Stopping in neutral?

emeraldstar

is this ok? My driving instructor taught me to go all the way down the gears, 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd, but in a test situation when braking would just leaving it in neutral after 3rd be considered wrong?

Lorax

Ya shouldnt be going from 3rd to stop because itll involve coasting most of the time, unless your about to crash or something. But in normal conditions go down to 2nd. Its hard to know what your asking

J_R

Hi,

Here we go again:

From the IAM manual, "Pass your advanced Driving Test"

Coming to a Stop
The technique you use when coming to a complete halt after driving along in one of the higher gears often causes problems for candidates during the Advanced Driving Test. What you should do is best illustrated by imagining you are travelling along a suburban road in fifth gear at 40mph and traffic lights ahead turn red.

You slow down your car on the brakes alone, but there comes a point when the engine starts to labour. This is the moment when you de-clutch progressively, in order to prevent the engine straining the transmission and ultimately stalling. Normally it is a rule of advanced driving that you should not 'coast' with the clutch disengaged or the gearbox in neutral, but in this case you have to break this rule briefly by de-clutching so that you come to a halt without stalling the engine

They also say

Changing gears whils braking should be avoided because you reduce control of your car if you take one hand off the steering wheel

Back to original Question. Do you mean putting the gear lever in neutral. ??

If so, no, can only put the gear lever in neutral after car is stopped and handbrake applied.
If you mean not bothering going into 2nd, but stopping with gear lever in 3rd. Then NO PROBLEM , despite the old wives tales that you must stop in 2nd

Wossack

car should only be in neutral when the handbrake is on

you can come to a full and correct stop in any gear as long as you clutch correctly. Stopping in second all the time is a good rule of thumb though

Stark

Wossack wrote:

you can come to a full and correct stop in any gear as long as you clutch correctly. Stopping in second all the time is a good rule of thumb though

I find 3rd gear to be a good compromise. If you're doing "clutch. 2nd. clutch. stop" a lot while only spending a second or two in 2nd gear, then that's not good at all, despite what the Church of stopping in 2nd gear might tell you.

emeraldstar wrote:

My driving instructor taught me to go all the way down the gears, 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd

Get a new instructor. One who's received training and knows what's expected of you to pass the test, rather than one who relies on the same old wives tales that we can all pick up.

emeraldstar wrote:

but in a test situation when braking would just leaving it in neutral after 3rd be considered wrong?

Yes that would be wrong. Leave it in your current gear/change down a gear if you've a long approach but don't put the car into neutral until it's stopped and you've secured the car with the handbrake.

hermit

Wossack wrote:

you can come to a full and correct stop in any gear as long as you clutch correctly. Stopping in second all the time is a good rule of thumb though

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

bonkey

hermit wrote:

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

Wow.

Over here (Switzerland), I was taught to not change down from any gear when coming to a stop. That includes from 6th in the mini my instructor has.

Its more fuel efficient, and with a modern engine, you have to screw up enough that stalling would occur pretty-much no matter what gear you're in.

But don't let that effect what you guys do for the test in Ireland. Seriously...

Raoul

If you are behind a car, both stopped at traffic lights do you have to put the car in neutral. Opposed to being behind the first car and just sitting there with it in first without the handbrake on but the clutch in and hovering over the brake.

TwoShedsJackson

hermit wrote:

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

So why is 3rd fine, but 4th will result in an 'x'? Surely as long as you bring the car to a smooth controlled stop without the engine labouring, there's no real problem?

Wossack

Raoul wrote:

If you are behind a car, both stopped at traffic lights do you have to put the car in neutral. Opposed to being behind the first car and just sitting there with it in first without the handbrake on but the clutch in and hovering over the brake.

if you feel you're going to be stopped for 20 secs or more, handbrake up and into neutral

Jimoslimos

bonkey wrote:

Wow.

Over here (Switzerland), I was taught to not change down from any gear when coming to a stop. That includes from 6th in the mini my instructor has.

True, unless you're driving a very very old car (with poor brakes) you should brake in whatever gear you are in at the time, depress the clutch just before the engine cuts out. If you can perform an emergency stop without stalling the car you should be fine.

Wossack

Jimoslimos wrote:

True, unless you're driving a very very old car (with poor brakes) you should brake in whatever gear you are in at the time, depress the clutch just before the engine cuts out. If you can perform an emergency stop without stalling the car you should be fine.

