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What did you think of the General Election results ?..
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il gatto wrote:As far as the health system goes, if so much money has been poured into it, it's not a case of no amount of money being able to fix it. It's purely a case of bad management of expenditure, which the government, and the civil servents charged with it's management, and who are appointed by government, making a complete hash of it. Of course money can improve it, just not when they spent it incorrectly.
exactly what i was thinking too, great minds think alike
alot of people get jobs too just from knowing each other rather than on a good track record of work..which is also the result of a lot of incompetence.given a job they aren't capable of doing properly.
Its a good job we don't have nuclear reactors in this country, imagine the disasters we'd have!!
Don't think anyone here can argue with that.:pil gatto wrote:Now that they are recovering quickly, interest rates are on the up and many people are in for a torrid time. The last government took alot of credit for the economy. I wonder will they still be playing the "safe pair of hands" card in five years time when it emerges they can do little to control things.
i would say the government can't believe how they managed to get a third term..no doubt if people don't spend their cash, FF will do it for them, if they go ahead with the 2nd NDP.what a joke.il gatto wrote:Any economic boom which relies on the construction industry to the extent Ireland does, can only have a finite existance. Already many towns have more appartments and retail units than they can fill.
exactly, and most of the people living in them work in the construction industry!! hahaha!
Not to mention that alot are foreign nationals. my question to all those who believe "we've never had it so good" is what the hell do you think the foreign nationals will do when the construction finally comes to a halt?
if people don't have work in construction in future, which currently alot of people do have, they won't be able to afford buying from shops, and shops won't be able to employ staff, pay rent..etc people won't be able to keep payments on mortgage, or loans, credit card payments...loss of construction will hit everything.i wonder will it be really messed up?, lets wait and see.
there are already empty houses all over the place.
so everything stands on construction to keep rolling? that is NOT economic stability.il gatto wrote:I don't feel I've benefitted much, but I am not just a begrudger. It is an economic fact that this government has overseen a widening of the gap between rich and poor. A fact the media were only too happy to report on up until last year. When the country is at it's richest ever, this smacks of A. ineptitude, or B. not giving a damn.
i'm not begruudger either, i just think people believe too much in this "celtic tiger" myth, because that is all it is, a big myth.
anyone who appears to have lots of money is usually up to their eyeballs in debt..does that mean you're "doing well"??il gatto wrote:I feel the media helped swing opinion, but viewing of the media is very subjective. It's just how it appeared to me.
without a doubt in my mind, the media had ALOT to do with FF getting back into power.0 -
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jimmycrackcorm wrote:The health system is just unmanaged. But an you blame the government for that when if they were to turn around tomorrow and say we are going to sack all the excess staff, there would be near riots on the streets.
jimmy, do you not think SOMEBODY has to be accountable?, THE government are elected by the people, therefore IMO its THEIR responsibility to sort the health service out..
If the HSE is unmanaged, then its the governments fault, nobody else.
Its too convenient for Fianna Fail to pass the blame on to someone else when something goes wrong..they always do that.i.e Mary Harney, Michael Mc Dowell
Its always somebody else's fault except their own!
And yes i know PD's were part of the government, but it seems to me, mc dowell and harney were fallguys for the poor health and justice system.jimmycrackcorm wrote:And our parents took even greater risks and got houses 10 times cheaper. It was even more difficult in those times. I personally know of young couples on low incomes taking out 35 year mortgages and not only can they afford to pay them but they're buying plasma tvs too.
What is the problem with complaining about the extortionate state we live in?
Its always the same line, "things are better than they were.."
how about things being better than they are?jimmycrackcorm wrote:When is the last time you met a poor person? It's all very relative - the only poor in this country are those who can't afford to buy a playstation 3.
i think a playstation 3 is the last thing a poor person would worry about tbh,atleast in the north west.jimmycrackcorm wrote:I have benefited myself on an ordinary level ( i.e. I don't have speculative property investments). I have a good job and money in the bank thanks to charlies SSIA. But at the expense of leaving the northwest for better opportunites. you make your own luck as they say...
exactly jimmycrackcorm, you had to leave the north west to benefit on an ordinary level, see the contradiction when you say "things are better"? (..ok, you didn't say that exactly)
many others still have to leave also, that is the point il gatto makes, and i agree completely with what he/she says.
some have benefited in the north west, but your average minimum wage worker is probably worse off today than they were 10 years ago.
you probably don't have to survive on 310 euro a week, some do, some do it on less..but we won't talk about that, will we?
would you be happy to work for that? after you pay rent, food, heating..there isn't much left to show for the work you did.
thats why alot of young working people still live at home with their parents.
if the only solution is to move, like yourself, we may aswell all move, and give 2 fingers to the northwest...and go on
boards.ie and tell anyone who stayed behind that life in ireland is great!jimmycrackcorm wrote:As I work in IT, I am well aware of how the nedap machines work, and no, they don't use tape. They are simply flawed by not having a paper printout for backup verification because people trust banks computer systems to manage their money but not a simple vote counting computer.
