn't seem to do enough of that during the campaign. Overall, whatever we think about the man, the Dail and democracy are losers for not having McDowell and Higgins.

joecoote

In general he did a disservice to justice in Ireland. Making unsubstantiated accusations, showing garda dossiers on Irish citizens to foreigners and generally fostering a "big brother" attitude throughout the police/legal system has compromised Irish justice. He used and subverted the law to uphold his (party's?) agenda at all costs. He has set precedents which other politicians and those administering the law can now use. His legacy of political smear and innuendo is frightening.

I spoke with a young FF fella the last day who voted for the first time. He was over the moon at the results. I aksed him about Bertie and the money troubles. His response was something along the lines of "fair dues" to Bertie. If the money is there to be taken, take it. I just wonder what the final impact from the present political and social engineering process will be in the end.

irish_bob

In general he did a disservice to justice in Ireland. Making unsubstantiated accusations, showing garda dossiers on Irish citizens to foreigners and generally fostering a "big brother" attitude throughout the police/legal system has compromised Irish justice. He used and subverted the law to uphold his (party's?) agenda at all costs. He has set precedents which other politicians and those administering the law can now use. His legacy of political smear and innuendo is frightening.

I spoke with a young FF fella the last day who voted for the first time. He was over the moon at the results. I aksed him about Bertie and the money troubles. His response was something along the lines of "fair dues" to Bertie. If the money is there to be taken, take it. I just wonder what the final impact from the present political and social engineering process will be in the end



so you met a young FF voter who said fair play to bertie for being on the take
that attitude is hardly surprising coming from a FF supporter , cute hoorism is the number one virtue within FF

as regards your comments on michael mc dowell about how he made unsubstansiated accusations or how he smeared others , i presume you are referring to his comments on ira criminality , if you think those accusations were unsubstansiated , your either a liar or a little wet behind the ears
just because you cant get witnesses to stand before a court and finger the likes of slab murphy for diesel smuggling dont mean the guy is straight as a dye, the last guy to give evidence against the afforementioned ira chief of staff was beaten to death not long after. just because you cant bring a conviction against someone dont mean thier innocent , saying elements within the ira were not involved in criminality is like saying no germans were involved in nazism around 65 yrs ago

on and frank connolly is nothing but a republican propogandist in case your smear refference was in relation to mc dowells naming and shaming of that (journalist)

K-9

irish_bob wrote:

so you met a young FF voter who said fair play to bertie for being on the take
that attitude is hardly surprising coming from a FF supporter , cute hoorism is the number one virtue within FF

as regards your comments on michael mc dowell about how he made unsubstansiated accusations or how he smeared others , i presume you are referring to his comments on ira criminality , if you think those accusations were unsubstansiated , your either a liar or a little wet behind the ears
just because you cant get witnesses to stand before a court and finger the likes of slab murphy for diesel smuggling dont mean the guy is straight as a dye, the last guy to give evidence against the afforementioned ira chief of staff was beaten to death not long after. just because you cant bring a conviction against someone dont mean thier innocent , saying elements within the ira were not involved in criminality is like saying no germans were involved in nazism around 65 yrs ago

on and frank connolly is nothing but a republican propogandist in case your smear refference was in relation to mc dowells naming and shaming of that (journalist)

Agree with you on McDowell and the IRA, he inisisted on ending the links between IRA and criminality. They said we're not criminals, next thing talks break down and what do you know, we have the Northern Bank robbery.

But still, cute hoorism for all FF' ers, what about repugnant self rightousness for PD's, with no substance?

Dr Galen

i'd agree with seanies32 for once on this one

again i don't agree with the majority of what comes out of his mouth but thats what democracy is about. i think he could have been very effective in opposition, indeed could have won back support for the PD's over the next five years if he was sat on the opposition bench. if he could just learn to cool his heels a bit he might have had a better chance.

AidoCQS

I dont understand how the PD's garner so much interest, this thread is top and 'Harney for health' second, it was bad enough when there was 6, now there is only two.

The PD's are FF's mudflap - that is all.

joecoote

irish_bob wrote:

as regards your comments on michael mc dowell about how he made unsubstansiated accusations or how he smeared others , i presume you are referring to his comments on ira criminality , if you think those accusations were unsubstansiated , your either a liar or a little wet behind the ears
just because you cant get witnesses to stand before a court and finger the likes of slab murphy for diesel smuggling dont mean the guy is straight as a dye, the last guy to give evidence against the afforementioned ira chief of staff was beaten to death not long after. just because you cant bring a conviction against someone dont mean thier innocent , saying elements within the ira were not involved in criminality is like saying no germans were involved in nazism around 65 yrs ago

on and frank connolly is nothing but a republican propogandist in case your smear refference was in relation to mc dowells naming and shaming of that (journalist)

I wouldn't consider myself a liar nor wet behind the ears. But that's my opinion. I'm entitled to my opinion. If your arguments have to be supplemented with abuse, that's alright.

My main point is that the political moral compass in Ireland is way off course. While McDowell's legal abilities are not in question his use of legal power is very questionable. Choosing to subvert justice simply because one does not like the intended target is not excusable. Such tactics tend to become acceptable and repeated in the government and the public at large. Once the targetting of one group becomes acceptable for narrow political gain, where does it stop? Unlike others, I'm not willing to smear entire groups with abusive names or tags. I believe an argument could be made that such tags would just as easily be applied to the people throwing the slurs.

AidoCQS

irish_bob wrote:

just because you cant bring a conviction against someone dont mean thier innocent ,

Actually In a democracy it does.

