Outer Ring Road Development

Bards

From Today's Irish Examiner

Waterford developers seek help for plans

By Conor Kane
THE COMPANY behind a proposed €200 million retail centre in Waterford has launched a campaign to attempt to win public support for the project.


According to property developers Edward Holdings, the proposal at Airport Road would bring 3,000 jobs to Waterford and rejuvenate the city section.

Known as First City Quarter, the development includes retail space, offices, leisure and sports facilities and a cinema. Retail giant Marks & Spencer is set to be one of the anchor tenants with a 50,000 square foot flagship store.

For the development to proceed, Waterford City Council needs to rezone the site as a ‘mixed use opportunity site’ in the statutory Waterford City Development Plan. Currently, two- thirds of the 32-acre site complies with this zoning strategy but the rest does not.

The development plan is due to be agreed in the coming weeks.

Independent research was published at yesterday’s campaign launch in Waterford which indicated that 82 % of local residents are in favour of the proposed project.

The survey by Behaviour & Attitudes Marketing Research also highlighted the value of business being lost to the city, estimating that Waterford shoppers spend €19.2 million per annum in retail centres in Cork, Kilkenny, Dublin, Clonmel and New Ross.

The research also found that 72% of people say they want a greater choice of shops in Waterford, with 75% stating that they want more fashion shops. Two-thirds of people are in favour of retail developments both in the city centre and on the ring roads.

“We decided to carry out this research to determine the people of Waterford’s attitudes towards shopping and development in the region,” said Edward Holdings director Gerry Barrett. “The overwhelming response from the people of Waterford is that they are in favour of bringing jobs, investment and leading retailers, such as Marks & Spencer, to the city.”

He said that the company was now calling on the people of Waterford “to help us deliver” on the proposal for First City Quarter. “We need public support to ensure that part of the site is rezoned to allow us to proceed with the development without delay. First City Quarter will give the people of Waterford a much greater choice for retail and leisure. It will create jobs and benefit the local economy and it will facilitate the expansion of the regional airport.”

According to Mr Barrett, if the city council does not agree to rezone part of the site, Edward Holdings will not be able to proceed with this development, “and Waterford will lose out on a huge opportunity for the region”.

A website where the public can learn about the proposed development and vote for First City Quarter can be found at www.firstcity.ie.


EDIT: Website is not currently working!!

BBM77

Bards wrote:

From Today's Irish Examiner
According to Mr Barrett, if the city council does not agree to rezone part of the site, Edward Holdings will not be able to proceed with this development, “and Waterford will lose out on a huge opportunity for the region”.

A website where the public can learn about the proposed development and vote for First City Quarter can be found at www.firstcity.ie.

Personally; I find this whole thing very unsavoury. They are trying to force this development on the city with little regard for the city development plan that the community has worked with the city council on. It clearly states in the city development plan old and new that the city centre is the place for comparison retail. It will be extremely damaging to the city centre if this goes ahead. :mad:

AdMMM

Ballybrickenman wrote:

Personally; I find this whole thing very unsavoury. They are trying to force this development on the city with little regard for the city development plan that the community has worked with the city council on. It clearly states in the city development plan old and new that the city centre is the place for comparison retail. It will be extremely damaging to the city centre if this goes ahead. :mad:

I would have to agree with that. I don't think any of these developments should be allowed on the outer ring road... it's purpose was for traffic relief and a development like this would only bring about congestion. Dublin made this mistake and it's one of the reasons why their bypasses are constantly congested!

Don't get me wrong, Waterford City needs a development like this, but I don't think that it needs one on this scale and in this location.

BBM77

|.Murderer.| wrote:

Dublin made this mistake and it's one of the reasons why their bypasses are constantly congested!

I could be wrong, but wasn't the M50 built as a by-pass.

Bards

I certaintly have reservations about it too... this is why Michael Street/New Street/Stephen Street must go ahead ASAP

does Brendan McCann not see the damage he is doing to the City centre by constantly trying to stifle development in the City Centre

BBM77

Bards wrote:

I certaintly have reservations about it too... this is why Michael Street/New Street/Stephen Street must go ahead ASAP

Very true, its importance seems to be growing by the day.

ToxicPaddy

The Micheal St thing is going ahead.. i know for a fact that all the shops/businesses on the side of Micheal St that is being developed are looking for new premises to move to as we speak.. So that will happen.

I do thing some development is required outside the city in the shape of retail parks etc.. just look at any other city in Ireland.. KK is a prime example as being a new development with plenty of parking and on the outskirts of the city..

However I'm a bit worried about the size of of it alright I do have to admit!!

Something tells me that if this development goes ahead and when its completed, those 82% of residents will be cursing the developers when they cant get out of their house because of the 1000's cars and trucks driving by daily just to go shopping and do deliveries.. :rolleyes:

Bards

ToxicPaddy wrote:

The Micheal St thing is going ahead.. i know for a fact that all the shops/businesses on the side of Micheal St that is being developed are looking for new premises to move to as we speak.. So that will happen.