My point was that going down the electronic route is the first step to enabling us to have more say in the decisions of our governemnt. IMHO it is not the be and end all but the beginings of more accessible voting for all. The first step is to get people acclimatised to it.
i understand the software is flawed, full of security vulnerabilities, and was deemed unsuitable for use.
not sure if having a paper trail would make a difference if someone were capable of accessing the system remotely without authorisation.
whats the point of having electronic voting if you need paper to verify the votes?
the "paper trail" verification is proof that the machines are uselessSeanies32 wrote:What the same with the country on its knees with queues outside the American Embassy and kids begging on the Underground.
oh oh..of course, kids don't have to beg in ireland anymore, because we're so much better off these days, right?
and sure, atleast we don't have to ride the coffin ships to america in 2007..ah yeah, i almost forgot we're not living in the 1800's anymore.. :PAs regards, health when are the political parties going to grow up and point out to the electorate that we can not have a Health system like Germany or Sweden unless we increase taxes? All political parties are guilty of this.
i think all consultants should be sacked, and we source them from another country if necessary, because the current ones are overpaid, and underworked. 0 -
Average Joe wrote:
whats the point of having electronic voting if you need paper to verify the votes?
the "paper trail" verification is proof that the machines are useless
i think you'll find that the more important the computer system, the more important the need for a paper trail.
i know from my work, any information that is required by law, even though it is all entered in our computers and back-up daily. we still have to have a paper record and keep it for 2 years.0 -
ctc_celtic wrote:i think you'll find that the more important the computer system, the more important the need for a paper trail.
i know from my work, any information that is required by law, even though it is all entered in our computers and back-up daily. we still have to have a paper record and keep it for 2 years.
i know what you mean, but are your computers accessable remotely? are they directly connected to the internet without a properly configured firewall? can they be be logged into during the day before a backup, if so, what good is a paper trail then?
we can ask, but not know the answer,
is the central computer which records accumulated votes connected to the internet? is it possible to cause a DoS (Denial of service) attack on this system remotely?
Is the protocol for authentication, (if any at all) secure? is it weak? i don't know, do you?
None of these things, AFAIK have been tested on the NEDAP machines, which need to be, and alot more tests carried out, before we have any confidence in its operation.
these NEDAP systems can be accessed remotely, so IMO they have no integrity.if its all computerised, and a backup is done at the end of the day, there is no way you're gonna know whether the output is accurate and truthful.
The dutch company that designed the system probably didn't care how secure it was, as long as it worked, and they got the money for it..thats all that matters, you know this if you work in i.t and your boss doesn't care about a customer.
e-voting might sound like a good idea on paper, but when you have a government with no good i.t heads working on it, just greedy money grabbing consultants, you're going to run into serious problems.
The government never seem to think of the obvious problems until the very last minute, and then its too late.
security should be a priority in this situation, but because some company makes a promise to meet a deadline, or complete the job at some initial cost, security is sacraficed for functionality, and so is democracy...for whats its worth
the source code AFAIK has been given to the irish government for review, on a non-disclosure agreement.
can we trust the government to audit the code? i would say no, until we know what individuals are given the job of reviewing it.0 -
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Average Joe wrote:jimmy, do you not think SOMEBODY has to be accountable?, THE government are elected by the people, therefore IMO its THEIR responsibility to sort the health service out..
If the HSE is unmanaged, then its the governments fault, nobody else.
Average Joe, I'd really enjoy a debating pint with you in the Orchard. As I work in middle management myself I understand this... It is the responsibility for top level management to set policy and direction. It is the responsibility for the lower management to implement this policy and that is where it gets bogged down.Its too convenient for Fianna Fail to pass the blame on to someone else when something goes wrong..they always do that.i.e Mary Harney, Michael Mc Dowell
Its always somebody else's fault except their own!
And yes i know PD's were part of the government, but it seems to me, mc dowell and harney were fallguys for the poor health and justice system.
Mary did ask for the job and fair play to her for doing so, and I'd quite readily agree that FF were happy for her to take the flak.What is the problem with complaining about the extortionate state we live in?
Its always the same line, "things are better than they were.."
how about things being better than they are?
I remember the 80's well. I remember being the only person out of my college course who ended up getting a job in Ireland. I recognise the loss of siblings who emigrated and have family now that I rarely see compared to those who I do see now given that the opportunities do exist at home.i think a playstation 3 is the last thing a poor person would worry about tbh,atleast in the north west.
I challenge you to define being poor in this day and age in modern Ireland? Who do you know won't get a dinner tomorrow or have any tv to watch...?exactly jimmycrackcorm, you had to leave the north west to benefit on an ordinary level, see the contradiction when you say "things are better"? (..ok, you didn't say that exactly)
many others still have to leave also, that is the point il gatto makes, and i agree completely with what he/she says.
some have benefited in the north west, but your average minimum wage worker is probably worse off today than they were 10 years ago.
I don't accept the "world owes me" theory that says that should I choose to stay in the North West that a job matching my training should appear. You have to make your own fortune, it won't be handed out to you. Companies such as Pramerica in Letterkenny are testament to government intervention but we can't rely on the government to be the total solution.you probably don't have to survive on 310 euro a week, some do, some do it on less..but we won't talk about that, will we?
would you be happy to work for that? after you pay rent, food, heating..there isn't much left to show for the work you did.
thats why alot of young working people still live at home with their parents.
Why don't we talk about it? Let's make a comparison to the sacrifices previous generations made in emigrating before we talk about how the current generation is faring.if the only solution is to move, like yourself, we may aswell all move, and give 2 fingers to the northwest...and go on
boards.ie and tell anyone who stayed behind that life in ireland is great!
