Disclosure of crash damage when selling

fasty

Do private sellers need to disclose info about crashes when selling a car or trading it in? I'm trying to solve a massive argument I got into about this last night.

I'm trading up soon and my car was in a crash over 14 months ago. It needed a new door and wing and while it's almost perfect, if you look, you can tell it was resprayed.

I figure there's no way anyone but a complete idiot wouldn't notice, so why not tell them if they ask? Everyone's telling me I'd be mad to tell them and should just play dumb about it. The Garda weren't involved but the repairs were claimed on my insurance so it's not like someone couldn't find out later and sue me in the face.

Cyrus

i would be upfront about it and mention it in any advert, at least that way someone wont waste a trip and be disappointed when they discover crash damage, if its properly repaired most people wont mind.

have you an invoice for the repair stating what was done?

Owen

If you're trading it into a Dealer, one of the sections on the SIMI form, in the field where the Dealer purchases your vehicle off you deals with this. It will ask you if the vehicle has had any damage, and if it has had any repairs. If you deny both, and sign the contract, the Dealer can come back to you at a later date.

If you're selling it privately, it's Caveat Emptor. But that still won't stop an angry owner coming back to you, and complaining.

fasty

Yeah, I've got the invoice.

I know that it'll give the buyer a bargaining chip to reduce the price but these things happen.

Personally I was thinking of not saying it in adverts but mentioning it over the phone if someone called.

EDIT:
Thanks Ned78, this is exactly what I suspected! I wouldn't feel right about deceiving a buyer anyway, I was a bit naive when I bought it and found out later the owner had ground the clutch up good. I was a new driver so I didn't have a clue :P

Anan1

fasty wrote:

Yeah, I've got the invoice.

I know that it'll give the buyer a bargaining chip to reduce the price but these things happen.

Personally I was thinking of not saying it in adverts but mentioning it over the phone if someone called.

EDIT:
Thanks Ned78, this is exactly what I suspected! I wouldn't feel right about deceiving a buyer anyway, I was a bit naive when I bought it and found out later the owner had ground the clutch up good. I was a new driver so I didn't have a clue :P

This is what I would advise too. Quite apart from the legal implications, it's nice to feel like a decent person when you wake up in the morning. How would the people who advised you feel if they were unwittingly sold a crashed car? I have to say, I wouldn't have a lot of sympathy for them.:)

Caliden

If they ask you should tell them really, otherwise it may come back to you at a later date with bad consequences.

old boy

if it was done properly then you could not tell, most car salesmen will not see it,

jame5_b

A few years back a friend bought a crashed Nissan sunny which had been rolled. He got it completely repaired by an excellent panel beater. When it was finished the car looked brand new. He kept it for a year or two then traded it into a main Nissan dealer a didn’t mention it. A mechanic from the garage even gave it a look over and commented on how well looked after it was.
Just because a car has been repaired doesn’t mean it can’t be fixed back to original condition. With enough money anything can be done...

Owen

OP, please ignore old boy and jame5_b's posts. This attitude of 'sure if the salesman doesn't see it I'm grand' doesn't wash. First of all, it's exactly the same thing as a salesman selling a person a crashed car, if you trade in a car, you sign contracts stating the vehicle hasn't been crash damaged. If you lie, you're liable for the price of the part exchange allowance, less the scrappage value of the car you traded in.

'With money', no car can be 100% no matter how much you spend on it. There will always be tell tale signs if you dig deep enough.

Wishbone Ash

In all fairness, a collision with a dog could warrant the replacement of a wing or door. OP - was there any chasis damage?

Personally I would always inform a potential private buyer about any damage but, if trading in, I would wait until asked.

Owen

Wishbone Ash wrote:

f trading in, I would wait until asked.

Unfortunately, if you sign the SIMI form saying that the car wasn't damaged (There's a section for it), and even if the Salesperson doesn't ask, then you're liable for costs.

bazz26

ned78 wrote:

Unfortunately, if you sign the SIMI form saying that the car wasn't damaged (There's a section for it), and even if the Salesperson doesn't ask, then you're liable for costs.

Is there any stats out there to show how many people have been found liable in such cases?

I'm not doubting you but just curious as I've looked at numerous cars on different forecourts over time and have seen crashed repaired cars, some good, some very poor obvious repair jobs and to be honest while some garages have said up front that the car has been painted or repaired, not all have been so honest and upfront about the cars they are selling. When pointed out to them they just have a bewildered look on their face, say it's news to them or claim to know nothing about it.

Owen

bazz26 wrote:

Is there any stats out there to show how many people have been found liable in such cases?

Who knows? But I've done it, and I've heard of quite a few other places doing it too. People complain all the time about Dealers needing to be honest, and on this thread, we have people actually promoting the idea of lying about crash damage, probably unaware that they're signing a legally binding contract.