I guess the problem in the test is due to you having to clutch in earlier when stopping in higher gears - resulting in a slight bit of coasting (I guess?)

/edit
and you might get 'failure to make progress' as you'll be in the wrong gear to immediately proceed should the way become clear again (have to do a 4->2, or 5->2 gearchange before moving off again)

Jimoslimos

Wossack wrote:

and you might get 'failure to make progress' as you'll be in the wrong gear to immediately proceed should the way become clear again (have to do a 4->2, or 5->2 gearchange before moving off again)

Block gear changes are perfectly acceptable, even skipping gears going up 2->4 is fine.

J_R

hermit wrote:

If you do this in 4th or 5th in your driving test and you will get one "x", keep doing it and you can put in for your re-test and rejoin the 12month waiting list.

Car should be stopped in 3rd gear or 2nd - but 3rd is certainly fine!

So, the Institute of Advance Motorist is wrong when they say it is OK to stop in 5th gear ?? See my first post.

Also all the test examiners are wrong when they do not mark my pupils for not changing down. I have them stop in whatever gear they happen to be in. Let it be 3rd, 4th, 5th or even 6th gear. - No Marks -

Brakes on a modern car are quite capable of stopping a car without any help from the engine. About 2 generations ago was a different story when to avoid the brakes over heating was necessary to have the engine assist in slowing/stopping a car. Things have moved on.

Motto now is:- Brakes to slow Gears to go

bonkey

J_R wrote:

Motto now is:- Brakes to slow Gears to go

You'd swear they'd been designed for that

unkel

J_R is spot on and so are several others here. That changing down the gear stuff is old skool. Very old skool. I was tought how to drive (in another country) well over 20 years ago and even back then, one did not need to change down the gears when approaching a red light in the distance for example

LOL at bonkey

Wishbone Ash

The old wives tale about stopping in 2nd originated when most ordinary cars were 3 or 4 speed only and therefore had completely different ratios.

J_R wrote:

Motto now is:- Brakes to slow Gears to go

Yup, anyone who has ever driven an articulated truck will verify that. Try slowing down using the gears and it can jackknife! :eek:

jackofalltrades

even skipping gears going up 2->4 is fine.

It's fine if you're out to shorten the life of your engine/gearbox/clutch.
And you probably wouldn't be doing yourself any favours in a driving test.

So, the Institute of Advance Motorist is wrong when they say it is OK to stop in 5th gear ?? See my first post.

The IAM's saying that by doing the actions that they describe that you will be coasting, albeit only briefly, which could leave you open to getting marks against you in the driving test.

I usually go down through the gears when stopping and then clutch in, in 2nd or possibly 3rd, never really do it in any higher gear than that. Otherwise if the traffics starts moving you're stuck in a high gear and you have to go about selecting a gear, matching the engine speed and then clutch out without lurching or stalling the car. Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

Stark

jackofalltrades wrote:

The IAM's saying that by doing the actions that they describe that you will be coasting, albeit only briefly, which could leave you open to getting marks against you in the driving test.

You're far more likely to pick up a coasting fault if you try downshifting and you don't leave yourself enough time to lift your foot fully off the clutch before pressing it down again to stop.

jackofalltrades wrote:

I usually go down through the gears when stopping and then clutch in, in 2nd or possibly 3rd, never really do it in any higher gear than that. Otherwise if the traffics starts moving you're stuck in a high gear and you have to go about selecting a gear, matching the engine speed and then clutch out without lurching or stalling the car. Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

That's a matter of personal preference. Personally I find it's very obvious if there's going to be any chance of keeping going without stopping and in all other cases, stopping in gear is the easiest thing to do. In any case, if you find yourself able to keep going, you can change straight from 4th to 2nd without going through 3rd.

Wishbone Ash

jackofalltrades wrote:

you have to go about selecting a gear, matching the engine speed and then clutch out without lurching or stalling the car. Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

But in a car it's relatively easy to select which ever gear you require with the "gate" system. In a motorcycle, the rider may be required to stop suddenly in 6th and then have to click down (all gears in line) through 5 gears to get first again and not make it too obvious to the tester.

bonkey

jackofalltrades wrote:

It's fine if you're out to shorten the life of your engine/gearbox/clutch.

Is this still true?

With the gearing ratios and rpm on a modern car, I don't see the problem.
Mostly, when gearing up in a situation where I could go directly from 2nd to 4th, if I use 3rd I'll be in gear for only a second or so.