That's not the point. What Economic theory is it that states that everyone born in a particular area is entitled to a rich and deserving career there?i understand the software is flawed, full of security vulnerabilities, and was deemed unsuitable for use.
not sure if having a paper trail would make a difference if someone were capable of accessing the system remotely without authorisation.
whats the point of having electronic voting if you need paper to verify the votes?
the "paper trail" verification is proof that the machines are useless
No. it's called an audit trail. It's a verification method for a process and a valid concept at that. It's not there to indicate failure, it's there to substantiate correctness.oh oh..of course, kids don't have to beg in ireland anymore, because we're so much better off these days, right?
and sure, atleast we don't have to ride the coffin ships to america in 2007..ah yeah, i almost forgot we're not living in the 1800's anymore.. :P
Well if you want to get a measure of being better off nowadays, I think that a comfy seat on a flight to JFK with multi-choice, in-seat entertainment and on-demand hospitality is a good example.i think all consultants should be sacked, and we source them from another country if necessary, because the current ones are overpaid, and underworked.
Apart from the ethics of effectively stealing consultants from where they are needed more, such as India and Pakistan, a better approach is to negotiate a productive settlement.
As much as I enjoy the debate, I think we need to bring it back into the context of the forum. I actually came back to post a note on my concerns regarding the green party in government. The government previously announced a plan to build a strategic road to the northwest; the Greens are against road building and I fear that they will object to this plan and that this will have a major impact on the perhiperal economic development.0 -
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Average Joe wrote:do you not think SOMEBODY has to be accountable?, THE government are elected by the people, therefore IMO its THEIR responsibility to sort the health service out..
If the HSE is unmanaged, then its the governments fault, nobody else.
Its too convenient for Fianna Fail to pass the blame on to someone else when something goes wrong..they always do that.i.e Mary Harney, Michael Mc Dowell
Its always somebody else's fault except their own!
Mary Harney did come down strong on the Nurses and the consultants and the Nurses go on Work stoppages, which going by opinion polls had public support. I'd love Harney to ban Unions in the public service, but! :mad:
They have a vested interest and its funny how everybody condemns lobbying groups like the Construction Industry but not the Unions. They're a vested interest as well.
Unfortunately, Unions are here to stay. Hopefully this Govt. will address in some way the public sector pay issue and the joke of benchmarking.Average Joe wrote:What is the problem with complaining about the extortionate state we live in?
Its always the same line, "things are better than they were.."
how about things being better than they are?
No problem at all with that. But things are better than the 80's which are 20 years ago and the Famine ships which are 200 years ago as you brought up. You brought up the queues outside the American Embassy, not me. It's ridiculous to bring up the Famine.
Emigration was a fact for most of the history of this state, The World Bank was close to calling us bankrupt, and if it was now, Bono and Bob Geldof would be campaigning to reduce our debt along with the Third Worlds. The striking difference in the last 20 years is, instead of accepting Emigration in the 80's we now accept immigration.
I agree with you things should be better still. However unlike 20 years ago, and probably for the first time since a brief period in the 60's, we are in control of where we go from here. To me, Health is the major issue in the next 5 years. I don't care how its done, either Harneys co-location or the old, build more public beds argument, thats for another debate, but if we do not have a reasonable Health Service, with a reasonable A&E and reasonable waiting times, with people not dying waiting for operations then this country will have failed its people in 5 years time.
High prices, better wages levels, etc. are important issues but they are economic problems which will take time to solve, a reasonable health service is a civil right for somebody regardless of income.
Unfortunately the opposition let us down on health. They did not suggest a radical alternative, like the Berlin model, just more of the same. If they had said no more tax cuts and we'll invest that money in the Health Service I would have voted for them for no other reason than suggesting a proper alternative. Instead they tried to appeal with tax cuts and more investment in Health.Average Joe wrote:i think a playstation 3 is the last thing a poor person would worry about tbh,atleast in the north west.
Do you have children? I wouldn't buy mine a Playstation 3 either but what about Nintendo's, PS 2's , PSP'S and games at €50/60 ago. Nearly all kids have these done and the money is coming from somewhere.Average Joe wrote:
many others still have to leave also, that is the point il gatto makes, and i agree completely with what he/she says.
some have benefited in the north west, but your average minimum wage worker is probably worse off today than they were 10 years ago.
There was no minimum wage in 1997 and there was far more tax and PRSI on low wages then. Do you have any comparable data from 1997 and 2007?
Unemployment now is 17.6%, unacceptable, yes, but despite the population rising about 12% and Fruit of the Loom, Magees etc. it was 22% 10 years ago.Average Joe wrote:oh oh..of course, kids don't have to beg in ireland anymore, because we're so much better off these days, right?
and sure, atleast we don't have to ride the coffin ships to america in 2007..ah yeah, i almost forgot we're not living in the 1800's anymore.. :P
Did you experience the 80's? Did you experience the Famine ships either ?
Lets go begging and on the Famine ships, sure they are nearly as bad as we have it now:DAverageJoe wrote:i think all consultants should be sacked, and we source them from another country if necessary, because the current ones are overpaid, and underworked.
Would love it to! But how long would that take and I'm sure the existing consultants would just stay until we sourced the replacements! Patient Care being their main interest of course like the Nurses!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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jimmycrackcorm wrote:...I'd point out that it is relatively easy to walk into a polling station at present and vote with pretty poor quality fake identification. Not only that but there is even less effort required to vote in Dublin in the morning and then head home to Donegal to cast a vote there too by evening.
you're speaking from your own personal experience?jimmycrackcorm wrote:Average Joe, I'd really enjoy a debating pint with you in the Orchard. As I work in middle management myself I understand this... It is the responsibility for top level management to set policy and direction. It is the responsibility for the lower management to implement this policy and that is where it gets bogged down.
well, don't drink anymore, and i don't believe you would really enjoy debating with me that much. haha
i don't know anything about management, but it just seems like common sense, i like to refer to the old chinese proverb "a fish rots from the head down"
if you have incompetent, corrupt politicians.. or in your case, management.. then its inevitable you'll get it down the food chain just as much, and worse in some cases.
you know how employees gossip about what "the boss gets up to"
"Lead by example", isn't that what we were told growing up?
