UEFA to reprimand XXXXXXXXX fans

Guy:Incognito

ciaran76 wrote:

UEFA (and the city officals where ever the final is being held) out of all the finals they manage to host they should know better then to let fans get within 2 miles of the ground without a ticket.

If there was proper security and/or turnstiles it wouldnt matter if there was 10,000 ticketless fans standing right outside the gates.

ciaran76

Stekelly wrote:

If there was proper security and/or turnstiles it wouldnt matter if there was 10,000 ticketless fans standing right outside the gates.

Yes but having 10,000 ticketless fans standing around outside a stadium to me is not good at all. In general most fans will behave well but as you know once people get into groups a gang mentality can kick in with some people and trouble can break loose esp. with drink involved.

mike65

Liverpool 1 - 0 UEFA Gaillard OG

Mike.

jesus_thats_gre

ciaran76 wrote:

Yes but having 10,000 ticketless fans standing around outside a stadium to me is not good at all. In general most fans will behave well but as you know once people get into groups a gang mentality can kick in with some people and trouble can break loose esp. with drink involved.

The fans were perfectly entitled to travel to the city whether they had tickets or not. The authorities knew thousands of fans would be traveling and this is why they erected the large screens around Athens. This happens for every large football event whether it be the CL final or the World Cup. Sure thousands of Irish fans travel to World Cups without any hope of getting into a the stadium.

I posted a link to someones account of the final day in the other thread. It basically said that the subway between the stadium was free all day and anyone was able to travel out the stadium at any stage throughout the day. As you know, there was also persistant rumours for the weeks leading up to the final that Milan were returning a large number of tickets. This rumours was debunked many times but kept coming back up. Apparently, on the day of the final there was a rumour that a large number of tickets was going to go on sale from the ticket office.

Throughout the day, fans were pestering employees at the ticket office as when these tickets were going to be available for sale. The authorities a the stadium had also heard the rumour and were telling fans that they did not know whether the rumour was true and were awaiting UEFA to get back to them. Throughout the whole day, the staff at the stadium were unable to get hold of anyone in UEFA who could provide a conclusive answer as to whether the rumour was true.

Combine the craic with the tickets and the free subway throughtout the day and you have a situation like happened on the night of the final, i.e. thousands of fans being at the stadium who would not other have been there. That addresses why the fans were there.

Then throw in the fact that thousands of fans were able to get into the stadium with fake tickets while people with valid tickets were left standing outside. Then add the fact that there was no turnstyles in the stadium and throw rushing the gates, fans with no tickets were able to get into the stadium..

All the above conbined with desperate fans, alot of who were probably very drunk, was always going to lead to a bad situation. Saying there are quite a few lessons to be learned is an understatement and UEFA and the organisers should hold there hands up and admit that.

johnnyboy4711

1 Liverpool fans get into CL final with bogus tickets
2 Liverpool fans that have legit tickets cannot get in
3 problem lies with UEFA ticketing the event and liverpool fans that will jump over other Liverpool fans to get to see their team!
next year!
john

ciaran76

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

The fans were perfectly entitled to travel to the city whether they had tickets or not. The authorities knew thousands of fans would be traveling and this is why they erected the large screens around Athens. This happens for every large football event whether it be the CL final or the World Cup. Sure thousands of Irish fans travel to World Cups without any hope of getting into a the stadium.

I am sure no one has problems with 1000's of fans turning up in a city. I have not said they should not be allowed into the city !

The problem I would have would be having thousands of fans hanging around the stadium with no tickets.That all nothing more nothing less.

redspider

So, Uefa do NOT have any proof that Liverpool are the worst fans in Europe, and Gaillard is once again shown up to be incompetent. How he was allowed to communicate this is another story, but clearly politicking on the part of Uefa in the public relations battle. Of course, it went around the world and people who may not know any different will take the headlines as fact. I hope it doesnt encourage 'firms'/ultra's of other clubs to take it as a challenge, whether to cause more trouble or to 'take on' Liverpool fans.

