Is it just me or...?

Karl Hungus

the_new_mr wrote:

I can't exactly back up my theory with evidence.

Of course not. It's the same faulty logic behind the theory of violent films creating violence in society, such as with the whole "Video Nasty" scare in the UK during the 80's.

the_new_mr wrote:

Haven't you ever heard the phrase "Art imitating life imitating art" ?

Yes I have, and not only would I completely disagree with the notion in this case, but you have already stated to the contrary:

Apparently, this series of 24 was all about fighting Muslim terrorists. I can understand that since this is something which has (unfortunately) become part of our lives that's it's a simple case of art imitating life but is it a really good idea? Anyway, fair enough I suppose. It's a hot topic and someone had to handle it.

Thanks for clearing that one up.

the_new_mr

Yeah, but just like art imitates life, sometimes life can imitate art again. Plus, I also said that 24 was less of a problem since it's more black and white if you know what I mean?

And I'm also one of those people that doesn't believe in the idea that violent films make people violent. In fact, there's evidence to show the opposite. But I do believe that art is powerful enough to influence ideas. That's what art is about after all.

metrovelvet

the_new_mr wrote:

That's an indirect attack on Islam. Warning for breaking rule #1. I'm being very lenient there. This forum has rules written in the charter. Stick by them.

Its more a comment on possible perceptions of Islam than on Islam itself. How you get to it being an attack in Islam is quite a leap.

So what if life imitates art? You want art to cater to the ideologies of Islam?

Particularly western art?

Yes the media is powerful, but perhaps you underestimate the ability of people to make up their own minds. We are not all children after all.

And if anything, in that episode of Law and Order you describe, its the white western male who should be concerned, and not the Islamic community.

the_new_mr

Oh, maybe you meant that the misconceptions could be in the mind of the writers and they'd have to agree that they were misconceptions in the first place. If so, my bad.

metrovelvet wrote:

So what if life imitates art? You want art to cater to the ideologies of Islam?

I suppose I'd like people not have the misconceptions in the first place but there is no doubt that the main responsibility lies with Muslims all over the world. But, at the same time, it's a responsibility on all people to educate themselves on any topic that they are planning on expressing an opinion on.

metrovelvet wrote:

Yes the media is powerful, but perhaps you underestimate the ability of people to make up their own minds.

You'd be surprised.

metrovelvet

the_new_mr wrote:

Oh, maybe you meant that the misconceptions could be in the mind of the writers and they'd have to agree that they were misconceptions in the first place. If so, my bad..

Or in fact the writers are acknowleging that this is a public perception -accurate or not -and a perception which led the police to the wrong suspect. And how can you know this would represent all muslims?

Its very difficult to agree on what is a misconception in any art form when so much of it relies on the acceptance of subjective framing and individual perceptions. Its what makes it so interesting. You may think its a misconception but others may not, does that make you right and them wrong?

And no doubt Islamic women are perceived to be oppressed in the US. But people also see that they choose to be oppressed so its somewhat modified. [Dont take it personally, American women have their own versions of oppression they refuse to acknowlege, like only being allowed 6 days off for maternity leave or being expected to be pencil thin!]

the_new_mr

metrovelvet wrote:

Or in fact the writers are acknowleging that this is a public perception -accurate or not

Unlikely. There's no need to try to make Muslim women to be oppressed. And even if Americans do see Muslim women as choosing oppression, that's still a misconception since Muslim women aren't oppressed... at least by the religion. Unfortunately, many Muslim women are oppressed in the name of Islam but it's completely wrong.

metrovelvet wrote:

Its very difficult to agree on what is a misconception in any art form when so much of it relies on the acceptance of subjective framing and individual perceptions. Its what makes it so interesting. You may think its a misconception but others may not, does that make you right and them wrong?

Honestly, I have no idea what to make of that It seems a bit all over the place. I think it's pretty obvious that some people would not hold a misconception whilst knowing it is a misconception. What's the point of stating this?

metrovelvet wrote:

American women have their own versions of oppression they refuse to acknowlege, like only being allowed 6 days off for maternity leave or being expected to be pencil thin!

Most definitely.

metrovelvet

What I am saying is that whether or not the writers themselves agree that ISlamic women are oppressed, their audiences might see how Islamic women behave as a symptom of oppression and the writers are acknowlging or referencing that, perhaps then commenting, debating or confirming it after the reference is made via reference, inference, metaphor, or direct representation.