Bertie Ahern and his cronies are all corrupt, and i make no apologies for saying that. i care less that more irish people voted for Fianna Fail this election than before..its just a low mentality.
FF are nothing, i mean nothing but crooks to me.
Recall a quote "you make the mafia look like F@*king monks" after this guy was bribed by a FF member.
i'm not saying you could compare FF to some party in some african nations, where corruption is rife.
But just because its worse over in africa, doesn't mean we should have an acceptable level of it here in ireland.
FF have done nothing for this country, the country didn't do for itself already.
IMO we have nothing to thank them for, at all.
Ireland would still be prosperous, if not in a better position, with or without FF.jimmycrackcorm wrote:Mary did ask for the job and fair play to her for doing so, and I'd quite readily agree that FF were happy for her to take the flak.
hey, no doubt they were happy, because FF don't take the blame from the media..it always looks like its the PDs fault then.jimmycrackcorm wrote:I remember the 80's well. I remember being the only person out of my college course who ended up getting a job in Ireland. I recognise the loss of siblings who emigrated and have family now that I rarely see compared to those who I do see now given that the opportunities do exist at home.
i'm not from this generation, but i understand times were tough, most people just leaving in order to get a better way of life.
I was born in the 80's, and although i've worked in various different jobs, they've never been anything that i could consider doing my whole life.
what i mean by a "proper job" is something that i enjoy doing, something i'm qualified to do, yes..i have to move away for that job, but i'd rather stay here in donegaljimmycrackcorm wrote:I challenge you to define being poor in this day and age in modern Ireland? Who do you know won't get a dinner tomorrow or have any tv to watch...?
Access to a tv, doesn't make you privileged or middle-class.
I don't define "poor" because it can't be defined universally for every situation.
IMO its just about being without something you need.
A playstation 3 is not something you need to live, its a luxary.. a want.
Those kids i see late at night on the street in letterkenny, or in other parts of the town, drinking..i consider them to be "poor" perhaps not compared to a kid in some third world, but by Irelands standards, they are "poor"
there is a whole entire generation of "poor" kids growing up today in ireland, in unstable families, with parents not even capable of looking after themselves.(which you might say is the main problem)
Alot of these youngsters don't even know their real father, that is tough to deal with, and i think its a shame that some young men still go out at the weekend, leave a girl pregnant, and just move on in life, like its no big deal.
Because if the mother isn't being supported financially except on welfare..what kind of life is that for the kid? being part of a "poor" generation.
How do you know those kids aren't going without dinner?
I lived in poor conditions for some years, and it made me very angry, so i know what its like.
i'm not saying i've had it tough compared to kids in "poor countries" but there again..some people like to comfort themselves with an acceptable level of "poorness" it doesn't seem so bad then, does it?jimmycrackcorm wrote:I don't accept the "world owes me" theory that says that should I choose to stay in the North West that a job matching my training should appear. You have to make your own fortune, it won't be handed out to you. Companies such as Pramerica in Letterkenny are testament to government intervention but we can't rely on the government to be the total solution.
of course the world owes me are you mad? there are plenty of jobs in the north west i'd be quite good at, and i'd be quite happy to do them.however, it seems that family&friends come first.jimmycrackcorm wrote:Why don't we talk about it? Let's make a comparison to the sacrifices previous generations made in emigrating before we talk about how the current generation is faring.
Jimmy, you're trying to justify paying crap wages to people because of sacrafices previous generations made in emigrating..
Share the wealth, thats what i say.if an employer is making loads of cash from his employees, he should reward them well.this does happen in some jobs, but not in menial work.. you don't even get paid overtime for that.
I know of employers who deliberately employ foreign nationals to exploit them, reap more profits, this is my problem.
My friend just returned from germany because the employer basically said "hey, you can keep your job, but we'll have to cut your wages down to 150 a week" and the reason was because he was employing polish nationals who agreed to work for less.
We have all these laws in place to stop this practice, but they're never enforced!! so much for living in 2007!jimmycrackcorm wrote:That's not the point. What Economic theory is it that states that everyone born in a particular area is entitled to a rich and deserving career there?
what about africa? lots of diamonds, gold, oil..ooh, you name it, they have it.
They have more than the rest of the world, yet they're also the poorest continent in the world, ironicly.jimmycrackcorm wrote:Well if you want to get a measure of being better off nowadays, I think that a comfy seat on a flight to JFK with multi-choice, in-seat entertainment and on-demand hospitality is a good example.
*sigh* i've yet to enjoy this :Pjimmycrackcorm wrote:Apart from the ethics of effectively stealing consultants from where they are needed more, such as India and Pakistan, a better approach is to negotiate a productive settlement.
productive settlement?? consultants are paid more than they deserve, there really isn't anything to settle.they should do the job they're paid to do, and do it bloody well, instead they keep complaining about not being paid enough..ffs.
I wouldn't like to see them work in fast food outlets.. :rolleyes:seanies32 wrote:Mary Harney did come down strong on the Nurses and the consultants and the Nurses go on Work stoppages, which going by opinion polls had public support. I'd love Harney to ban Unions in the public service, but!
yes, just before an election.. timing was perfectseanies32 wrote:Do you have children? I wouldn't buy mine a Playstation 3 either but what about Nintendo's, PS 2's , PSP'S and games at €50/60 ago. Nearly all kids have these done and the money is coming from somewhere.
no, i don't have children.i can't afford to buy a ps3, and i can't afford to support children..but then i don't work either..even if i did, on a minimum wage, i would have more things to worry about.ps3 and children, no for me.seanies32 wrote:There was no minimum wage in 1997 and there was far more tax and PRSI on low wages then. Do you have any comparable data from 1997 and 2007?
