MMA/UFC/PRIDE/K-1 discussion thread

Fozzy

Killme00 wrote: »

I homestly think that some of these UFC title fights must be fixed. GSP should have been pissed off after his loss to Serra. Rampage the same after getting beaten by Forrest.

Who does it benefit though? Why would they have Serra win a title? It's not like Rampage clearly won the fight. A lot of judging errors can be put down to the fact that they're boxing refs judging an MMA fight, but the UFC has no input when it comes to the judges

Killme00

Killme00 wrote: »

I homestly think that some of these UFC title fights must be fixed. GSP should have been pissed off after his loss to Serra. Rampage the same after getting beaten by Forrest.

Classy in defeat is more like it. Nobody likes guys throwin temper tanmtrums after. Rampage questioned the decision at the press conference. GSP was probably still on queer street.


Nothing fixed about GSP getting KO'd and certainly nothing fixed about Saturdays fight in terms of both guys were trying their best to win. Dodgy judging at times maybe but certainly for me no question of the fighters being involved in any fixing. Thats MMA, its so unpredictable because theres so much more to it and u fight top competition all the time ratehr than fight 35 nobodies and then fight the other guy who is 35-0.

Judomad

Dragan wrote: »

Ah you know you do.

Besides, i have always said that you guys get away with murder over here.

i get away with murder EVERYWHERE, thats why i aint happy with a ban
and no, me no like dragan anymo........

setanta are showing UFN 14 live on July 19th!!

Killme00

Fozzy wrote: »

Who does it benefit though? Why would they have Serra win a title? It's not like Rampage clearly won the fight. A lot of judging errors can be put down to the fact that they're boxing refs judging an MMA fight, but the UFC has no input when it comes to the judges

I think it benefits the UFC to have Forrest win, with Rampage, Wanderlei, Chuck et al breathing down his neck. Maybe its just the scoring system but something just doesnt sit right.

Also, they really really need to sort out the judging and the scoring system.

Dragan

Killme00 wrote: »

I think it benefits the UFC to have Forrest win, with Rampage, Wanderlei, Chuck et al breathing down his neck. Maybe its just the scoring system but something just doesnt sit right.

Also, they really really need to sort out the judging and the scoring system.

The judging is up to the Commissions.

Not a lot the UFC can do about it.

Killme00

Deleted User wrote: »

Classy in defeat is more like it. Nobody likes guys throwin temper tanmtrums after. Rampage questioned the decision at the press conference. GSP was probably still on queer street..

I dont think its classy to stand there and laugh "he whooped my ass". I also dont think it bad form to disagree with the judging decisons but to also honestly say that his own performance was not up to par.

If this is the way top level matches are going to go, then the UFC will become very boring like the really really big boxing matches. Unless the judges learn something about the ground game and start award points for it then it will be used less and less and we will be left with sub par kickboxing matches.

Killme00

Dragan wrote: »

The judging is up to the Commissions.

Not a lot the UFC can do about it.

Well if the commision appoints judges without knowledge of the sport then surely the UFC doesnt fall under the remit of the commision.

Killme00

Killme00 wrote: »

I dont think its classy to stand there and laugh "he whooped my ass". I also dont think it bad form to disagree with the judging decisons but to also honestly say that his own performance was not up to par.

How is it not classy? He took it on the chin and didnt moan. Forrest whooped his ass in the second round and he said "Forrest whooped my ass".

Ive met Rampage before and he's a classy guy, he wouldnt get into bitching at a judges decision.
Rampage has won a few controversial decisions before and has been equally as classy in victory. case in point, after the Ninja fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PWyOrw6rNg

I dont see how b1tchin and moanin is how u think a fighter should behave. Im sure he went backstage and vented his frustration but he had enough class to keep it together in the cage. there's something called taking defeat well and maintaining your dignity.

Killme00 wrote:

If this is the way top level matches are going to go, then the UFC will become very boring like the really really big boxing matches. Unless the judges learn something about the ground game and start award points for it then it will be used less and less and we will be left with sub par kickboxing matches.

Care to explain how you rationalise that after one of the most exciting main event fights of the year that you think the UFC will become boring if it keeps going this way?

It was a close fight, I had it as a draw. But its not a robbery decision on the levels of Forrest - Tito, Henderson - Kondo or even Rampage - Ninja. Round 2 Forrest mauled Rampage on the ground, and all 3 judges gave it to him 10-8.

Dragan

Killme00 wrote: »

Well if the commision appoints judges without knowledge of the sport then surely the UFC doesnt fall under the remit of the commision.