It seems to me that Uefa have created a report collating incidents that Liverpool fans have been involved in as material to discuss at the Uefa/English meeting. Its true, Liverpool fans are not squeky clean 100% of them all the time. It is not the Mother Teresa Livepool Football Club with a following of nuns. However, anecdotally, Liverpool fans, whilst not squeaky clean, have a fairly good reputation by and large.

There were problems on the night. That Guardian article is sensationalist and is not accurate. It was not a case of 1000's of Liverpool fans storming the gates and overwhelming and forcing their way in. Indeed, their ways in were facilitated by the lack of basic town-hall bingo entrance systems, namely taking the stub of a valid ticket and not alowing people out, or if they do leave they leave the stadium for the night. This simple yet effective system meant that fans came into the stadium, with INTACT tickets, rang their mates, collected about 10 of them or whatever, left the stadium, gave them to their friends/colleagues (or even sold them) and so it went on.

What would you do IF you got a call from a friend of yours in the stadium and said he had a ticket for you? Would you go or not?

The fault lies with the authorities (Uefa and probably the local ones too).

Stekelly wrote:

Anyone know what the stadium in Moscow is like for next years final? Have they turnstiles at least?

If you try to re-enter you will be nuked ! - or sent to the gulag.

Redspider

jesus_thats_gre

ciaran76 wrote:

I am sure no one has problems with 1000's of fans turning up in a city. I have not said they should not be allowed into the city !

The problem I would have would be having thousands of fans hanging around the stadium with no tickets.That all nothing more nothing less.

And I explained why there was 1000's of fans around the stadium. Considering you know why, you may have the same problem with it but may think of pointing the finger at someone else.

ciaran76

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

And I explained why there was 1000's of fans around the stadium. Considering you know why, you may have the same problem with it but may think of pointing the finger at someone else.

Yes and as I said in my 1st post that if UEFA and city officals(or whoever is responsible for hosting) should have stopped fans getting that close to the stadium without a ticket.

jesus_thats_gre

Apologies, should have said that people may point their finger of blame at someone else other than LFC.

jesus_thats_gre

Apologies, should have said that people may point their finger of blame at someone else other than LFC.

Jazzy

1st UEFA Official - "sh1t! we buggered that final up a bit didnt we"
2nd UEFA Official - "well in fairness, we weren't that prepared for what was going to happen and we ignored the warnings"
1st UEFA Official - "hmm, you may be right on that, but we dont want to seem to be at fault"
2nd UEFA Official - "Well Ive been thinking, people believe statistics.. so what if we were just to invent some sort of statistic that will give the appearance of being true without really anyway to back up our findings.. but the findings will be so controversial anyway that it wont really matter whether its true or not"
1st UEFA Official - "Ingenius, its almost like we are bypassing any blame entirely and if we just shut up and be quiet about it after we release the report then it will eventually drift away and in a years time it wont be our report that will be remembered, it will be all those Liverpool fans that we have tarred and feathered."

growler

you have to feel sorry for the poor pool fans, thousands of ticketless fans turn up on the day, cause trouble all over athens, storm the gates regardless of the safety of their fellow supporters incl. women and kids and then get on their high horse when someone tells the world than they won't be winning any popularity contests in the world of football. shock.

Soooo unfair, it's UEFA's fault that the scousers stormed the entrances. UEFA couldn't win of course , if the police had acted as they should have and battered these scumbags (who were lucky not to create another heysel )then no doubt it would have been another sad story of liverpool being the victims (yet again). Liverpool, the club and its fans don't seem able to accept that you have a lot of scumbags who follow the team, cause trouble wherever they go and are another heysel waiting to happen as long as they are allowed get away with it.

Mr Alan

It was partly uefas fault, and that is not even up for discussion, its just fact.

Part uefas fault, part liverpools fault.

The tone of your post is designed to do nothing but wind up people on this board. unfortunately, as much as i wish i could, i cant ignore people who say stupid things like your above post.

All liverpool fans i've met or talked to since athens accept that actions of a very small minority of our fans were unacceptable. your post blows wat happened in athens WWWWAAAAAYYYYY out of proportion, and contains things that are just untrue also. but as i said that doesnt suprise me, cause i'm pretty sure the message was just meant to annoy people.