If you want people to apply relativity to your culture and religion then you must do so yourself, it is only fair.

At the end of the day its drama - and fyi violence against women in the US is always underscored by class/race allusions. Its usually Blacks and Hispanics who get it pinned on them. You know the term "wife beater" refers to those white tank top undershirts that you see men wearing in movies about Italian Americans.

Dont take it personally, it's hollywood. EVERYONE has a grip with it when it comes their communities.

lizzyvera

Hi just browsing and this forum was very interesting.

I saw that show.
There was a scene where a man was tortured (mildly but still, it's not right) and gave a confession and told them about a new plot, thus saving lives. So they justified torture. I don't know why, if RTE censors plenty of shows, they show such blatant propaganda. I really think it's harmful to society that shows like that are aired, it makes people prejudiced and prevents any proper debate because people get so narrow-minded.

wes

lizzyvera wrote:

Hi just browsing and this forum was very interesting.

I saw that show.
There was a scene where a man was tortured (mildly but still, it's not right) and gave a confession and told them about a new plot, thus saving lives. So they justified torture. I don't know why, if RTE censors plenty of shows, they show such blatant propaganda. I really think it's harmful to society that shows like that are aired, it makes people prejudiced and prevents any proper debate because people get so narrow-minded.

Well I think blatant propoganda or not, they should show it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I assume your talking about 24 btw, it is isn't actually very bad most of the time and does even things out, with a lot US politicians being bad guys as well. Also, 24 does have positive Muslim characters as well, the recent season had a Muslim CTU agent which was a good counter balance. So while I disagree with some of the stuff in 24, its still over all not too bad.

lizzyvera

But propaganda gives people uninformed opinions! Not everyone's opinion is equally valid.

wes

lizzyvera wrote:

But propaganda gives people uninformed opinions! Not everyone's opinion is equally valid.

True, but it is a TV show. Its fiction, so it should not be taken to serious. I know some will, but hopefully only a few people actually take a TV show serious.

the_syco

the_new_mr wrote:

The first victim was a woman and the police originally suspected the husband of the killing because there had been domestic violence (strike 1: portraying the average Muslim man as a wife beater)

Erm, you have to watch L&O more often. Its ALWAYS the guy who gets the blame. Why? Cos the drunk/white/relgion man decides to beat her up.

the_new_mr wrote:

Now, one reason the police thought the man might have a motive for killing his wife was because she had become romantically involved with a Jewish man who was running a good-will organisation to bring Muslims and Jews together which the woman was involved in.

STRIKE, erm, 9? Cos the Jew is portrayed as an adultuer? ZOMG! Racist:rolleyes:

the_new_mr wrote:

The second victim was a man who was also involved with the organisation. When the police went to talk to the head of the organisation again, he said that it was a shame that this guy was killed because, and I quote:

"How many Muslims do you know say Israel is a great country?"

You is Muslim, yes? (think Ali G when askingthis question).

the_new_mr wrote:

Now, Israel is not a great country.

You is Muslim, yes? (think Ali G when askingthis question).

You don't like Isreal. I can't think of many of my white friends who like Isreal, but if it was said "How many Irish do you know say Israel is a great country?", what would you feel?

=-=

If L&O make people think Muslims are bomb wearing fanatics, imagine how they felt after watching Team America?

jonny72

Karl Hungus wrote:

If they're both inaccurate stereotypes, then there is no difference. It's both lazy writing.

Yes but one is quite dangerous, whereas the other is harmless..

I was teaching kids in Italy, it was quite obvious they were saturated with American TV and video games, they viewed the Americans as honourable and the 'good guys', whereas the Muslims were always evil and the 'bad guys'.

We're all affected by it, when I say the word terrorist most Irish people will immediately picture a Muslim man with a beard, which has quickly replaced our the image of a Christian in a balaclava.

Try to imagine if you will, a show like 24, or a big budget film like Pearl Harbor except that this time, there is a heroic Muslim figure taking down evil Americans.. its very hard to imagine isn't it? We are much more indoctrinated than we think.

jonny72

the_syco wrote:

If L&O make people think Muslims are bomb wearing fanatics, imagine how they felt after watching Team America?

Team America is satire.

Lets make this more simple..
Harmless stereotypes:
Irish - drunk, always fighting
French - stuckup, snooty
Americans - dumb, gullible

Dangerous taboo stereotypes:
Black people - slaves, ****
Jews - covetous, money grabbing, evil
Muslims - terrorists, suicide bombers


Name some recent shows (except Family Guy and South Park, which are satires), serious shows that portray the BAD guys as black slaves? hmm nope none. No really there aren't any.