I do thing some development is required outside the city in the shape of retail parks etc.. just look at any other city in Ireland.. KK is a prime example as being a new development with plenty of parking and on the outskirts of the city..

However I'm a bit worried about the size of of it alright I do have to admit!!

Something tells me that if this development goes ahead and when its completed, those 82% of residents will be cursing the developers when they cant get out of their house because of the 1000's cars and trucks driving by daily just to go shopping and do deliveries.. :rolleyes:

just because other cities do it, doesn't mean we have to follow suit. I would much rather park & ride facilities to be provided on the approaches to the City and bring shoppers into large retila developments in the centre than allow retail parks be built next to Infrastructure designed for moving large numbers of traffic quickly. Otherewise in 10-15 years time we will be looking for an outer outer ring road and a new city Bypass which will not happen.

All land either side of these arteries (especially Junctions) should be sterile and no development be allowed be built alongside or near them

BBM77

ToxicPaddy wrote:

However I'm a bit worried about the size of of it alright I do have to admit!!

Something tells me that if this development goes ahead and when its completed, those 82% of residents will be cursing the developers when they cant get out of their house because of the 1000's cars and trucks driving by daily just to go shopping and do deliveries.. :rolleyes:

That's the thing, this developer is flashing M&S to get people behind the development, but skipping over the problems it will create in the years after it opens.

Cabaal

Ballybrickenman wrote:

That's the thing, this developer is flashing M&S to get people behind the development, but skipping over the problems it will create in the years after it opens.

This kind of development needs a decent road system coming into it with properly thought out junctions and lots of thought out parking.

People never see past the big names it seems

mike65

Shocking 1996 style website I must say.

If the roads and public transport links are upgraded I would have no problem with this sort of thing in principle. Wish they had included an overview of the proposed site, is it intended for the Airport road proper or at the ORR junction?

Its a pity the North Quay project is becalmed for now, thats where much of such a development could go along with 'cultural' stuff.

Mike.

Bards

mike65 wrote:

Shocking 1996 style website I must say.

If the roads and public transport links are upgraded I would have no problem with this sort of thing in principle. Wish they had included an overview of the proposed site, is it intended for the Airport road proper or at the ORR junction?

Its a pity the North Quay project is becalmed for now, thats where much of such a development could go along with 'cultural' stuff.

Mike.

would agree wholeheartedly

Shane07

Why cant Waterford have the two developments ,the Outer ring road one and the Micheal Street development,Why should we settle for only one we should be ambiticous about our city,after all the city council sold this land to the developer on the outer ring road,so they should be allowed develope this site.

Sully

I like the idea of a second development, but I would be concerned that the already busy outter ring road would see traffic increase from people going out shopping there and/or delivering goods.

The last thing Waterford people want is the roads dug up again and more lanes added, its still under a construction mess as it is.

merlante

The best practice seems to be that neighbourhood centres, ala Ardkeen, are built in the suburbs and that primary comparison shopping is confined to the city centre. That fits in with the development plan which aims for a compact city, which is better for all sorts of reasons.

Bards

merlante wrote:

The best practice seems to be that neighbourhood centres, ala Ardkeen, are built in the suburbs and that primary comparison shopping is confined to the city centre. That fits in with the development plan which aims for a compact city, which is better for all sorts of reasons.

a Compact City would lend itself to an increase in tourist numbers who are not car dependent. How many times have you gone to cities with no means of transport only to find most of the "good" shops are only accessible by car

sonners

mike65 wrote:

If the roads and public transport links are upgraded I would have no problem with this sort of thing in principle. Wish they had included an overview of the proposed site, is it intended for the Airport road proper or at the ORR junction?

Afaik its going on the townside of the outer ring road, between the road out of Johns Park (airport road) and the Williamstown road. Where the soccor pitches are now. They're currently doing an entrance to the site from the outer ring road just opposite the entrance to the Golf course (not sure of the name).

If this is the proposed location (and I'm pretty sure it is) then its along the same lines as Tesco Ardkeen, and we all know how much traffic there is around that area. There's already alot of traffic on that stretch of the link road because of its approach to the ardkeen area, this development could very easily make an existing problem worse.

mike65

The Tesco roundabout backs up frequently as does the Ardkeen one (of course its only single carraigway which hardly helps), I can see the ORR from airport to ardkeen being one long nose-to-tail crawl very quickly.

Mike.

tonc76

sonners wrote:

Afaik its going on the townside of the outer ring road, between the road out of Johns Park (airport road) and the Williamstown road. Where the soccor pitches are now. They're currently doing an entrance to the site from the outer ring road just opposite the entrance to the Golf course (not sure of the name).