The team you support makes it quite difficult to think of your post as anything other than sour grapes. even with your little plastic flags roman bought for ya, ya couldnt make it to the final boo hoo hoo.
Personally, I'm delighted, goes to show ya not everything in the world can be bought - passion cannot be bought. Sometimes it can become too much or lead people to do stupid things (athens) but most of the time it just leads to liverpool fans being praised by all they come across throughout europe.

best of luck getting to moscow, i'm sure roman will be pulling all the strings he can to get ye there - home town boy and all that.

BaZmO*

What's the official number of fans that didn't get into the ground with legitimate tickets?

Jazzy

growler wrote:

you have to feel sorry for the poor pool fans, thousands of ticketless fans turn up on the day, cause trouble all over athens, storm the gates regardless of the safety of their fellow supporters incl. women and kids and then get on their high horse when someone tells the world than they won't be winning any popularity contests in the world of football. shock.

Soooo unfair, it's UEFA's fault that the scousers stormed the entrances. UEFA couldn't win of course , if the police had acted as they should have and battered these scumbags (who were lucky not to create another heysel )then no doubt it would have been another sad story of liverpool being the victims (yet again). Liverpool, the club and its fans don't seem able to accept that you have a lot of scumbags who follow the team, cause trouble wherever they go and are another heysel waiting to happen as long as they are allowed get away with it.

my god. i never saw it like that.
i feel like my face has been smacked by a mackerel of facts. its a sheer news injection your post thats what it is. That saucy information powder has been cooked and shot up with a giant news syringe right into my gulliver.


yes... thats it, mention Heysel twice and your bound to look right and then people will get riled up. mission successful. Top Gun. Boom boom.

you now look deadly.... its not like your regurgitating whatever ill-informed snippets of news happen to flow your way. no way, not you... you know too much already

s8n

growler wrote:

you have to feel sorry for the poor pool fans, thousands of ticketless fans turn up on the day, cause trouble all over athens, storm the gates regardless of the safety of their fellow supporters incl. women and kids and then get on their high horse when someone tells the world than they won't be winning any popularity contests in the world of football. shock.

Soooo unfair, it's UEFA's fault that the scousers stormed the entrances. UEFA couldn't win of course , if the police had acted as they should have and battered these scumbags (who were lucky not to create another heysel )then no doubt it would have been another sad story of liverpool being the victims (yet again). Liverpool, the club and its fans don't seem able to accept that you have a lot of scumbags who follow the team, cause trouble wherever they go and are another heysel waiting to happen as long as they are allowed get away with it.

Well Said

RE*AC*TOR

Jazzy wrote:

my god. i never saw it like that.
i feel like my face has been smacked by a mackerel of facts. its a sheer news injection your post thats what it is. That saucy information powder has been cooked and shot up with a giant news syringe right into my gulliver.


yes... thats it, mention Heysel twice and your bound to look right and then people will get riled up. mission successful. Top Gun. Boom boom.

you now look deadly.... its not like your regurgitating whatever ill-informed snippets of news happen to flow your way. no way, not you... you know too much already

reply of the year.

cournioni

BaZmO* wrote:

What's the official number of fans that didn't get into the ground with legitimate tickets?

You expect UEFA to come up with an official figure?! They will probably just make that up aswell... There is no doubt that Liverpool have to take some responsibility for what happened, but it was up to UEFA to organise things better to make sure that fans wouldn't get the chance to cause a problem.

Again, two sides are to blame because I don't think 2000 or so Liverpool fans should get off scott free with storming the stadium, but it could have been avoided if UEFA were as professional as they like to think they are.

redspider

www.rte.ie/sport/2007/0605/liverpool.html

Platini backtracks on Liverpool criticism
Tuesday, 5 June 2007 16:13
Liverpool fans are not the worst behaved in Europe, according to UEFA president Michel Platini.

Platini, contradicting statements attributed to UEFA officials last week, said: 'No they are not, it's official, they are not the worst behaved in Europe.'

Platini was speaking after a meeting with British sports minister Richard Caborn during which he handed over a report into security problems at last month's Champions League final between Liverpool and AC Milan.