Unemployment now is 17.6%, unacceptable, yes, but despite the population rising about 12% and Fruit of the Loom, Magees etc. it was 22% 10 years ago.
i remember working 7 years ago in a place, i had to stand all day behind a machine and feed it bottles.i got a half-hour break, which i was told would be made up at the end of the day..not only that, but i was then expected to ensure enough material ready for next day, normally full day would be about 10 hours.
i did about 61 hours in 6 days (half day saturday) one week, and i got paid 141 punt, roughly 2.30 an hour.
other people i worked with got twice that for less hours, and less work, because they knew the boss well.
when i mentioned to the boss i wasn't happy about what i was being paid, and expected the minimum wage at the time (which was about 4.40 an hour), he went mad..saying i didn't want to "give the job a chance".
give what a chance? him to make me work more for virtually nothing?
I complained to some employment authority at the time, nothing happened, they responded and said that nothing was being done illegally, and that the new minimum wage legislation only applied to those of a certain age.RUBBISH.
The law meant nothing, it was just to appease euro states..it means NOTHING.
Only last year, i met a polish man who was working 40-50 hours a week for hundred euros.a polish girl was working in that ****hole internet cafe on the high-road for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, and being paid nothing.
i have friends who are working for minimum wage, and they don't get paid overtime unless its special holidays like christmas, new year.
I'm sick hearin people talk about how tough it was back in the eighties, and how "good we have it" ..we're not in eighties anymore man! this is 2007!
if an employer is making good money, there is no reason why his employees can't be making it either, providing a job is done well.
one thing i hate is an unscrupulous employer making money off the backs of human beings and not paying them properly for the work they do.seanies32 wrote:Did you experience the 80's? Did you experience the Famine ships either ?
Lets go begging and on the Famine ships, sure they are nearly as bad as we have it now
i had the experience because RTE had nothing better to broadcast, i later sold my tv in disgust.0 -
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muffler wrote:Carry on lads cause i dont have the time to read the posts in detail.
If any of you feel that something is amiss in a post then hit that red and white triangle and I'll be alerted.
Good thread and going well
Goodness, muffler compliments a thread started by Paddy20 .
Personally, I did not expect this thread to develop or last after the election was over, but I never cease to be amazed at how an obscure thread can trigger an interesting debate . . Maybe there is method in my madness ?..
P.:cool:0 -
Great to see a bit of debate on the NW board.
This is better than the politics boards where you just get people from political parties usually fighting the party line. Though I think Average Joe has his own line;)
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorm
...I'd point out that it is relatively easy to walk into a polling station at present and vote with pretty poor quality fake identification. Not only that but there is even less effort required to vote in Dublin in the morning and then head home to Donegal to cast a vote there too by evening.Average Joe wrote:you're speaking from your own personal experience?
I had thought the recent revision of the election had cleared up a lot of this double voting and the dead voting! The simplest way is for everybody on the register to quote their PPS No. which is unique, to ensure that nobody votes twice or loses their vote. But wait for the civil rights groups saying its an invasion of our rights and of course for the software Co. to f*** that up!:)Average Joe wrote:i don't know anything about management, but it just seems like common sense, i like to refer to the old chinese proverb "a fish rots from the head down"
if you have incompetent, corrupt politicians.. or in your case, management.. then its inevitable you'll get it down the food chain just as much, and worse in some cases.
you know how employees gossip about what "the boss gets up to"
"Lead by example", isn't that what we were told growing up?
Yes, of course that is true to an extent. Employees still have some responsiblity regardless. Eg. the Nurses getting a 35 hour week and a 10% pay increase is not reasonable and for the greater good of the Health Service and society generally. Unions are part of social partnership which confers certain responsibilities as well as benefits. Also the black economy was at least 20% (conservative estimate) of the total economy in the 80's. That's what happens when there is 65% tax rates and the Govt. gets 65% of any overtime you earn. It has changed dramatically now.Average Joe wrote:FF have done nothing for this country, the country didn't do for itself already.
IMO we have nothing to thank them for, at all.
Ireland would still be prosperous, if not in a better position, with or without FF.
Accepted, but they did show political leadership in the late 80's when FG/Lab had their chance in Govt. and did nothing despite preaching endlessly that they would do it.
Look, not defending any Party or another, the facts are that FF brought us into the mess in the 80's along with FG/Lab, FF where the only party to bring us out of it. Really, as you say you aren't politically aware of the 80's and what a failed economy it was. Take Poland now, with mass emigration, actually they have hope, make it Albania nd then double it.Average Joe wrote:hey, no doubt they were happy, because FF don't take the blame from the media..it always looks like its the PDs fault then.
FF got plenty of flack about Health including Enda Kenny saying Ahern said we didn't have a bad service, etc. etc. The problem was FF/PD's had a radical policy on health, i.e. co-location, whether you agree with it, it was different, wheras FG/Lab just said lets keep pumping more money at it, and when questioned there figures didn't add up. Mary Harney got a very good personal vote because she is a respected politician unlike McDowell, hence the PD's problems.Average Joe wrote:i'm not from this generation, but i understand times were tough, most people just leaving in order to get a better way of life.