Is that not an access to a halting site

merlante

The main thrust of development plans over the last few years has been to keep comparison shopping mainly in the city centre while providing neighbourhood level facilities in the suburbs. In other words, the bigger centres go in the city centre, which can accomodate them, while the suburbs gets developments like the new Lisduggan plan, Ardkeen village, and so on.

If you built a large comparison shopping development where you really should be building just a neighbourhood scale development then you end up drawing significant people from beyond the neighbourhood. In the case of this development, that essentially means attracting shoppers onto the outer ring road, which is meant to be a bypass/relief road rather than a destination in its own right. Clearly the city centre can handle a lot of traffic, but the ORR is only one road, and can't be expected to handle the relief traffic as well as the additional shopping traffic.

The M50 in Dublin is an example of what happens when a bypass has developments built along it. It grinds to a halt. When that happens you are really stuck, because you can't just keep building circular roads, and the process is irreversible, at least in the short term.

So that's why I think we can't have both Michael st. and this development. But we could have Michael st. and a scaled town, neighbourhood centre.

AdMMM

May I point out that the Citys roads wouldn't be able to handle the Brewery development. This has been pointed out several times in reports to the Councillors.

Bards

|.Murderer.| wrote:

May I point out that the Citys roads wouldn't be able to handle the Brewery development. This has been pointed out several times in reports to the Councillors.

As I & many others ,including the City Manager have pointed out, by the time the Brewery Development is finished, Waterford will have a brand spanking new €600m City Bypass, thereby removing the majority of cars from the City Centre.

City Square can accomodate 500+ cars in it's car park. I expect this development will easily accomodate that and more.

all it needs is the will to do it and a free flow one way system.

It is also far easier to offer park & ride to the city centre that to do it to the suburbs

JMcL

Bards wrote:

As I & many others ,including the City Manager have pointed out, by the time the Brewery Development is finished, Waterford will have a brand spanking new €600m City Bypass, thereby removing the majority of cars from the City Centre.

Tolled of course in the usual short sighted Irish way, which will result in most of the trucks who couldn't be arsed paying the toll still rolling down the quays same as the do in Fermoy, Enfield, etc. Tolls on bypasses defeat the purpose. There's an excellent motorway network in France which for the most part is tolled, but only on interurban sections. Of course in France there's also the option of taking the slightly slower, but still high quality, parallel national routes, but that's a whole other rant!

Bards

JMcL wrote:

Tolled of course in the usual short sighted Irish way, which will result in most of the trucks who couldn't be arsed paying the toll still rolling down the quays same as the do in Fermoy, Enfield, etc. Tolls on bypasses defeat the purpose. There's an excellent motorway network in France which for the most part is tolled, but only on interurban sections. Of course in France there's also the option of taking the slightly slower, but still high quality, parallel national routes, but that's a whole other rant!

and then the City Council will issue bylaws banning trucks from the City Centre...

Sully

Is this the planning application that got the go ahead recently? I remember reading in the paper about a proposed development out on the ORR with a cinema got the go ahead finaly.

Mini

I certainly hope so !!

About time something started happening in this town.

BBM77

Sully wrote: »

Is this the planning application that got the go ahead recently? I remember reading in the paper about a proposed development out on the ORR with a cinema got the go ahead finaly.

It is and it is not. It is a cinema and retail warehousing has got the go-ahead. The shopping centre with Marks & Spencer’s that was suggested for that site has not got any permission. The city council has rightfully said it is out of the question.

Sully

Ballybrickenman wrote: »

It is and it is not. It is a cinema and retail warehousing has got the go-ahead. The shopping centre with Marks & Spencer’s that was suggested for that site has not got any permission. The city council has rightfully said it is out of the question.

The shopping center is a bit out of the way but a good idea.

Have they re-submitted plans?

Mini

It may be a bit out of the way, but it is still a good idea if it brings investment in to Waterford. Investment which is seriously lacking at the moment.

As was said in the article at the start of this thread, alot of waterford people are bringing their business outside of the county - so this issue needs to be addressed. I for one, am one of those people who brings my business outside of Waterford, I can't remember the last time i went shopping in Waterford, if we got some of the bigger and better stores in Waterford it would revitalise the county.

BBM77

Sully wrote: »

The shopping center is a bit out of the way but a good idea.

Have they re-submitted plans?

No they have not resubmitted plans. We will have to agree to disagree on the shopping centre; I think it would be a disaster for the city. The self centred crowd out the Dunmore Rd would probably love it.

fricatus

Ballybrickenman wrote: »

No they have not resubmitted plans. We will have to agree to disagree on the shopping centre; I think it would be a disaster for the city. The self centred crowd out the Dunmore Rd would probably love it.

Nice bit of stereotyping there Ballybrickenman.