The advice I'm giving is sound, and in mind to protect the OP in all eventualities.

jame5_b

im not telling the op to trade or sell the car and say nothing. i would never trade in or sell a crashed car because i no how sickening it is to buy one. My brother bought a focus last year and found out it had a new door, wing and quarter panel. He only discovered the damaged from a garage when he brought the car in to get fixed after he caught the bumper off a gate. He even asked the seller when he was buying it if it had been crashed and he no..

jame5_b

how can you say
"'With money', no car can be 100% no matter how much you spend on it. "
does this mean if you replace a bumper or a door and get it done properly it wont be back to the way it was?

Owen

Yes. There will always be a difference between the paint on the new door, and the original paint in terms of colour, and depth of layers. It's possible to use a meter to measure the depth of paint between the new door, and an original panel, say the bonnet. On top of this, it's also possible to visually inspect the shut lines of the door, to examine the hinge mechanism to see if it had been dismantled and rebuilt, and to inspect the likes of a bumper for paint defects too. Any professional crash assessor worth their salt can tell when a door/bumper has been replaced/repainted.

However, 99% of people just won't give a damn. The boys on this Forum who've served their time as panel beaters can give you a better explanation than mine.

drdre

Just tell them about it, be upfront as it will not cause hassle in the future

bazz26

ned78 wrote:

Who knows? But I've done it, and I've heard of quite a few other places doing it too. People complain all the time about Dealers needing to be honest, and on this thread, we have people actually promoting the idea of lying about crash damage, probably unaware that they're signing a legally binding contract.

The advice I'm giving is sound, and in mind to protect the OP in all eventualities.

Yeah you read or hear of customers who have received refunds or compensation from dealers who sold them a crashed car unknowning to the customer but you rarely read or hear of the opposite.

Owen

bazz26 wrote:

Yeah you read or hear of customers who have received refunds or compensation from dealers who sold them a crashed car unknowning to the customer but you rarely read or hear of the opposite.

Probably as people would hardly shout from the roof tops how they tried to trade in a crashed car, and had to pay compensation to the Dealer because they were so untruthful in the first place. In the other scenario, where the Dealer sells a crashed car, and they get compensation, they'll tell all their friends, post on boards, phone Joe Duffy, and get a tattoo just for the fond memories.

bazz26

ned78 wrote:

Probably as people would hardly shout from the roof tops how they tried to trade in a crashed car, and had to pay compensation to the Dealer because they were so untruthful in the first place. In the other scenario, where the Dealer sells a crashed car, and they get compensation, they'll tell all their friends, post on boards, phone Joe Duffy, and get a tattoo just for the fond memories.

Indeed.

jame5_b

do dealers even dock you that much anyway off the trade in price if tell them it had a minor repair?

Owen

It depends on the standard of the job James, and whether or not it was structural, or superficial damage.

JHMEG

ned78 wrote:

had to pay compensation to the Dealer because they were so untruthful in the first place.

Ned, I think you're flogging a dead horse here. There are a few people who posted here on boards after they discovered their car had been crash damaged (sometimes long) after they bought it from a dealer. And have been having trouble with the Ministry for Silly Walks, sorry I mean SIMI, ever since. Who only ever seem to meet when there's a full moon.

To the OP, I would not mention in any ads that it was damaged. That will put people off coming to view it. And if no-one views, no-one will buy. When they get there you can tell them not that it was crashed, but that it was damaged and has a new wing and door, that is of course if they enquire.

As someone else said, the quality of the repair job is the important thing.

Owen

JHMEG wrote:

There are a few people who posted here on boards after they discovered their car had been crash damaged (sometimes long) after they bought it from a dealer. And have been having trouble with the Ministry for Silly Walks, sorry I mean SIMI, ever since.

No one's disputing that. My point was completely separate. Although, I'm going to steal your "Ministry for Silly Walks" title for the SIMI and use it in every meeting at work from now on. Priceless!

JHMEG wrote:

As someone else said, the quality of the repair job is the important thing.

Funnily enough, that was me.

RoundyMooney

Personally speaking (as a private buyer), if a motor had been pranged, and professionally and competently repaired, it wouldn't bother me in the least. Just because new paint may be visible under close scrutiny, does not necessarily mean that the job wasn't up to par in the first place, even though a dicky repair will stick out like a broken nose.

In the real world, evidence or declaration of prior damage when selling/trading in a vehicle on a forecourt *may* lead to the buyer/dealer using the repair work as a bargaining tool on the price, regardless of the vehicles present condition.

I'll leave it to others to decide how widespread this practise may be.

Personally, I'd tell any potential buyer, anyway. It (should) cost nothing to be honest

fasty

oldboy and jame5_b,

I understand what you're saying, but I wasn't really asking if the repair work was perfect or not. What I wanted to know was what I am legally obliged to say not if I should chance getting away with it.

Either way I'll be telling whoever takes the car off my hands but as I said, I'm trying to win an argument with friends who think I'm mad for doing so.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

In all fairness, a collision with a dog could warrant the replacement of a wing or door. OP - was there any chasis damage?

Personally I would always inform a potential private buyer about any damage but, if trading in, I would wait until asked.

It was a collision with another car, the passenger wing and door needed to be replaced, as did the suspension on that side of the car.