Okay some recent shows that portray an evil money grabbing Jew as the BAD guy? hmmm again, nope, zero.

Yet there is a torrent of tv shows which portray Muslims as the BAD guys..

It has a subtle longterm effect on almost everybody.

I mean our psyche still hasn't even recovered from World War 2, thats how embedded it is in us, and we're Irish, we barely even took part. To take from my previous post, try to imagine a film where the noble, honourable Nazi is killing hordes of murdering evil Americans.. ever wonder why we can't deal with that image?

Want to make a European film about glorious insurgents fighting against evil American invaders? the answer: no no you can't! its too insensitive! yadda yadda, but feel free to make one about evil Muslim terrorists being thwarted by Western heros.

We're such hypocrites.

MooseJam

Whats with all the Israel bashing in this thread, Israel is a great country, standing strong in the face of terrorism !

Hobbes

You have a problem use the report posts button.

InFront

Guys please keep it on topic. This isn't going to become a thread about the rights and wrongs of the state of Israel. If you want to talk about that please use the politics or humanities forums.

Boston

I'm looking forward to this "Kingdom" film. From the trailer it seems to show Muslims in a different light, to a degree.

wes

Boston wrote:

I'm looking forward to this "Kingdom" film. From the trailer it seems to show Muslims in a different light, to a degree.

I heard its suppose to be a straight up procedural cop movie about the investigation. Its certainly seems interesting and it has the wonderful Jennifer Garner and Jamie Fox. So the acting chops are there, not sure about the director, not sure if I have seen anything he has done.

InFront

Must admit I'm not really familiar with that film or the one the_new_mr was talking about, but I think it is unfortunate that movie producers and TV people have so much influence over public perceptions and public opinion and can sway feeling on things like perceptions of Muslims, or Jews, Americans, or Irish people, and so on.

I'm not advocating harsh censure of the press by the way, just saying that it would be far better if the general public took their opinions of individuals from real life experiences, one-on-one, as opposed to submitting to movie depictions and beliving all Muslims are X, all black people are Y, or whoever and whatever the depiction relates to.

Very often the insight provided by people working in the television media into the complexities of religious and or ethnic identities is one that ought not to be afforded much attention, or certainly less attention than one's own experiences in a community.

wes

There is a new show called "Aliens in America" starting this Autumn in the us which looks very interesting. Take a look at some of the clips on here, they look pretty funny. Its about a Pakistani exchange student going to the US to live with an American family.

There is also the Canadian show "Little Mosque on the Pariae", not seen it yet, but it also sounds interesting.

philologos

here here the_new_mr.. I think the Americans, and some other Western nations, have jumped on the bandwagon of using the new international problem of terrorism (and misinterpreting it) in their shows. It's something that is a shame. As for the "

How many Muslims think Israel is a great country?

" it's most likely there to satisfy the Zionist viewer, not condoning it just trying to put some reason behind it. You're right Israel is not a great country, and they not only offend Muslims in saying that, but they are branding all valid critics of the State of Israel in an unfavourable light.

MooseJam

Jakkass wrote:

You're right Israel is not a great country

compared to what ? Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria. What Muslim nation is "great"

InFront

As I'm sure you know the state of Israel and that whole disputed territory is home to a very significant population of Muslims so I don't imagine he meant in in terms of what religion its inhabitants happen to adhere to.
For the record, you'd struggle to find anyone on this forum ever calling the countries you mention above 'great nations', Muslim or not.

Nationalism and Islam don't enjoy one another's company, politics doesn't belong here either, so I think it's a fair request to ask you to take any discussion about the politics of nationalism to another forum.

Moosejam that is your second post in a row following this line and there has been a warning against it. It's not for the Islam forum, and I hope that's the last warning about it for this thread.

MooseJam

well back on topic so, speaking of law and order did anyone see Monday's, the criminal was a stereotypical "Mad Moslem" excuse the phrase, who murdered two people, the reason for the crime was he hated woman, his very loud defense in court was that America was on a crusade to destroy Islam, I think that show is going overboard with the whole Muslin storyline

the_new_mr

Glad you think so.

togster

Im not a muslim. I do feel however that certain aspects of the media do potray the muslim community in an unhelpful way. It further creates a divide between us. People need to ask themselves if the IRA were still bombing would it be ok for the media to potray all irish people as crazed bombers.