FG/FF Supporters

cm2000

Seanies32 wrote:

I'm exhausted after all that! But listen if FG don't get in the next time after 23/25 years in Govt. you can stop calling this a democracy, and I'll agree with FG/Lab voters

Then FF will be the natural party of Govt. FACT!

If Ireland can't have a proper opposition after 23/25 years well we might as well have one party govt., which I don't agree, either FF or FG.

IT IS democracy at work. people dont want a change. when they do we will have a change. "if it aint broke, dont fix it". until it hits our pockets, people dont care as much but thats democracy at work. if everyone was broke, living in squallar then it would change but we live in a middle class country and we're not risking it.

Crash

I voted for an alternative government, and under the following ideals: Education and health.

Primarily, I never, EVER want to deal with Mary Hanafin as minister for education ever again. anyone who's willing to ignore the third level funding crisis that does exist, and refuse to answer questions directly asked to her by students, does not deserve her vote and as such does not deserve support for her party. Secondly the lack of any support for students in term of support for funding for college health services was distinctly lacking in all parties, under which circumstances I had to remove that from my views.

To all who want to state that i'm just being a filthy student, go ahead. but you know what, sometimes we're needed. and we have a gigantic third level funding crisis that if you look at the accounts is awful, and we need a government who can fix that, not one who's ignored it. I'm nearly finished the sytem - 1 year more and i'm out of here. What I do want is to be able to turn around in five years, look back at my college and see graduates of the same level coming out - in fact they should be of a higher level. anything less is a disgrace, and should be treated as such.

jjbrien

jjbrien wrote:

Increased vat on esb/gas bills from 13.5% to 21%.

FG are in favor to direct taxation and not by stealth.

Clearly you don't pay either of these as the rate is 13.5% not 21%


While I'm here,if I see any more jib from any poster here towards another,in this thread or another,I'll dole out one of my EXTRA SPECIAL one month bans.

Elmo

Just to be clear on VAT

The ESB, Bord Gais and Airtricity charge 13.5% VAT.

To be totally clear on VAT, in Ireland we have 3 bands

0% generally on food and Childrens' shoe/clothes (confectionary and coffee @ 21%, their are other non-esential foods that are also charged @21%)
13.5% on utilities (as above)
21% on holidays, electrical goods etc.

Don't mention Childrens' shoes to FG, they joked about it in the 1980's (no one else found it funny).

What I don't see and what I still amn't getting from FG/FF supports is the difference between both parties.

I have to agree with the Greens FG are FF Lite.

Ok I support the Greens.

Also to rephrase the inital question:-

In 2007 you had

44 green camdidates
50 labour candidates
27 pd candidates
41 Sinn Fein candidates

Why not vote as you see fit rather then along party lines. Espically when party lines aren't all that far apart.

Ruen

Elmo wrote:

I was reading somewhere that one FF supporter would like Mary Harney to be in their party, if you support Mary Harney then surely you could give up the old party ties (civil war ties) and vote PD, if that's what you want.

Of course you could, the PD's are just FF in disguise. They're practically interchangeable.

Breezer

Elmo wrote:

Also to rephrase the inital question:-

In 2007 you had

44 green camdidates
50 labour candidates
27 pd candidates
41 Sinn Fein candidates

Why not vote as you see fit rather then along party lines. Espically when party lines aren't all that far apart.

Because realistically, either Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael are going to lead every government in this country for the foreseeable future. Whether we like it or not it's a choice between one or the other, and then it's just a question of who makes up the rest of the coalition. Since we can give several preferences, people would tend to give them to one or the other in order to try influence the make-up of the government, even if they may have given their number one to a smaller party. Pre-election pacts add to this.

There is very little difference between the parties' policies. The difference at the moment seems to be a perceived lack of moral integrity and a perceived complacency among Fianna Fáil, versus a perceived lack of experience and realism among Fine Gael.

jjbrien

Tristrame wrote:

Clearly you don't pay either of these as the rate is 13.5% not 21%


While I'm here,if I see any more jib from any poster here towards another,in this thread or another,I'll dole out one of my EXTRA SPECIAL one month bans.