Of course it does. It can only operate under the jurisdiction of the State A.C's

Killme00

Deleted User wrote: »

Care to explain how you rationalise that after one of the most exciting main event fights of the year that you think the UFC will become boring if it keeps going this way?.

I think the UFC will become boring unless they somehow get judges to score matches properly. The judges scores were 48-46, 48-46, and 49-46, how can they justify that.

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Griffin-Rampage.html

For me: R1: Rampgae 10 - 9 Griffin
R2 Rampgae 8 - 10 Griffin
R3 Rampgae 10 - 9 Griffin
R4 Rampgae 10 - 10 Griffin
R4 Rampgae 10 - 10 Griffin

I dont think Octagon control should be part of any scoring sytem especially in MMA but thats another discussion

Killme00

Dragan wrote: »

Of course it does. It can only operate under the jurisdiction of the State A.C's

So there wont be any effective scoring system for at least another few years until they have judges with MMA experience or knowledge of MMA scoring systems.

Is there an MMA scoring system which meets all needs? Does the 10 point must really suit?

Fozzy

Killme00 wrote: »

I think the UFC will become boring unless they somehow get judges to score matches properly. The judges scores were 48-46, 48-46, and 49-46, how can they justify that.

The problem with your scoring of the fight is that the judges are under big pressure not to score 10-10 rounds. If the judge thinks that one fighter was even just slightly better than the other then he's supposed to score it 10-9. If someone was scoring it the same as you but they had to give those 10-10 rounds to someone and they gave them to Forrest, then you'd have the same score as two of the judges. It's really not even close to outrageous judging

Killme00

Killme00 wrote: »

I think the UFC will become boring unless they somehow get judges to score matches properly. The judges scores were 48-46, 48-46, and 49-46, how can they justify that.

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Griffin-Rampage.html

For me: R1: Rampgae 10 - 9 Griffin
R2 Rampgae 8 - 10 Griffin
R3 Rampgae 10 - 9 Griffin
R4 Rampgae 10 - 10 Griffin
R4 Rampgae 10 - 10 Griffin

I dont think Octagon control should be part of any scoring sytem especially in MMA but thats another discussion

I already posted the fight metric link.

I agree with some of what you're saying, I thought it was a draw but the second round, a near triangle attempt and the sheer volume of strikes Forrest threw can justify it. Im not arguing in favour but I dont think it was a disgraceful decision either. Sh1tty judges (which BJM, Dana and a few others have alluded to) wont ruin fights for me. Yea, theyre annoying when they get it spectacularly wrong but it happens in combat sports. Bad JDs have been around a long time now (remember Rizzo Randy 1, some say penn GSP etc etc) and it hasnt slowed the growth of the sport or made it boring. The only way it could become boring to me is if they introduced a whole load of crappy rules designed to slow action down....


Ok while I agree the sports judging is flawed, so far u have accused the fighters of fixing a fight when they clearly both tried to win as they nearly finished the fight on a number of occasions. You're talkin out of your backside in relation to fighters rigging fights tbh. Poor judging is one thing but accusing the fighters of fixing fights cos they dont have a tantrum after a close decision loss is insulting. Remember Clay Guida was robbed in belfast and he took it well too...clearly a fix :rolleyes:

Killme00

Fozzy wrote: »

The problem with your scoring of the fight is that the judges are under big pressure not to score 10-10 rounds. If the judge thinks that one fighter was even just slightly better than the other then he's supposed to score it 10-9. If someone was scoring it the same as you but they had to give those 10-10 rounds to someone and they gave them to Forrest, then you'd have the same score as two of the judges. It's really not even close to outrageous judging

But that cant really apply to MMA where defensive and offensive groundwork and standup work can easily negate each other in a 5 minute round.

Fozzy

Killme00 wrote: »

So there wont be any effective scoring system for at least another few years until they have judges with MMA experience or knowledge of MMA scoring systems.

There are plenty of judges with MMA experience, it's just now and again that you'll get a bad decision and that's the one that sticks in your head. New Jersey is the only state so far that has separate committees for boxing and MMA and I wouldn't be surprised to see that idea spread to other states in the future. Some states like Nevada and California really do take a lot of pride in their MMA work

Killme00 wrote: »

Is there an MMA scoring system which meets all needs? Does the 10 point must really suit?

I think the way PRIDE worked, and the way DREAM works now, is the best I've seen. Judging the fight as a whole and just picking a winner. Although the judges in Japan are a lot dodgier than any American judge

Fozzy

Killme00 wrote: »

But that cant really apply to MMA where defensive and offensive groundwork and standup work can easily negate each other in a 5 minute round.