UEFA had blamed Liverpool fans for causing the majority of the problems before the match, alleging that hundreds of English fans who had no tickets or forged tickets forced their way into the Olympic Stadium in Athens.

An official said Liverpool fans had been involved in 25 incidents at away matches in the last four years making them the worst behaved among followers of clubs in European competition.

So, Platini backtacks officially and rightly so. he needs though to control his loose cannons such as Gaillard. Uefa really need to get their act together. I think that Platini can do a better job than Johansson, but only time will tell. At the moment, Uefa still have a lot of problems.

BaZmO* wrote:

What's the official number of fans that didn't get into the ground with legitimate tickets?

I dont know if an official estimate has been made, because that's all it could be. But numbers such as 5,000 have been used.


Following on from my previous post, I mentioned the 'revolving reuse' ticket 'scam' that was being used. Just to re-iterate that this is an officials problem.

As to the others that got in, yes, there were fans that 'stormed past the gates' and past officials, but this number wasnt that high, and would have numbered in 100's. There was never a case of a Heysel situation happening, although a Hillsboro type of situation with too many fans in a section/end was avoided by refusing legitimate ticket holders access.

It seems that forgeries were also sold and used, but this is also a fault of the authorities.

Overall, whilst Liverpool fans did exploit the situation, I dont think there would be any set of fans that wouldnt have done the same thing. The fault for me, lies with the authorities.

I think Uefa should compensate all those ticket holders that didnt get in. Of course, one big problem Uefa have is that many of those that did get in still have a whole ticket and could easily claim money back as well. Uefa know this and are in a ticky corner.

Another point to note is that the trouble in downtown Athens was minor and was at times even between Liverpool fans. There were a lot of Greek Liverpool fans and other Liverpool fans. And there seemed to be a lack of police in the area or other crowd control. But it was no worse than many's a night in Newcastle city centre.

One final thing is that seemingly 800 Liverpool fans found their way into the AC Milan end/area. There was no trouble between those fans.

Redspider

SCULLY

millersangel wrote:

Sometimes it can become too much or lead people to do stupid things (athens) but most of the time it just leads to liverpool fans being praised by all they come across throughout europe.

and sometimes it can lead to all english clubs being banned for a few years....

redspider

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I don't think 2000 or so Liverpool fans should get off scott free with storming the stadium.

I dont think there are any reliable reports or observations which suggest anything like that happened - as in 1000's storming the stadium and forcing their way in. Also, storming is not the correct way to describe what happened.

Its true that gate and entrance control was poor and lax lax at many (all?) entrances, and Liverpool fans who were there on spec (and got calls from mates who had already bunked in) then bunked in and did 'runners' or whatever you want to call them. There is evidence that some gates were overwhelmed for a time and 10's or indeed 100's ran in. But no evidence of a mass storming.

I would not be surprised if reliable estimates put the number of those that entered 'illegally' (remember many thought they had bought legitimate tickets) would number 5,000 thus denying 5,000 who had legitimate tickets and were denied access by the police, but that is just an estimate. Perhaps Uefa (or indeed Liverpool) will come up with an offical estimate at some point. 5,000, if true, out of an enclosure of 17-20,000 is a large percentage.

Redspider

ciaran76

I think this is a good article..

(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article1890310.ece?openComment=true)

A Royal Opera House production of IntoThe Woods opens next week. Short run, small theatre, the Nessun Dorma set were straight in. You can’t get tickets for love nor money now, it seems so unfair. I haven’t missed a Sondheim show in town for years, so there is only one thing for it: turn up anyway and try to score a ticket on the black market.
If that does not work, forge one, steal one, blag my way in and sit in a stranger’s seat. Or if all else fails, charge the entrance to the stalls. If the mission ends horribly, in violence, injury or distress, I will blame the Royal Opera for staging it at the Linbury Studio Theatre, not the larger capacity Main House.

And, no, I do not seek to compare my enthusiasm for the great writer of the American stage with the intense devotion of a Liverpool supporter left high and dry for a ticket in Athens, but in any debate around the chaos at the Champions League final last month and its subsequent fallout, it is important to acknowledge that in football we accept as stock behaviour that which would not be deemed socially appropriate in any other walk of life.