Ok I stand corrected on the vat on esb and gas I do pay these I don’t usually look at the vat.

But thanks to FF they put a standing charge on my gas bill of 45.31 in the last 2 months my bill was only 88 euro meaning more than half was FF standing charge. A little unfair I think.

I think we live in a fantastic country. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. And I think FF and FG contributed far more to this than the miscellaneous smaller parties that have done little or nothing to get us to where we are today, though the PDs and Labour can pat themselves on the back more so than others. As for distinguishing, as I have said many times it's the North. FF prioritise it, always have. And that's important to me, I don't expect others to have the same feelings.

Elmo

I think we live in a fantastic country. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. And I think FF and FG contributed far more to this than the miscellaneous smaller parties that have done little or nothing to get us to where we are today, though the PDs and Labour can pat themselves on the back more so than others. As for distinguishing, as I have said many times it's the North. FF prioritise it, always have. And that's important to me, I don't expect others to have the same feelings.

But surely voters aren't giving other parties a chance.

Even here we see that most consider Labour a small party yet they had 10 less TDs then FG had in the 29th dail. I find it a problem with Labour that they too tend to see themselfs as a smaller party. While not a supporter of Labour, I do feel that they should have had more candidates, if they want to be taken seriously as a "big" party.

The PDs and Labour are the only two "smaller" parties to be in government out of the current crop of small parties.

Surely CnaP and other extinct parties can also pat themself on the back for propping up FG and FF.

This idea of experience is rubbish, out of all of the Ministers from the 29th and 30th who many had a portfolio in previous governments?

Húrin

Mick86 wrote:

FG was in government from 1994 to 1997

They didn't get there by election.

mickd wrote:

I vote for FF because the greatest economic achievements of this country in the last 20 years were when FF were in power. Apart from the courage and leadership of Alan Dukes, FG have contributed very little.

For a hundred thousand or more Irish young people, FG/Labour have made a huge contribution, namely the free fees scheme.

Why vote for FF for the economy when you can vote PD? They deserve much more credit than many voters give them. FF are the bread; PDs are the flavour.

Collie D

Seanies32 wrote:

And before people say FF got only 42% well PD's got 2 and SF, who where considering FF and nobody else got 6 so that's at least 50%. SF where considering supporting FF for their own reasons , not FF considering SF support.

Now that's a bizarre statement to make. So a vote for Sinn Fén was a vote for Fianna Fáil? :rolleyes:

K-9

Collie D wrote:

Now that's a bizarre statement to make. So a vote for Sinn Fén was a vote for Fianna Fáil? :rolleyes:

Well, did you listen to Adams in the days before the election? They would consider supporting FF but not FG.

It's using the same logic as the Greens would be a vote for the alliance if the alliance got in, they did run on a ABFF policy.

I'm not saying a vote for SF was wholely for FF but you have to consider the respective parties position on Govt. which was for their own reasons.

H&#250 wrote: »

For a hundred thousand or more Irish young people, FG/Labour have made a huge contribution, namely the free fees scheme.
Why vote for FF for the economy when you can vote PD? They deserve much more credit than many voters give them. FF are the bread; PDs are the flavour.

Ah yeah, that old chestnut, Free fees for the middle and upper classes and just the status quo for the disadvantaged.

Far better than Harney's (with FF support) introduction of the minimum wage and Cowen removing it from tax and PRSI, things that FG/Lab could only dream about doing 10 years ago.

Elmo

Far better than Harney's (with FF support) introduction of the minimum wage and Cowen removing it from tax and PRSI, things that FG/Lab could only dream about doing 10 years ago.

FF/Lab government take over in 1992, significant in terms of the Northern Irish Peace Process, while also taking charge of a dreadful economy from the FF/PD government.
FG/Lab/DL enter government in 1994 (as Lab leaves the FF government, they can do this as FG/LAB/DL have been elected in 1992). FG/Lab/DL start Free Education and End their term in office with Irelands first Surplus, the issuing of the first telecoms contract (I know issues still surround that) and a major decrease in the Unemployment rate.
FF/PD take over the running of the country just as the Celtic Tiger begins. Re-introduction of 3rd level fees through an administration fee which continues to increase year on year.