No, just leaving to get a life!Average Joe wrote:I was born in the 80's, and although i've worked in various different jobs, they've never been anything that i could consider doing my whole life.
what i mean by a "proper job" is something that i enjoy doing, something i'm qualified to do, yes..i have to move away for that job, but i'd rather stay here in donegal
Seriously, do you blame the Govt. for you not finding a job that you enjoy. That is up to you. That is your personal choice, not the Govts.Average Joe wrote:IMO its just about being without something you need.
A playstation 3 is not something you need to live, its a luxary.. a want.
Unfortunately one of the negatives of the successful economy is people who spend or borrow on 4/8 Bed houses for a couple with one child, an SUV and a car, the LCD TV etc. etc. because the Jones have it, but the Govt. can't tell them not to do it and physically stop them from doing it, it's personal choice.People bring shallow has more to do with their upbringing than Govt.Average Joe wrote:Those kids i see late at night on the street in letterkenny, or in other parts of the town, drinking..i consider them to be "poor" perhaps not compared to a kid in some third world, but by Irelands standards, they are "poor"
This hasn't suddenly started in the 00's. Always went on, more a social and parental problem and a Govt. problem.Average Joe wrote:Alot of these youngsters don't even know their real father, that is tough to deal with, and i think its a shame that some young men still go out at the weekend, leave a girl pregnant, and just move on in life, like its no big deal.
True and plenty of unmarried fathers who want to have a role and who have no rights whatsoever under our constitution, no guardianship, no entitlement to have their name on the Birth Cert, no entitlement to be consulted if the mother decides to adopt the child at any stage.There's two sides to every story. Fathers who just move on need to be tracked down and maintenance deducted automatically from Wages/SW and a Parenting course provided at the minimum.
What about Mothers who block access because of bitterness over a past relationship and make up lies about the father just to spite the father, when of course all they are doing, is spiting the child.Average Joe wrote:i'm not saying i've had it tough compared to kids in "poor countries" but there again..some people like to comfort themselves with an acceptable level of "poorness" it doesn't seem so bad then, does it?
I don't think anybody has suggested that. But remember Bono's "poor countries" that he is campaigning for now, we where one of them countries, just 20 years ago. I hope we get the same level of improvement in the next 20 years. This country didn't have the money to help "poor" people 20 years ago, it now has.Average Joe wrote:I know of employers who deliberately employ foreign nationals to exploit them, reap more profits, this is my problem.
My friend just returned from germany because the employer basically said "hey, you can keep your job, but we'll have to cut your wages down to 150 a week" and the reason was because he was employing polish nationals who agreed to work for less.
We have all these laws in place to stop this practice, but they're never enforced!! so much for living in 2007!
Report them, no job is better than these jobs.Average Joe wrote:productive settlement?? consultants are paid more than they deserve, there really isn't anything to settle.they should do the job they're paid to do, and do it bloody well, instead they keep complaining about not being paid enough..ffs.
I wouldn't like to see them work in fast food outlets.. :rolleyes:
Well good luck as the Min. for Health! Then again I wouldn't put fast food staff in Hospital Theatres:rolleyes:
We all know they're well paid, probably overpaid, what, lets sack them and put then in the Four Lights. That will help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanies32
Mary Harney did come down strong on the Nurses and the consultants and the Nurses go on Work stoppages, which going by opinion polls had public support. I'd love Harney to ban Unions in the public service, but!Average Joe wrote:yes, just before an election.. timing was perfect
Do you know why they where striking? Because the Politicians/Management supposedly didn't deliver on a 35 Hr week promise in 1980. So much for the 8 elections since for Nurses! The Nurses got about 20% of what they where looking for and when they moan again they will get a small part again except with changes to work practices.Average Joe wrote:i remember working 7 years ago in a place, i had to stand all day behind a machine and feed it bottles.i got a half-hour break, which i was told would be made up at the end of the day..not only that, but i was then expected to ensure enough material ready for next day, normally full day would be about 10 hours.
i did about 61 hours in 6 days (half day saturday) one week, and i got paid 141 punt, roughly 2.30 an hour.
other people i worked with got twice that for less hours, and less work, because they knew the boss well.
when i mentioned to the boss i wasn't happy about what i was being paid, and expected the minimum wage at the time (which was about 4.40 an hour), he went mad..saying i didn't want to "give the job a chance".
give what a chance? him to make me work more for virtually nothing?
I complained to some employment authority at the time, nothing happened, they responded and said that nothing was being done illegally, and that the new minimum wage legislation only applied to those of a certain age.RUBBISH.
The law meant nothing, it was just to appease euro states..it means NOTHING.
The law was introduced in 02, it has been improved and bettered since. I think the average, even in training now is about €5. Complain, complain and report, if no good, take them to an employment tribunal, you would have proof. No job is better than this. Don't blame the Govt. the law is there.Average Joe wrote:Only last year, i met a polish man who was working 40-50 hours a week for hundred euros.a polish girl was working in that ****hole internet cafe on the high-road for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, and being paid nothing.
i have friends who are working for minimum wage, and they don't get paid overtime unless its special holidays like christmas, new year.
Same as above. The law is there, use it.Average Joe wrote:I'm sick hearin people talk about how tough it was back in the eighties, and how "good we have it" ..we're not in eighties anymore man! this is 2007!
if an employer is making good money, there is no reason why his employees can't be making it either, providing a job is done well.
one thing i hate is an unscrupulous employer making money off the backs of human beings and not paying them properly for the work they do.