Is it really saving that much stress on the gear-train?

Our previous car was a 205 cabriolet....about 20 years old. Completely different beast, and gear-jumping was definitely a bad idea. Our mechanic even told us not to do it, cautioning that while it was perfectly ok in anything reasonably modern, the gear system in the 205 was just too old to handle it.

And you probably wouldn't be doing yourself any favours in a driving test.

Again a difference with Switzerland and Ireland. I was taught and encouraged to do it. Hmm...maybe the instructors are in league with the garages Damned money-making Swiss

Which I could imagine would be quiet tricky for a learner driver.

With respect, anything can be tricky for a learner. The whole point of the exam is to show that you can now manage the tricky aspects of driving to the point where you are not a danger to yourself nor anyone else.

If you do something wrong in the exam, you absolutely deserve to be marked down for it. But that doesn't mean at all that you should be marked down for doing it right, if its considered acceptable (or even prefereable) driving practice.

Wishbone Ash

bonkey wrote:

With the gearing ratios and rpm on a modern car, I don't see the problem.
Mostly, when gearing up in a situation where I could go directly from 2nd to 4th, if I use 3rd I'll be in gear for only a second or so

In many heavy commercial vehicles , the gears are skipped anyway by the automatic system. Some automatic buses will take off in 3rd and then go to 5th, then 7th and in sequence after that (8th,9th 10th 11th etc.).

In the articulated truck test, they expect you to select 3rd gear when moving off even though most truck handbooks insist that the driver selects 1st gear.

jackofalltrades

stark wrote:

if you find yourself able to keep going, you can change straight from 4th to 2nd without going through 3rd.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

But in a car it's relatively easy to select which ever gear you require with the "gate" system.

Its not the the actual selection of the gear that I see as tricky more so matching the engine speed to the gearbox speed. I guess this worries me more since I started off on motorbikes and being in the wrong gear or de-clutching in the wrong gear whilst gearing down could lead to serious balance/safety issues.

bonkey wrote:

Is it really saving that much stress on the gear-train?

They're always saying that newer cars are built a lot tougher and are able to take more abuse, but the last car I had was a 10 year old 106 and the clutch was only starting to go at around 85k miles(and that was after 3 people learning to drive in it, where as the previous owner of my current Focus managed to destroy the clutch in 18k miles.

Gear skipping, going up mightn't cause you too many problems in the short-term but it could lead to having to replace a clutch/gearbox a few thousand miles earlier than if it had been driven using all the gears.

In the articulated truck test, they expect you to select 3rd gear when moving off even though most truck handbooks insist that the driver selects 1st gear.

Did a lesson in a rigid once, the instructor told me to move away in 2nd, it still felt like a really low ratio 1st gear.

Stark

jackofalltrades wrote:

Its not the the actual selection of the gear that I see as tricky more so matching the engine speed to the gearbox speed.

A skill that has to be learnt regardless. If it was something to shy away from because it's "hard for poor inexperienced driver"(who's meant to be competent enough to pass his/her driving test) then we'd all be driving automatics.

jackofalltrades wrote:

I guess this worries me more since I started off on motorbikes and being in the wrong gear or de-clutching in the wrong gear whilst gearing down could lead to serious balance/safety issues.

My dad did his car test 20+ years ago after first learning to drive on motorcycles. One of the first things the instructor told him with regards to his moving through the gears sequentially in religious fashion was "You're not driving a motorcycle anymore".

If "it might lead to serious balance issues" is the best argument against stopping in gears other than 2nd, no wonder no advanced instructors and very few pre-test instructors advise stopping only in 2nd.

jackofalltrades wrote:

They're always saying that newer cars are built a lot tougher and are able to take more abuse, but the last car I had was a 10 year old 106 and the clutch was only starting to go at around 85k miles(and that was after 3 people learning to drive in it, where as the previous owner of my current Focus managed to destroy the clutch in 18k miles.

I find it unlikely that he destroyed his clutch through block gear changing/stopping in gear. It's more likely he did a lot of riding the clutch on hills and the like.

MrPudding

If the car comes to a complete stop the handbrake must be applied.

As for gears, move through the gears or change to the one you want directly. Each to their own.

MrP

Stark

MrPudding wrote:

If the car comes to a complete stop the handbrake must be applied.