Ah yeah, that old chestnut, Free fees for the middle and upper classes and just the status quo for the disadvantaged.

And the FF/PD government's have had 10 years to help the disadvantaged in Ireland. You cann't blame the FG/Lab government they have been out of government a long time since that was introduced.

Far better than Harney's (with FF support) introduction of the minimum wage and Cowen removing it from tax and PRSI, things that FG/Lab could only dream about doing 10 years ago.

I am sure they where working towards this hence the surplus after a 5 year government.

mickd

Elmo wrote:

FF/Lab government take over in 1992, significant in terms of the Northern Irish Peace Process, while also taking charge of a dreadful economy from the FF/PD government.
FG/Lab/DL enter government in 1994 (as Lab leaves the FF government, they can do this as FG/LAB/DL have been elected in 1992). FG/Lab/DL start Free Education and End their term in office with Irelands first Surplus, the issuing of the first telecoms contract (I know issues still surround that) and a major decrease in the Unemployment rate.
FF/PD take over the running of the country just as the Celtic Tiger begins. Re-introduction of 3rd level fees through an administration fee which continues to increase year on year.

I am sure they where working towards this hence the surplus after a 5 year government.

Niamh Breathnach abolishing third level fees was nothing more than a sop to the middle class.The majority of low income students would of have their fees paid as part of the local authority grant. FG/Lab/DL were carrying on economic policies from previous FF administrations. FF were responsible for social partnership and end to strikes, Britain could have learnt a thing from us in how to handle industrial relations. No economic entity was going to invest money in a country were strikes were happening everyday. In 1992 Albert Reyonlds returned from an EU summit with €7.6 billion in EU structural funds which kickstarted the celtic tiger. This is why Labour went into government with FF because time and time again FF demonstrated a 'can-do' attitude and achieved the biggest single injection of capital in the history of this state. With regard to Northern Ireland Dick Spring a politican that I have little time for made one telling observation "Until the leader of the Northern Unionists sits down with the leader of Fianna Fail, Northern Ireland will remain unsolved" Says it all really

oscarBravo

H&#250 wrote: »

They didn't get there by election.

No? Which members of that government weren't elected?

Elmo

With regard to Northern Ireland Dick Spring a politican that I have little time for made one telling observation "Until the leader of the Northern Unionists sits down with the leader of Fianna Fail, Northern Ireland will remain unsolved" Says it all really

I would consider Dick Spring as Foreign Affairs minister to have be very effective with the Northern Ireland Peace process I always felt that he held FF back while pushing FG forward in terms of Northern Ireland.

It's not like the PD's where ever very interested in NI

Perhaps now that Ian Pasiley has sat down with Bertie Ahern the problem has been solved.

The majority of low income students would of have their fees paid as part of the local authority grant.

Perhaps her reasoning was to let students who don't get the grant the ablity to go to college. College fees may have stopped them going to college.

But the means test for college grants needs to be changed but since then nothing has been done.

FG/Lab/DL were carrying on economic policies from previous FF administrations.

All administrations will follow previous administration policies. E.G. CnaP's Mother and Child Scheme was brought forward by FF and Noel Browne implement serveral beds already available through the FF administration. I know that this is going back in History.

No radical changes would occur should FG lead a government.

They didn't get there by election.

All elected. Just as Bertie was planning a grand coalition with the Greens, PDs and Indos so that if the Greens got cold feet half way through the 30th Dail the government could stay on.

Should the PDs leave government this time round FF can always approach Labour to continue in Government.

mickd

Elmo wrote:

I would consider Dick Spring as Foreign Affairs minister to have be very effective with the Northern Ireland Peace process I always felt that he held FF back while pushing FG forward in terms of Northern Ireland.