To believe otherwise is to not accept innocent until proven guilty, if you don't you are no better then them, you might not be holding the baseball bats, but you might as well.

That’s what finished McDowell, here was a barrister and Minister for Justice, stating on national TV that Gerry Adams was funding Sinn Fein elections with Columbian money, and that he was complicit in the biggest bank robbery on this island. It was the most surreal moment of this election. If he had proof, the man should have been arrested, if not he was debasing himself to being no better than the thugs, McDowell debased that office and the voters rightly decided he should no longer have it.

irish_bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob

just because you cant bring a conviction against someone dont mean thier innocent ,


Actually In a democracy it does.

To believe otherwise is to not accept innocent until proven guilty, if you don't you are no better then them, you might not be holding the baseball bats, but you might as well.

That’s what finished McDowell, here was a barrister and Minister for Justice, stating on national TV that Gerry Adams was funding Sinn Fein elections with Columbian money, and that he was complicit in the biggest bank robbery on this island. It was the most surreal moment of this election. If he had proof, the man should have been arrested, if not he was debasing himself to being no better than the thugs, McDowell debased that office and the voters rightly decided he should no longer have it.




wrong wrong wrong , mc dowells accusations against sinn fein and adams were not what sunk the pd,s and mc dowell , if that was the reason , then sinn fein would have made huge gains in the recent election , they ended up loosing a seat which shows you mc dowells exposure of ira criminality had no effect , what destroyed the pd,s was due to mc dowell taking on a sacred cow in ireland , bertie aherne , by in a half assed way suggesting he was going to pull the plug on the FF-PD coalition , he angered FF voters and destroyed the possibility of FF voters transferring to the PD,s , transfers which as a result of FF doing so well would most likely have saved every PD seat
to a lesser extent this marching his troops up the hill and back down again by mc dowell dismayed non fianna failers who instead went back to FG



in relation to the other post by joe coote , it is a completely subjective statement to say that mc dowell made accusations about ira criminality for political gain , purely subjective , i believe he done it out of concern for his country and i salute the man as a patrioit for having done so
oh and that is subjective to i guess , my opinion , nothing more

irish_bob

Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob

just because you cant bring a conviction against someone dont mean thier innocent ,


Actually In a democracy it does.

To believe otherwise is to not accept innocent until proven guilty, if you don't you are no better then them, you might not be holding the baseball bats, but you might as well.

That’s what finished McDowell, here was a barrister and Minister for Justice, stating on national TV that Gerry Adams was funding Sinn Fein elections with Columbian money, and that he was complicit in the biggest bank robbery on this island. It was the most surreal moment of this election. If he had proof, the man should have been arrested, if not he was debasing himself to being no better than the thugs, McDowell debased that office and the voters rightly decided he should no longer have it.




wrong wrong wrong , mc dowells accusations against sinn fein and adams were not what sunk the pd,s and mc dowell , if that was the reason , then sinn fein would have made huge gains in the recent election , they ended up loosing a seat which shows you mc dowells exposure of ira criminality had no effect , what destroyed the pd,s was due to mc dowell taking on a sacred cow in ireland , bertie aherne , by in a half assed way suggesting he was going to pull the plug on the FF-PD coalition , he angered FF voters and destroyed the possibility of FF voters transferring to the PD,s , transfers which as a result of FF doing so well would most likely have saved every PD seat
to a lesser extent this marching his troops up the hill and back down again by mc dowell dismayed non fianna failers who instead went back to FG



in relation to the other post by joe coote , it is a completely subjective statement to say that mc dowell made accusations about ira criminality for political gain , purely subjective , i believe he done it out of concern for his country and i salute the man as a patrioit for having done so

K-9

nurse_baz wrote:

i'd agree with seanies32 for once on this one

again i don't agree with the majority of what comes out of his mouth but thats what democracy is about. i think he could have been very effective in opposition, indeed could have won back support for the PD's over the next five years if he was sat on the opposition bench. if he could just learn to cool his heels a bit he might have had a better chance.

There's hope for you yet Nurse baz;)

Anyway, have you heard any opinions on the PD's public/private partnerships?

Extranjero

I thought he was a genuine patriot. At least he had some original ideas and tried to implement them. Cafe bars, for example, a good idea shot down by the pub lobby. And for the record I didn't vote for the government parties.

Im absolutely stunned thinking about some of the pre-election vox pops on Newstalk. Gerry Adams had the 2nd highest party leader rating and McDowell was labeled a "fascist" it just goes to show how it's all PR and most voters don't even know what the words they use mean.

Dr Galen

what you mean by opinons seanies32?

most of the health service workers arre against the plan. which you'd think would be the opposite, seeing as the likes of me could waddle off and work in nice surroundings in the private hospitals. my own main fear is to do with how the government will then treat the public service. i can forsee funding to the public service being cut right back and access to treatment based on need taking a back seat to access based on finances.

Liam Byrne

Extranjero wrote:

Cafe bars, for example, a good idea shot down by the pub lobby.

Brilliant idea, but I guess there were too many FF members who are publicans

Im absolutely stunned thinking about some of the pre-election vox pops on Newstalk. Gerry Adams had the 2nd highest party leader rating and McDowell was labeled a "fascist" it just goes to show how it's all PR and most voters don't even know what the words they use mean.

Yeah, it looks like those two were definitely the wrong way around. Says a lot about the NewsTalk audience, that......

Mind you (and forgive me if my memory is wrong here, since I don't want to tarnish anyone's reputation) but didn't one of the main guys in NewsTalk have a serious "republican movement" leaning at some stage, even writing for the "Daily Ireland" rag ?