Another "axiom" that some people get taught, but isn't true for all situations. You don't need to use the handbrake in all situations, only some situations such as stopping at traffic lights. For example, if you come to a halt at a stop sign, you don't need to use the handbrake, unless traffic on the major road is heavy and you're going to be there a while. Same thing if you're waiting to get onto a roundabout.

MrPudding

Stark wrote:

Another "axiom" that some people get taught, but isn't true for all situations. You don't need to use the handbrake in all situations, only some situations such as stopping at traffic lights. For example, if you come to a halt at a stop sign, you don't need to use the handbrake, unless traffic on the major road is heavy and you're going to be there a while. Same thing if you're waiting to get onto a roundabout.

As you say, it is what I was taught. I was told there were no exceptions. To this day I still apply the hand brake if I come to a stop.

With regards to slowing using gears. In IAM they like you to use the brakes as little as possible. It isn't a big deal if you do use them you they prefer you not to. After reading this thread yesterday I had a look at my roadcraft book as I couldn't remember exactly what it said on the subject.

As far as roadcraft is concerned breaking using the engine should only be done in adverse weather condidtions. Quite at odds with IAM which is suppose d to be all about the roadcraft.

MrP

wheresthebeef

This thread is the most confusing one i have ever read regarding driving and braking. Surely the gears are sequential for a reason. When taking off you work up from first to fifth etc.... and when slowing down you go down from fifth to second again. Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop? It feels more controlled and involves no coasting. And surely you'll slow down quicker if your using brakes and engine to assist you. I've rarely stopped in third, but know that i can if i need to. I would never attempt to stop in fourth or fifth. It just seems silly because you have to clutch so much earlier to avoid the engine shuddering.
I can't make sense of the conflicting opinions here so i am going to ask a question. Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

Jimoslimos

wheresthebeef wrote:

This thread is the most confusing one i have ever read regarding driving and braking.

Agreed:D

wheresthebeef wrote:

Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop?

Well more time with both hands on the steeing wheel for one.

wheresthebeef wrote:

And surely you'll slow down quicker if your using brakes and engine to assist you.

No, you'll slow down quicker if you just put your foot on the brake pedal.

wheresthebeef wrote:

It just seems silly because you have to clutch so much earlier to avoid the engine shuddering.

You shouldn't have to clutch that much earlier, unless you're braking much too soon. Its just a matter of practice.

wheresthebeef wrote:

Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

Given the conflicting evidence/opinions here I wouldn't dream of advising either way. Find yourself a reputable instructor with recent experience and ask them I suppose

Stark

wheresthebeef wrote:

Surely the gears are sequential for a reason.

They're not sequential. It's a car, not a motorbike. You can move from any gear to any other gear assuming the new gear has the correct ratio for the speed you're doing and the acceleration you want.

wheresthebeef wrote:

Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop? It feels more controlled and involves no coasting.

You don't have to coast when stopping in gear. Remember, if you're changing through the gears one by one, you have to put the clutch down with every gear change, so you're significantly increasing the time that the clutch pedal is to the floor when you're stopping.

wheresthebeef wrote:

Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

Fine for the state driving test. Not okay if you do an advanced driving test.

bonkey

wheresthebeef wrote:

Surely the gears are sequential for a reason.

Yes. Its to do with transferring power from the engine to the wheels. You don't need that power when you're braking.

and when slowing down you go down from fifth to second again.

Why?

If you cease slowing and need to accelerate again, then sure, you (may) need to change gears at that point.

Why wouldn't you want to drop gears when your preparing to stop?

The correct question is why would you want to do so?

It feels more controlled and involves no coasting.

Changing through gears requires completely declutching multiple times whilst travelling at speed, as well as requiring you to drive one-handed. You have less control, in reality, no matter how it feels.

As for coasting...a modern engine will not stall if you gradually declutch as your speed decreases. How much coasting are you talking about?

I've rarely stopped in third, but know that i can if i need to. I would never attempt to stop in fourth or fifth. It just seems silly because you have to clutch so much earlier to avoid the engine shuddering.

I know people who can't parallel park easily and would rather drive around for extended periods of time looking for an alternative rather than having to try it.

If theysay parallel parking silly because they can't see the point in it, nor can they manage it easily, do they have a point?

Is what I am doing ok for the purposes of a driving test?

I'd ask a qualified driving instructor.

From what's been said here, it would seem that either is fine as long as you do it right, but I'd still ask a qualified driving instructor.