New Van, 10K to spend

cormie

Hi,
I'm going to be upgrading my van soon some of you will be glad to hear:D

So I have about 10K to spend and I know exactly the type of van I want. White, long wheel base, medium roof with a roof rack (which I can buy seperate) and a 6 or 7 (7 preferably) crew cab (which I can remove the seats at will from when I need the full load space). And it must be in excellent condition, no big dents or scratches etc.

This would be perfect:


But.. as far as I know, Jumbo's are only new, maybe since 05 and 10k wouldn't afford one and as far as I know, any Transit crew cabs before that were only 3 seats in the back, not 4.

I drove a rented 03 Transit the other day and it just felt so much better than my own 99 (2.5 Diesel). So much more responsive, it could handle hills no problem and could overtake safely. Has the engine improved since the 99 or would it just mean it's a turbo engine or higher than 2.5 Diesel I wonder?

Seems the Ford Transit is one of my only/best options so far. Just hopefully it wont have the same bad luck as my old one.

Any advice would be appreciated:)

overdriver

Best of luck with it, mate. Personally, I would advise you to save your pennies for another few months and get exactly what you want.

The benefit would be two-fold. One, you'd actually have more cash, and two, the van you want would be cheaper as it will have depreciated a bit more.

Here's another thought for you. Could you just rent a van for the time being, or even just the gigs you're really worried about? Build it into the cost of your service, at least partially, and it's tax deductable at the end of the year. If you group your work into the same weekend, the cost of rental is divided by the number of jobs you have on, if you follow? If anyone asks you about the rental, just tell them your company has taken off and you have had to rent vans for the drivers until the new ones you have ordered arrive.

I would also stay away from the Transit, full stop, as the reliabilty just isn't there. My feeling is that you didn't get a really atypical one. A band colleage of mine has had nothing but trouble with his. Niggly little things, mostly. But he's convinced it's normal for all van owners to have these foibles. It's not.

My .02c

cormie

Thanks for the advice. I think if I find the type of van I want within my budget, I'll just go and get it. I can always just sell it on and upgrade again if things are going well. For now, I can't be relying on my van and even with renting, the costs are quite high, I rented a van for 48 hours last week and the cost would not be worth it if I had to do it even 10 times, that would be a big chunk I could have paid off for a newer van I'd own in the end.

I also want to put my logo and all that on the van, which should bring in more business so hopefully over time it will pay for itself because of the advertising I get from it.

Everyone I speak to who has had a transit all say the same thing, that they are great vans and will just keep on going.

Just by size alone, the other contenders would be:
Renault Master
Peugeot Boxer
Mercedez Sprinter (Too expensive though!)
Fiat Ducato
Nissan Interstar
Iveco Daily

I haven't got a clue about the reliability of any of the above though

bazz26

That van in your first post is quite large. Don't you need a special catagory on your driver's licence to drive a vehicle of this class?

Mr. Presentable

My understanding of a crewcab is that it must have a fixed bulkhead behind the second row of seats, thus making the full load space unusable.

The Master is a top van btw.

colm_mcm

I think the Jumbo GVW is 3500 - 4500kg so I reckon that would require a C1 license.

peasant

I have to put a "thumbsup" in for the Iveco Daily.
The yoke on the left in my sig is Daily underneath ...from 89 (!!) and still working perfectly. No rust, no issues.

The engines on the more modern ones are good and strong and cheap to maintain. Cabin spec and build quality on them is quite good too.

For some reason they aren't held in the same regard here as in the rest of Europe and therefore make very good second hand buys.

Get a drive in one, if you can, and see what you think.

Do-more

If you don't mind getting some repairs done then maybe this one Cormie! or this!

cormie

bazz26 wrote:

That van in your first post is quite large. Don't you need a special catagory on your driver's licence to drive a vehicle of this class?

colm_mcm wrote:

I think the Jumbo GVW is 3500 - 4500kg so I reckon that would require a C1 license.

It says this on ford.ie about the Jumbo:

Jumbo from €35785*

Key standard features



* Max payload 1383kg (350 model), 1935kg (430 model), max load length 3399mm, max loadspace width 1762mm, max load floor to roof 1985, width between wheel arches 1390mm

So I think that keeps it in the B class. I think it's pretty much the same with a LWB Mercedez Sprinter and I was talking to a driver of one and he said that it's just the B license for that too.

nipplenuts wrote:

My understanding of a crewcab is that it must have a fixed bulkhead behind the second row of seats, thus making the full load space unusable.