Use the rights the Govt. has awarded you to change these situations.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Seanies32 wrote:Yes, of course that is true to an extent. Employees still have some responsiblity regardless. Eg. the Nurses getting a 35 hour week and a 10% pay increase is not reasonable and for the greater good of the Health Service and society generally. Unions are part of social partnership which confers certain responsibilities as well as benefits. Also the black economy was at least 20% (conservative estimate) of the total economy in the 80's. That's what happens when there is 65% tax rates and the Govt. gets 65% of any overtime you earn. It has changed dramatically now.
Why is a 10% pay increase not reasonable? do we not value their services to the state?
I value a nurse more than a guard or teacher any day.
Atleast most nurses actually DO SOMETHING.
A nurses job is more difficult than a guards or teachers IMO, so they deserve better job conditions and pay.
Have you ever been a nurse before? i haven't, but i can say it looks a bit harder than being a teacher or guard, i am certain of that.Seanies32 wrote:FF got plenty of flack about Health including Enda Kenny saying Ahern said we didn't have a bad service, etc. etc. The problem was FF/PD's had a radical policy on health, i.e. co-location, whether you agree with it, it was different, wheras FG/Lab just said lets keep pumping more money at it, and when questioned there figures didn't add up. Mary Harney got a very good personal vote because she is a respected politician unlike McDowell, hence the PD's problems.
michael moore has a new film out called 'sicko' and the views expressed in that should sound familiar to alot of irish people in the future, if the state continues to bleed the public health system of much needed funds, and direct it into so-called 'co-location'
if you want this, support it, pretty much everything against, has been said, and of course ignored.
FF dont want the public health system to work anymore..that is CRYSTAL CLEAR.
FF is, IMO deliberately lowering the quality of the service by tightening its expenditure over a long period, until people are literally sick of it, opting for private care instead...and at the same time FF then come up with the "solution"...'co-location'
Its the exact same process going on with the water services, just look at galway and the cryptosporidium outbreak, that was an accident waiting to happen.
The population has been increasing steadily, yet the proper infrastructure hasn't, simply because the government aren't focusing on it..they don't care.
Its no different with hospitals..
You can't run a hospital efficiently on the same budget every year if your population is growing,thats common sense.
You or jimmy or anyone else for that matter cannot seriously say some of the biggest problems facing this country has nothing to do with FF!!
It has EVERYTHING to do with them, they're utterly incompetent!
the roads, the sewerage systems, schools, hospitals, police, doctors, nurses, telecommunications (please don't blame eircom, because the government have let them away with murder), public transport, affordable housing, the justice system..this is all the governments job, and they've failed miserably in everything!!
The only thing FF have succeeded in is get themselves, and their buddies in the construction industry MEGA RICH.Seanies32 wrote:Seriously, do you blame the Govt. for you not finding a job that you enjoy. That is up to you. That is your personal choice, not the Govts.
No, i don't recall blaming the government for not finding a job i enjoy.
But some people have denied me opportunities in favour of their family or friends, even if i was more suitable for a job/task.that angers me.Seanies32 wrote:Unfortunately one of the negatives of the successful economy is people who spend or borrow on 4/8 Bed houses for a couple with one child, an SUV and a car, the LCD TV etc. etc. because the Jones have it, but the Govt. can't tell them not to do it and physically stop them from doing it, it's personal choice.People bring shallow has more to do with their upbringing than Govt.
yeah, i heard a guy on the radio once who said "one swipe away from the dream!" and another saying that when he was young "we didn't worry about money, maybe just to go to a dance, buy a girl a mineral"
imo, the media has alot to do with how people choose, as i quoted the last guy, when there was no tv around, peoples priorities were different.Seanies32 wrote:This hasn't suddenly started in the 00's. Always went on, more a social and parental problem and a Govt. problem.
i know..but wouldn't it be great to see some of these deprived kids do well in life for themselves, instead of watching them going down the self-destructive path that they're currently on?
I've talked with some people who say tripe like "ahhh!, that boy ill never do anything with himself!" "look at that waster there, hay!"
all negative comments about certain young people who just haven't been given the same opportunities in life as maybe those in say, middle-class families.
And i'm not attacking people from middle-class families either, i'm just saying that life is a little more difficult when you're not from that background.
think of yourself in these kids situation, right now they don't know any better, because they've been brought up like that.
its possible to help them, but only with good leadership and willingness from government to support it, financially of course, make the resources available.
I know one thing for sure, we'll all pay for it in future if its not sorted out now.
Would you rather see them become good people in society, or let them continue to be self-destructive?
The government might not be completely responsible, but they have more power than you or i to deal with the problem, today, not lock them up in the future...that solves nothing.
And NO, IMO ASBOS will NOT work!!Seanies32 wrote:True and plenty of unmarried fathers who want to have a role and who have no rights whatsoever under our constitution, no guardianship, no entitlement to have their name on the Birth Cert, no entitlement to be consulted if the mother decides to adopt the child at any stage.There's two sides to every story. Fathers who just move on need to be tracked down and maintenance deducted automatically from Wages/SW and a Parenting course provided at the minimum.
What about Mothers who block access because of bitterness over a past relationship and make up lies about the father just to spite the father, when of course all they are doing, is spiting the child.
I know a few guys that are affected by this problem..and i'm not taking any sides, because its hard to say who is at fault.Seanies32 wrote:Report them, no job is better than these jobs.
I did!! said it would take up to 18 months before the employer could be investigated.
See the problems? those laws look good on paper, but they don't work, ask anyone who has tried to excercise them.
Its FACT, you'll get a prosecution for cruelty to animals quicker,
than you will for an employer abusing a human being.