That's the way it's got to be done. I think if there were more draws in the UFC that it would hurt it a lot more than a few bad decisions would, so I think it's good that the judges have to pick a winner for each round

Fozzy

Fozzy wrote: »

I think the way PRIDE worked, and the way DREAM works now, is the best I've seen. Judging the fight as a whole and just picking a winner. Although the judges in Japan are a lot dodgier than any American judge

Yea but even PRIDE had some awful decsions (Kondo v Hendo, Ninja Rampage for example) and some dodgy ones (Ricco v Nog). it happens and sometimes the judges at ringside see different to what we see on TV.

I remember mario Yamasaki talking about the Bisping Hamill fight and he was reffing it and said Hammils punches on the feet werent landing while Bisping had found a home for his jab. EVERYONE thought Bisping lost and yet theres the ref saying what he saw was Bisping land more...

Fozzy

Fozzy wrote: »

That's the way it's got to be done. I think if there were more draws in the UFC that it would hurt it a lot more than a few bad decisions would, so I think it's good that the judges have to pick a winner for each round

i dont see the problem with a draw other than complicating the title picture. So many fights have no clear winner so why not call them a draw. The only way draws seem to happen is guys getting docked point sor the rare occurance of a 10-8 followed by 9-10, 9-10. its harsh on the guys who lose the close ones. But as you said, too many draws would hurt it so thats how it has to be.

Killme00

Fozzy wrote: »

That's the way it's got to be done. I think if there were more draws in the UFC that it would hurt it a lot more than a few bad decisions would, so I think it's good that the judges have to pick a winner for each round

Make it like Tennis so fighters just have to keep going round aftre round until there is a winner. :eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'm kidding of course

Perhaps give referees some input in the scoring especially with the ground game where they are closer to the action.

Killme00

Killme00 wrote: »

Perhaps give referees some input in the scoring especially with the ground game where they are closer to the action.

Thats an interesting idea since NOBODY has a better view of the action. Only problem is they have to concentrate so hard on the fighters safety they couldnt keep a scorecard!!

Killme00

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats an interesting idea since NOBODY has a better view of the action. Only problem is they have to concentrate so hard on the fighters safety they couldnt keep a scorecard!!

He could write it down between rounds.

Doesnt the referee score some boxing matches?

PS apologies on the Monday spelling. I dont normally write write good till Thursday

Killme00

Killme00 wrote: »

He could write it down between rounds.

true but remember that they say that fighters should up the pace for the last 20 secs and try to score to leave an impression on the judges. A rational judge needs to be scoring for the whole round to avoid falling into only remembering the last sequence of events.

It could be done in a sort of way where the ref has an input but isnt quite a judge.

Killme00 wrote:

Doesnt the referee score some boxing matches?

No idea, ask cowzerp who posts here, he'd know.

Killme00 wrote:

PS apologies on the Monday spelling. I dont normally write write good till Thursday

Me fail English, thats unpossible! :pac:

Gatling

Judomad wrote: »

yeah i had avoided the results too until our friend Gatlin on heer tells the poxy result of the main event :mad::mad::mad:

nice one mate:mad:

SORRY guys didnt realise that some of yous hadnt seen the event ,il make sure it dosent happen again ,

MMA judges as pointed out by dana white arent trained MMA judges and are mainly selected from the state athletic commission board ,

95% of the time the decisions can be right the other 5% percent have been know to have some howlers in,

Ok I found this post on a different board I post on. I didnt write it Im just quoting it cos it says all Id say after watchin it again only its saving me about 10 minutes worth of typing!

Round 1: Forrest lands 2-3 nice leg kicks early in the round. At 2:21 Rampage wobbles Griffin with a combo. Forrest fires back and Rampage seems to clip his foot on the cage causing him to almost slip. Uppercut connects at 1:10 and drops Forrest. Rampage pushes him up against the cage and Forrest scrambles to his feet at around the 23 second mark where he finishes the round with a couple of jabs that connect.

10-9 Rampage

Analysis: Anybody who sees this Round for Forrest is clearly not capable of being impartial and should not be acknowledged in discussions of who won.

Round 2: Forrest connect with leg kick at 4:53 and Rampage is clearly hurting. Rampage desperately goes for a takedown and Forrest has him in a guillotine as he goes to the ground into half guard. At 3:00 Forrest attempts an Americana from side mount and then starts hitting Page with short elbows. He goes back to the Americana and eventually into full mount. Page actually defends well for the final 2 minutes, but Round 2 was all Forrest.

10-8 Forrest

Analysis: Some may say that Forrest didn't land enough quality shots to get the 10-8, but with the brutal leg kick, submission attempts, strikes, and mount, I think 10-8 is the right score.