The Master is a top van btw.

If I got a crew cab, I'd want to remove the fixed bulk head and replace it with one in two halves and on hinges that can swing back against the side of the van when the crew cab is not in use. I don't know who I should talk to about seeing the legalities of that but that's the plan anyway:)

I don't know the first thing about Renault, or any manufacturer to be honest, but you reckon the Master is good anyway? Are renault reliable?


Peasant, I'd like a Daily, but there's pretty much no second hand ones in my price range:(

Do-More, that's a handy site thanks:) But I wouldn't like to get involved with having to do huge repairs like that and would prefer to pay the extra for a van that I knew never had any problems, which will be tough to find I know!

Stephen

I seriously doubt your van would pass the DOE if you go f**king about with the bulkhead. By the way, the gvw (gross vehicle weight) of the long wheelbase jumbo transit is indeed 3500KG. The figures you quoted are the maximum payload you can bung into it.

cormie

How do you calculate the GVW? Is it not the weight of the van itself plus the max payload? I couldn't find the weight of the van on the ford site, where did you see it?

colm_mcm

cormie wrote:

How do you calculate the GVW? Is it not the weight of the van itself plus the max payload? I couldn't find the weight of the van on the ford site, where did you see it?

Gross payload = Gross Vehicle Mass - Kerbweight.

Click here to open PDF of full details on Transit dimensions and capacities

http://www.ford.co.uk/spg/images/ebro_PVA_spec_07.5_GBR_en_bp.pdf

Stephen

Its on the UK ford site, there's a PDF you can download. And I was wrong Its actually between 3500 and 4250KG depending on configuration. It has a max payload of about 2000KG (with double rear wheels) on top of that.

http://www.ford.co.uk/ns7/transit/tv_specifications/tv_specs/-/-/-/-#

cormie

I'm still a bit confused, what weight category do you need to have a C license for if it's over 3,500kg? What's Kerb weight too?



I'm seeing up figures of over 6,000Kg in that screenshot, yet you guys are mentioning a max of 4,250. Is it only the Jumbo that you need the C license for I wonder?

colm_mcm

I think the 6000 includes trailers?

John R

cormie wrote:

I'm still a bit confused, what weight category do you need to have a C license for if it's over 3,500kg? What's Kerb weight too?

The Gross Vehicle Mass in that table is the relevant one for licence categories. Kerb weight is the weight of the vehicle without driver, passengers or cargo.

Going by that list the LWB EL Jumbo would need a C1 licence, all the others would be ok for a B licence.

cormie

Thanks for clearing that up:)

I suppose that rules the Jumbo out then Plus the fact that I think they are only around for 2 or 3 years making them out of my price range.

Even though the LWB Crewcab says it's GVM is 2340, I presume it would still be capable of 2800-3500 (as is the LWB without crewcab) if the seats and back bulkhead were removed (providing it would be legal to do).

So besides the Ford, how do the other makes shape up and would they be a lot more expensive to service/parts since they wouldn't be as popular as the Transit?

I see some big differences in the price of some makes for say, a 2003 model. Is price generally a sign of reliability and quality or is it just a case of some are just cheaper but as good as others

cormie

Citroen Relay is also an option:)

colm_mcm

how about this for 6,500, with 70 on the clock? do you really need extra seats enough money left over to maintain it properly.

RoundyMooney

That's a definite C1 category though I would think.

That said, if the OP is serious about making this their livelihood, a C license should be on the list at some point.

It can't be that hard, I have one (among others)

colm_mcm

Luton body LDV convoy GVW would be under 3500kg, A Dyna 150 with a box body would also be under 3500kg.

RoundyMooney

I bow to your knowledge, Colm.

It looks bigger (to me) in the pic.

I have fond memories of the old Sherpa ancestor of the LDV, in many ways Leyland commercial vehicles were far more respected than the cars that they produced.

I still have a gra for the Transit, but that's a personal preference (probably due to familiarity) as much as anything.

cormie

I've considered that type of van alright but I think I'll stick with the transit type and see what happens.