You couldn't expect a person to work for 100 euro a week for 18 months,
just to get an investigation.. could you? i wouldn't, its not realistic.
Its easy for you to say, like so many others in this country "report them"
"use the law"
bottom line is this, nobody is going to help you.
don't think i haven't tried to get help from authorities in other circumstances aswell.i even went to a local newspaper, and he turned around and said "hmm, yeah...thats not really news though, is it?"
the law is great, sure..but it only serves the high and powerful in society.Seanies32 wrote:Well good luck as the Min. for Health! Then again I wouldn't put fast food staff in Hospital Theatres
We all know they're well paid, probably overpaid, what, lets sack them and put then in the Four Lights. That will help.
Seanies..you'd be surprised who works in some of these places, really.
looks can be deceptive. i've not met a doctor yet, but i'd say just because someone works in fast food doesn't make them any less of a person intellectually.
They could be a qualified doctor, but perhaps unable to work for some reason, you never know.Just like some doctors in our hospitals might not be qualified themselves.
yes, some consultants have a tough job, but i'd say they're paid very well.
Are you saying that 2.30 an hour was ok then? i only worked there 6 months.Seanies32 wrote:The law was introduced in 02, it has been improved and bettered since. I think the average, even in training now is about €5. Complain, complain and report, if no good, take them to an employment tribunal, you would have proof. No job is better than this. Don't blame the Govt. the law is there.
i left with an injury to my ankle which i still have today.
you have all the answers, but have obviously never been in a situation where you are being underpaid, and unable to do anything about it, otherwise you would know, the government doesn't give a damn.
5 euro an hour, lets work it out, normal 40 hour week, 200 euro..hmm
are you sure thats enough seanie? or should i work 60 hours just to live, and no more..thats not a life.
rent - 80 -> 120
heat - ??
food - ??
other bills like electric, your HEALTH..i would LOVE to see you survive on 200 euro a week, really.Seanies32 wrote:Same as above. The law is there, use it.
"the law" lol its there alright, but nobodies home :P0 -
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muffler wrote:Seanies32, I have come to the firm conclusion that you have too much time on your hands and can type at 300 words/minute
Well the 300 words/minute does lead to more time and the bottle of wine probably didn't help either.:DAverage Joe wrote:Why is a 10% pay increase not reasonable? do we not value their services to the state?
Well they didn't get 10% so obviously it wasn't reasonable. I value the Health Service in general more than Nurses, consultants individually.Average Joe wrote:Have you ever been a nurse before? i haven't, but i can say it looks a bit harder than being a teacher or guard, i am certain of that.
Well my ex partner was one. Have you been a guard eithe? Worked in Store or Pearse Street in Dublin, worked in buildings that are condemned, put up abuse from people who no matter what you do will always hold you in contempt. Nurses have a tough job but I think generalisations then turns the debate into my job is more difficult than yours.Average Joe wrote:michael moore has a new film out called 'sicko' and the views expressed in that should sound familiar to alot of irish people in the future, if the state continues to bleed the public health system of much needed funds, and direct it into so-called 'co-location'
if you want this, support it, pretty much everything against, has been said, and of course ignored.
We already have the private health sector bleeding the Public health system and being directly funded and co-located.Average Joe wrote:FF dont want the public health system to work anymore..that is CRYSTAL CLEAR.
FF is, IMO deliberately lowering the quality of the service by tightening its expenditure over a long period, until people are literally sick of it, opting for private care instead...and at the same time FF then come up with the "solution"...'co-location'
I take it you have facts for the tightening of expenditure. Actually health insurance for all mightened be a bad idea. Germany has it.Average Joe wrote:Its no different with hospitals..
You can't run a hospital efficiently on the same budget every year if your population is growing,thats common sense.
So you can account for how Health expenditure has almost trebled in 10 years and hospital budgets are the same every year?
Obviously a large part of the extra money has gone on staff, increases in numbers and wages. Back to the vested interests of the Unions. Massive increases in numbers but just small improvements in parts of the system. I was listening to a consultant on the radio and he was saying its amazing how private hospitals are more efficient, better run, and have less consultants, nurses and administration staff.Average Joe wrote:imo, the media has alot to do with how people choose, as i quoted the last guy, when there was no tv around, peoples priorities were different
Agreed but people have personal choices and responsibilities to ignore it.Average Joe wrote:You couldn't expect a person to work for 100 euro a week for 18 months,
just to get an investigation.. could you? i wouldn't, its not realistic.
Its easy for you to say, like so many others in this country "report them"
"use the law"
Move job but still report them. You'd be better on the dole and if the dole asks why did you leave tell them. They can't expect you to work for somebody who is breaking the law.Average Joe wrote:Seanies..you'd be surprised who works in some of these places, really.
looks can be deceptive. i've not met a doctor yet, but i'd say just because someone works in fast food doesn't make them any less of a person intellectually.
Thats a big assumption for you to make, where did I say that?Average Joe wrote:Are you saying that 2.30 an hour was ok then? i only worked there 6 months.
i left with an injury to my ankle which i still have today.
you have all the answers, but have obviously never been in a situation where you are being underpaid, and unable to do anything about it, otherwise you would know, the government doesn't give a damn.
Yes I worked for £68 per week 12 years ago in Dublin. Wasn't even £2. More assumptions.
2.30 is not ok, read my earlier posts. I wouldn't say report them if I thought it was ok.
6.06 is the minimum for a Trainee as and from 1 July. Not great but better than 2.30 The proper minimum is 8.65.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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