Indeed but I was referring to his whole political career. He was Tanaiste in 83-87 where the national debt was doubled spending money we didn't have. Spring and Barry Desmond were the curl pits.This is the man who wanted to nationalise the banks, yet has got nice an cushy with none executive directorships since leaving politics. Had a keen intellect but should never have been tanaiste. The inablilty of the first FG/Lab to function condemned people to a life of misery in eighties Ireland and was a disgrace for which the principle leaders Spring & Fitzgearld were never called to account

Perhaps now that Ian Pasiley has sat down with Bertie Ahern the problem has been solved.

Exactly

Perhaps her reasoning was to let students who don't get the grant the ability to go to college. College fees may have stopped them going to college.

But the means test for college grants needs to be changed but since then nothing has been done.

You have a point there.

All administrations will follow previous administration policies. E.G. CnaP's Mother and Child Scheme was brought forward by FF and Noel Browne implement serveral beds already available through the FF administration. I know that this is going back in History.

No radical changes would occur should FG lead a government.

Not so 1987 was a radical departure from previous adminstrations,albeit the world bank were calling the shots if FG/Lab are so good why didn't they introduce social partnership and fiscal rectitude which was the term used at the time? There is no way I would trust FG to protect our low corporation tax in the face of EU harmonisation. They are naive, you need the cute hoorism of FF if your batting for Ireland abroad.

Should the PDs leave government this time round FF can always approach Labour to continue in Government.

Why would they possibly do that, there is more chance of them joining FF

K-9

Elmo wrote:

FF/Lab government take over in 1992, significant in terms of the Northern Irish Peace Process, while also taking charge of a dreadful economy from the FF/PD government.

The Downings Street agreement was highly significant, unfortunately the Rainbows record was not quite as good.

The dreadful economy, surely you mean the one McSharry took over in 87 from FG/Lab. FF then went about reducing criminally high tax rates and a crippling national debt and reducing borrowing requirements. That probably helped the Rainbow in delivering that famous surplus we here so much about, ignoring income tax cuts (just 1%)

Elmo wrote:

FG/Lab/DL enter government in 1994 (as Lab leaves the FF government, they can do this as FG/LAB/DL have been elected in 1992).

So why didn't they go into Govt. with the Rainbow originally if that was the elected Govt.?

elmo wrote:

FG/Lab/DL start Free Education and End their term in office with Irelands first Surplus, the issuing of the first telecoms contract (I know issues still surround that) and a major decrease in the Unemployment rate.

Again, free education for the middle/upper classes. They did nothing for the disadvantaged.Inherited a health economy so of course they had the choice of delivering a surplus.

elmo wrote:

And the FF/PD government's have had 10 years to help the disadvantaged in Ireland. You cann't blame the FG/Lab government they have been out of government a long time since that was introduced.

Who introduced the minimum wage and a third of the workforce out of the tax and PRSI net. Does FG/Lab not recognise this helps the disadvantaged and are they going to go back on these measures?

elmo wrote:

I am sure they where working towards this hence the surplus after a 5 year government.

They're record on the surplus is of course good, there record on tax cuts isn't so they where a long way off these measures.

K-9

mickd wrote:

FG/Lab/DL were carrying on economic policies from previous FF administrations.

They forgot about the tax cuts though.

mickd wrote:

"Until the leader of the Northern Unionists sits down with the leader of Fianna Fail, Northern Ireland will remain unsolved" Says it all really

John Bruton's record on the North was poor.

elmo wrote:

It's not like the PD's where ever very interested in NI

Perhaps now that Ian Pasiley has sat down with Bertie Ahern the problem has been solved.

McDowell played an important part over IRA criminality.

elmo wrote:

All administrations will follow previous administration policies.

Not necessarily. Yes, Lynch and Haughey copied the first Govt. in Ireland to borrow, FG & Lab. FF with McSharry changed the idea that Ireland had to borrow and introduced cutbacks to reduce debt.

Roanmore

Seanies32 wrote:

So why didn't they go into Govt. with the Rainbow originally if that was the elected Govt.?