Another one to add to the list is the Opel Movano, so my choices are between:

Opel Movano
Citroen Relay
Renault Master
Peugeot Boxer
Mercedez Sprinter
Fiat Ducato
Nissan Interstar
Iveco Daily
Ford Transit

So 10K to spend, Could stretch to about 12K if the right deal came about. White, Long wheel base, high roof and a roof rack and crew cab would be handy too:)

So if you guys were to go for one or two of the above models, which would you go for? I haven't a clue on what makes are reliable although I'm guessing Mercedez is due to the price, but I wont get one for 12K I'd say.

peasant

Mercedes (and the identical VW LT) rust like hell.
Also their suspension setup isn't exactly famous for stability (particularly noticeable in high winds or in the wet ...both of which is plentyful around here).

Fiat/Iveco are much better for durability, especially on the body.

colm_mcm

Merc Sprinter isn't as great as the badge might suggest. any ones I've come across have given niggly trouble

cormie

I don't understand why a 2003 Transit is almost double that of a 2003 Ducato. I mean about 7K compared to 13K or so. What's so much better about the Transit that it's worth twice the Ducato?

How about the Renault, Citroen, Opel and Peugeot? Would it be a gamble going for any of these?

Does anyone know a good van website to ask the same questions?

peasant

The Transit has the name, the tradition and the history.

Go to a different country (Italy for example) and the situation will be opposite.

For the record ...Fiat, Citroen and Peugeot use the same body.
Citroen and Peugeot use the same PSA engines, Iveco and Fiat share their engines (Iveco gets the new ones first and they then filter "down" into the Ducato) Engines are made by SOFIM which is owned by Iveco which in turn is owned by FIAT.

Nissan, Renault and Opel are the same vehicles ...different badge. (afaik all with Renault engines)


Enginewise, when it comes to commercial diesels, IMO you can't go wrong with an Iveco/SOFIM engine.

So for me, it would have to be a Iveco or Ducato ...especially as they're going so cheap by comparison.

The Ducato (Citroen/Peugeot) is FWD though ...which can compromise traction whith heavy loads in the back.

cormie

Thanks for all that info:)

I'll be taking a fair bit of weight in the back a lot of the time. How exactly is the FWD not as good for this? Why would they make it FWD if it is better to have it RWD for a commercial, of which most, I'm sure, carry a good bit of weight in the back?

So my choices are basically:

A
Ford Transit (mid price range)
B
Fiat (cheap) or Iveco (rare and expensive)
C
Citroen or Peugeot
D
Nissan, Opel or Renault

At least that's narrowed it down. So I just have to choose either A,B,C or D and then find one that's in good nick and the size etc I want. Now, ABC or D is the question!

Peasant, if you were me, would you put your job and future in the hands of a Fiat though? I've just heard lots of bad things about them. Also, when you say the Ducato engine is the Iveco filtered down, what exactly do you mean? Do they use 2nd hand parts from Ivecos are what did you mean by that sentance:o

colm_mcm

If you have a full load in a FWD van, then the front end is sitting higher than the rear. Handling will suffer,

cormie

Hmm, that's a bit annoying. Why would they make FWD commercials then? Is there any advantage to a FWD?

colm_mcm

They're usually cheaper to build and AFAIK it allows for more rear space

cormie

Is it a big enough issue that I should rule out the Ducato, Puegeot and Citroen I wonder?

I do quite a lot of heavy loads, pretty much every day for a few hours a day. Does the traction and handling suffering just mean it wont react as well, or does it mean I'll be slowly but surely damaging the van? Surely the van would be capable of taking up to the specified load weight without effecting the van much


Also, does anyone know anything about Roof Racks? I'll definitely want to get one on whatever van I choose. How much weight can they hold on top? Would they be able to hold up to the specified load weight that the van itself can hold I wonder?

peasant

Some Transits are FWD as well ...

As for Iveco engines:
SOFIM develops a new engine, Iveco gets it first and some two to three years later Fiat gets the same (new!!) engine for their models ...sometimes slightly de-tuned for use in FWD.
The current 2.3 apparently is the one to go for (over the older 2.8)


As for the Ducato ...thousands of campers use it as their base and I'm not aware of any major complaints.
I know these vehicles are not commercials and might not have as hard a life, but on the other hand they're usually loaded to the last kg and beyond, shoved along motorways at a fair whack and their drivers paid a lot of money and would be very sensitive to things going wrong.

cormie

Would a 2.3 be a lot slower then a 2.8 I wonder? My transit (a 2.5) is VERY sluggish, has trouble with hills (even when empty) and takes ages to get up to 120 on a Motorway, can't overtake for nuts either. The transit I rented last week is soooo much better, much more responsive, can overtake with ease and can maintain it's speed going up hills.