Round 3: First minute of the round shows little action with Forrest throwing 2 kicks to the head that seemingly get blocked and Page connects with a left hook that doesn't phase Forrest at all. Forrest is controlling the ring mostly due to Page's bum leg. Finally they engage at 3:21 with Page scoring with a 3 punch combo. Forrest connects with a leg kick that was high on Page's thigh then gets caught with a left that causes him to lose his balance. At 1:41 Forrest lands a decent left hook. At 1:16 Page hits Forrest with a right to the body which gets shown on the replay in between rounds. :12 Forrest pushes forward and lands a stiff jab. Page initiates a wild exchange at the end of the round but nobody seems to land anything.

10-9 Rampage

Analysis: Neither fighter did a whole lot this round, but Page landed the better shots and the more powerful ones.

Round 4: Forrest comes out with an inside leg kick followed by a head kick. Nothing of consequence, but probably scored on the judges cards. At 4:30 Rampage throws a 4-5 punch combo where 1-2 punches landed and sent Forrest into retreat mode. Page then gets in close again and lands an uppercut prompting Forrest to go for a takedown. The take down attempt ends up with Rampage falling into Forrest's guard. Forrest has been cut. At 3:34 Forrest works from his back and sinks in a triangle attempt. Page lifts him and sort of slams him only Forrest let go and got one of his feet to the ground before the full slam. Page back in full guard. Rampage trying unsuccessfully to work in Forrest's guard. Forrest briefly attempts an Omaplatta which Page steps up out of. As Forrest gets to his feet Page tags him with a nice left hook that has Forrest stumbling backwards. At :50 they engage and both fighters throw wild punches. Page appears to connect as Forrest's cut starts bleeding worse. Page catches Forrest with a few shots just as the horn sounds.

10-9 Rampage

Analysis: Pretty easy round to score. Forrest's only offense the whole round was the triangle attempt, and while it was a nice attempt, Page got out of it quickly, and won the rest of the round convincingly.

Round 5: Very little action in the first minute, but Forrest is controlling the ring and throwing more shots. He lands a nice leg kick at 3:58. At 3:20 Forrest throws a nice leg kick and both fighters throw wildly. 3:10 both fighters land decent punches. At 2:07 Forrest lands a right to Page's face and is still controlling the ring. Stiff jab landed by Forrest at 1:52 followed by a leg kick at 1:35. Nice right landed by Forrest at 1:10. Rampage starts to control the ring as time winds down. He throws some wild shot, but nothing really lands. The clinch in the end and the fight is over.

10-9 Forrest

Analysis: I actually thought this round was much closer when I watched it live, but Forrest won this round without question.

Result: 47-47 Draw. Let's do it again!

Fozzy

Sherdog says that Juanito Ibarra, Rampage's coach, plans to protest the decision to the commission. He says that Rampage won round 1 10-8, and rounds three and four 10-9, while Forrest won round 2 10-8 and round 5 10-9. I don't know about that first round 10-8. Dave Meltzer, who was in the press row at the event, says that Juanito was going mad after the decision and he came over to ask the reporters what they thought and practically all of them said that Forrest won and Juanito was even more unhappy after that. I don't think anything's going to come of it

Michael Bisping told The Sun that he's heard that Fedor's going into his fight with an injury. I wouldn't be surprised at all, but I still think that if Fedor's fit enough to fight then he'll be fit enough to beat Tim

Well Juanito is a boxing man and in boxing when u get dropped you lose the round 10-8 so thats probably where he's comin from. Theres no way the dec gets overturned but that said the fact that 2 judges gave round 1 to forrest is a joke.

Fall_Guy

I think there's an argument for round one being a 10-8 for rampage based solely on the fact that he landed a strike that resulted in a clean knockdown, in a round that he would have won 10-9 without the knockdown due to cleaner, more powerful strikes being landed throughout the round.

Felt the decision was tough on Rampage, but in close fights it really is hard to call and I don't think anyone could claim that it was an absolute robbery. I guess a rematch would be only fair given just how close the fight was.

Fozzy

Good article on the judging of the fight by Dave Meltzer here: http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=AjMkXpjAOSDbCROSfqOVD049Eo14?slug=dm-ufcscoring070708&prov=yhoo&type=lgns I actually had the same scores for each round as he did. He's had to write so many similar articles over the years. He was a UFC judge a few times in the past too

Gatling

Deleted User wrote: »

Well Juanito is a boxing man and in boxing when u get dropped you lose the round 10-8 so thats probably where he's comin from. Theres no way the dec gets overturned but that said the fact that 2 judges gave round 1 to forrest is a joke.

i seem to remember juanito saying in a video thats there was no way griffin would beat rampage ,and if it actuly happened he would retire from the game

rampage took the defead like a man juanito should too