This alliance was just short after the election in 1992 but subsequent bi-elections allowed it to happen. I think this is called democracy. That Dail had 7 bi-elections.

johnlambe

I'm a Green Party member, but my reason for giving FG higher preference transfers than FF is honesty.

I think FG have lied to and misled the people less (except for the Nice campaign, where both were dishonest) and have been less corrupt.
For example, they promptly expelled Lowry when he was found to have evaded tax. FF were slow, at best (often resisting pressure to do anything about a corrupt member), to take any action against TDs who did worse, and they have a history of leaders being at least compromised or suspect.
Also, if they had any integrity, they would have expelled Charles Haughey (even if it was only symbolic, it would have sent an important message).

When Bertie gets away with compromising payments, what message does that send to their other public representatives?

With so many cases of corruption in FF, I believe it to be endemic.

K-9

Roanmore wrote:

This alliance was just short after the election in 1992 but subsequent bi-elections allowed it to happen. I think this is called democracy. That Dail had 7 bi-elections.

So forming Govts. by bye-elections is good for democracy? They are seriously biased and often just anti-Govt. Also depends on the constituency and who is the strongest party. Maybe we should adopt bye-elections into the general elections and have the first candidate elected and nothing else. Would very much suit FF and an overall majority, but for me, no thank you.

mickd

johnlambe wrote:

I'm a Green Party member, but my reason for giving FG higher preference transfers than FF is honesty.

I think FG have lied to and misled the people less (except for the Nice campaign, where both were dishonest) and have been less corrupt.
For example, they promptly expelled Lowry when he was found to have evaded tax. FF were slow, at best (often resisting pressure to do anything about a corrupt member), to take any action against TDs who did worse, and they have a history of leaders being at least compromised or suspect.
Also, if they had any integrity, they would have expelled Charles Haughey (even if it was only symbolic, it would have sent an important message).

When Bertie gets away with compromising payments, what message does that send to their other public representatives?

With so many cases of corruption in FF, I believe it to be endemic.

The last time we had elected FG/Lab or honesty, we had 40,000 leaving the country to get a job, moving statues and rock concerts for the unemployed. A level of hopelessness not seen since the 1950's where one was ashamed to come form a country that couldn't provide for its own all this facilitated by incompetence from the leaders of FG/Lab. In a ideal world on should strive for probity in public life but if your not providing for your people its not worth jack!

Unless you want Hugo Chavez or Castro for Taoiseach, enough of this silly Alice in Wonderland musings about honesty in politics

mickd

Seanies32 wrote:

John Bruton's record on the North was poor.

Indeed for the Taoiseach who called it the ****ing Peace Process, his high point was the Canary Wharf bomb when the SF/IRA had to break their ceasefire because like most of his predecessors in FG, Bruton was no leader only an accidental Taoiseach and no Tory PM was ever going to accommodate SF/IRA

CerebralCortex

mickd wrote:

The last time we had elected FG/Lab or honesty, we had 40,000 leaving the country to get a job, moving statues and rock concerts for the unemployed. A level of hopelessness not seen since the 1950's where one was ashamed to come form a country that couldn't provide for its own all this facilitated by incompetence from the leaders of FG/Lab. In a ideal world on should strive for probity in public life but if your not providing for your people its not worth jack!

Unless you want Hugo Chavez or Castro for Taoiseach, enough of this silly Alice in Wonderland musings about honesty in politics

Fianna Fail only provides for 41.6% of the country's people.

mickd

CerebralCortex wrote:

Fianna Fail only provides for 41.6% of the country's people.

I take it that the other 58.4% are starving to death at the roadside because the blight drove them from the land, that is your point is it? Because waving a stat like that doesn't make any other sense.

jjbrien

mickd wrote:

There is no way I would trust FG to protect our low corporation tax in the face of EU harmonisation. They are naive, you need the cute hoorism of FF if your batting for Ireland abroad.