Hmm, I just rang the rental place there and they said the Transit I drove was a 2.1L. I asked was it turbo or anything and they said no, they think it's just normal Why was it so much more powerful I wonder?

3ps

it had a newer engine that was smaller but more powerful?

or perhaps your 2.5 is a heap of &^%&?

cormie

3ps wrote:

it had a newer engine that was smaller but more powerful?

or perhaps your 2.5 is a heap of &^%&?

Perhaps! lol. But no mechanic or anyone who has ever driven it has mentioned it being a bad engine I even got it tested before I bought it.

peasant

Your 2.5 is an old warhorse, pre-chamber, no turbo, no direct injection, never mind common rail and aroundabout 70-75 bhp ...what do you expect?

The Fiat/Iveco 2.3 is a JTD (common rail turbo) unit and puts out 110- 130 bhp depending on spec, same as the older 2.8.

R.O.R

If you doing any sort of mileage avoid the Movano etc. Used to have 3 out to the same fleet and 2 were dragged back in to the yard with the engines, clutches and gearboxes strewn through the cab and the back of the vans. Both totally knackered and the engines taken out to diagnose problems, wasn't cost effective to fix or even put the engine back in - sold as rolling chassis's eventually.

Transit for me, the older Fiat's still have a dodgy reputation. The newer ones are a lot better though.

cormie

All that BHP stuff is double dutch to me:o

How come the Ducato's depreciate so much? A 2004 for 12K, a 2002 for 7K. You'd never see a Transit go so cheap for the same year, even though they pretty much cost the same to buy brand new

R.O.R, from what year on did the Fiats get a lot better?

R.O.R

cormie wrote:

R.O.R, from what year on did the Fiats get a lot better?

Not 100% sure but I think it was late 2004 when the new model was launched - now shares engines, platforms etc with Peugeot and Citroen.

Apparently a lot of the older Ducato's were exported to the UK so there may not be a lot around.

Have you thought of importing from the UK? Should be a better choice, you shouldn't have to pay UK vat when exporting, but would have to add Irish 21% Vat on - but only €50 vrt as long as it meets the rules for a commerical Double Cab. A 3.5ton LWB van conversion should meet the requirements though - just make sure there isn't a tow bar or you may need a C1 licence and a Tacho.

peasant

Cormie !!!

bhp is double-dutch ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Mods ...forum ban for cormie


Why does the Ducato depreciate faster than the transit?

Because "white van man" is a strange creature ...anything that's not a Transit is not a van to him and he won't buy it ...certainly not with his own money.

peasant

R.O.R wrote:

Not 100% sure but I think it was late 2004 when the new model was launched - now shares engines, platforms etc with Peugeot and Citroen.

The Ducato has always shared its body (not the engines) with Citroen/Peugeot.

At some stage there even was a "Talbot" version

cormie

Peasant, would you agree with R.O.R that I shouldn't buy a pre-2004 ducato?

peasant

Cormie

On a commercial vehicle it is very difficult to make a general recommendation like that.

Iv'e seen 06 vans (of any make) that were dead to the world already and I've seen mid nineties vans (again from every make) that had a few careful owners and were still going strong and looking good.

You can break any van prematurely, if you put your mind to it.

colm_mcm

I would recommend getting a newer lower mileage van instead of a more expensive Transit. I don't think the Transit is better enough than the Fiat Ducato or Iveco Daily to justify the high price.

peasant

There's yer van ...only just run in.

cormie

That seems like a fair deal, but it doesn't look long enough:( Think it looks like a swb

colm_mcm

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=603392

how about this, an 04 Fiat Ducato 15 for 12 grand (expect a discount), looks good, and from main dealer.

cormie

Saw that one alright, looks good definitely, nice and big and looks in great exterior nick. Is 12K for a 3 year old van originally worth 25K about reason to be suspicious though? It's very risky putting such a chunk of money into something like this. What kind of warranties do Main Dealers give on 2nd hand vehicles and wheat will they be responsible for within that warranty I wonder?

colm_mcm

It's a FIAT main dealer, they'd have to look after you! Use the fact that people can't see past the Transit to your advantage.

peasant

Cormie

The Fiat is so cheap because people don't realise that Fiat's commercial vehicles are miles ahead of the Puntos and Bravos and all the other "fix it again tomorrow" stuff that they used to churn out ...and everybody wants a Transit.

Its' not that Fiats are waay to cheap, it's that Transits are waay to expensive.

About the warranty: ...ring up...ask ...