Cough** What? FG/Labour goverment introduced the low corporation tax and will be the very ones defending it. FG has the most aount of MEP's in Ireland who are the very ones this very minuet defending our corportation taxes. They are members of the European Peoples party which controls the european parliement and are the real deal breakers of the EPP. So FG will be defending us tooth and nail.

jj
Our meps have no influence in corporation tax issues.
They might make a nimby speech about it and that is all.
They are a drop in the ocean of mep's who hate Irelands corpo tax.
It is a government that negotiates that.

It was easy enough got 10 years or more ago simply because it could still be argued back then (despite our already rising growth rates) that we were a backward economy and needed it.
Plus we hadnt had the boost from the low ecb rates of recent years either so we still looked fcuked.

While I don't doubt that an FG led regime would argue their best against any attacks on our low corporation tax,I'd have to look at Ahern being the longest serving and most experienced EU leader at this stage.
When Blair goes afaik,he'll be the last one standing from 10 years ago and that (regardless of what we think of him) puts him in a formidable negotiating position in Europe.

Elmo

So why didn't they go into Govt. with the Rainbow originally if that was the elected Govt.?

Fine Gael didn't want to go into government with Democratic Left in 1992, due to their links to Sinn Fein/Worker's Party etc.

It was as much the elected government as the FF/Lab government they made up the numbers.

McDowell played an important part over IRA criminality.

What about other forms of Criminality what about the UDA and UVF?
McDowell didn't even support the Good Friday Agreement.
McDowell is a Unionist.

Again, free education for the middle/upper classes. They did nothing for the disadvantaged.Inherited a health economy so of course they had the choice of delivering a surplus.

Again, the PD/FF governments of the last 10 years could have changed the Means test had they so wished. Noel Dempsey was the only MoE do actually think about doing something but was shot down by everyone including his own government.

How come Bertie Ahern wasn't able to do it just before he left that government?

Did FG/Lab inherite a bad economy back in 1982?

The last time we had elected FG/Lab or honesty, we had 40,000 leaving the country to get a job, moving statues and rock concerts for the unemployed. A level of hopelessness not seen since the 1950's where one was ashamed to come form a country that couldn't provide for its own all this facilitated by incompetence from the leaders of FG/Lab.

So Dishonesty good for the economy, honesty bad. (Oh Lowry wouldn't be an Honest Politican now would he?)
Moving Statues and Rock Concerts in 1997?
Incompetent leaders like
Martin Cullen
Dick Roche
Micheal Martin?

Did Lawor and Burke build this country? Should we praise them for what they did in power?

Had a keen intellect but should never have been tanaiste.

Ditto McDowell, intellect my arse.

While I don't doubt that an FG led regime would argue their best against any attacks on our low corporation tax,I'd have to look at Ahern being the longest serving and most experienced EU leader at this stage.
When Blair goes afaik,he'll be the last one standing from 10 years ago and that (regardless of what we think of him) puts him in a formidable negotiating position in Europe.

Europe: You still here?

Also while it may seem as though i am defending FG, I am not a supporter of FG or FF and neither get my vote.

Dr Galen

mickd wrote:

The last time we had elected FG/Lab or honesty, we had 40,000 leaving the country to get a job, moving statues and rock concerts for the unemployed. A level of hopelessness not seen since the 1950's where one was ashamed to come form a country that couldn't provide for its own all this facilitated by incompetence from the leaders of FG/Lab. In a ideal world on should strive for probity in public life but if your not providing for your people its not worth jack!

Unless you want Hugo Chavez or Castro for Taoiseach, enough of this silly Alice in Wonderland musings about honesty in politics

although I can see your overall point here, I think your being pretty selective and one sided at the same time. Remember CJ's "tighten our belts" mantra.......all the while he was lording it up with backhanders?

as much as I hate to admit it though, some of the FF, rough diamond type of politics is needed. In many situations politicians need to have a bit of brass neck and an eye for nearly a Del Boy Trotter kind of deal, look to Europe for examples, but this certainly doesn't equate to being on the take, or having clouds over your finances.

When I think of honesty in politics its the corporate donations and such that I want to see the back of along with the FF tent at the races along with a bit more straight-forwardness, and less of the new Labour spin machines that have unfortunately crossed over.