If you cannot get a ticket for the opening of Pirates of the Caribbean three at the Odeon, you don’t go. Simple as that. Unless you are looking to pay four times face value from a tout, the same applies to George Michael at Wembley, or the Chelsea Flower Show, or the men’s final at Wimbledon. Only in the increasingly bizarre world of the big match do we find nothing unusual in 20,000 people arriving with tickets and the same number arriving without but still expecting to get in, with nothing to do but drink and mill around and fume at their predicament until a combination of frustration, anger and rowdiness culminates in the scenes that we saw outside the Olympic Stadium in Athens.

“My heart sank as I stood and watched what was happening. After what happened in Sheffield in 1989 I couldn’t believe Liverpool fans, of all people, could do such dangerous things. I honestly feared people were going to get crushed and we were going to have another Hillsborough. It was disgusting. The people who stormed into the stadium are the scum of the earth. They put at risk hundreds of lives and should be ashamed of themselves. The vast majority of Liverpool fans are impeccably behaved, but there has always been a hard core of mindless thugs that ruin it for the rest. It hurts me to say this, but I won’t be following Liverpool on their travels in future.”

The last line gives it away, but that was not another preemptive rant from William Gaillard, Uefa’s loose-cannon spokesman. These are the words of Phil Hammond, who lost his son Philip at Hillsborough and is chairman of the Hillsborough Family Support Group. When such a man is moved to speak out, it is time to listen.

Gaillard’s love of the limelight and his fondness for the incendiary quote has spoilt it for everybody. Rather than opening a debate about official and personal responsibility, which would have been healthy and could have prevented a tragedy occurring down the line, it has turned the issues into a game of claim and counterclaim. Michel Platini, the Uefa president, was backtracking hastily yesterday, contradicting Gaillard’s smears, and the possibility of a working party to explore suitable final venues is positive, but the accusations that followed the match have trod a predictable path, with two sides pointing fingers and shouting: “You started it.”

Maybe Uefa’s aggressive stance was the product of a general weariness that whenever there is an incident involving English fans in Europe, the news channels, websites and phone-ins overflow with tales of police brutality, Ultra provocation and official incompetence. Some of the accusations have credibility, but less common are accounts that concede that the behaviour of certain Englishmen abroad (and while it is a minority, it is not always a small one) is confrontational.

That is why voices such as Hammond’s and Tony Evans, a Liverpool supporter, author and Deputy Football Editor of The Times, are so important. The day after the final, Evans, while rightly condemning Uefa’s organisation, also conceded that some Liverpool fans regard entering the ground without payment as a badge of honour. The mythology of the wise-cracking scally indulges this and some writers fall for it, but Evans identified this culture as creating an unpleasant atmosphere and hostile scenes inside and outside away grounds.

He cited incidents at Stamford Bridge two years ago and in Eindhoven last season. No doubt these were among reports handed to Richard Caborn, the Sports Minister, by Uefa yesterday. Yet Evans, whose Red credentials are impeccable, can say these things; others cannot. Too often, when an attempt is made to address why Liverpool supporters contrive to be at once England’s most loved (the vibrancy of Anfield on European nights) and its most hated (the attack on the ambulance taking Alan Smith, the Manchester United striker, to hospital after breaking a leg at Anfield) is taken as a slap in the face to the city as a whole. It is not. No one believes that the ambulance chasers were representative of all Liverpool fans, but they were representative of some. The club cannot lay claim to the good but not the bad.

Take the case of Michael Shields, a Liverpool fan imprisoned for the attempted murder of Martin Georgiev, a Bulgarian bartender, while on his way back from the 2005 Champions League final in Istanbul.

Many believe that the Bulgarian authorities got the wrong man, not least because two days after Shields’s conviction on July 26, 2005, Graham Sankey, another Liverpool supporter, confessed to the assault in writing (although his solicitors retracted this claim in March 2006).

The Bulgarian courts insist that Shields is guilty and refuse to accept any evidence from Sankey that is not given in Bulgaria, or by video link. Yet while the Free Michael pressure group has a strong presence inside Anfield, there is no parallel campaign to extradite Sankey, meaning that we have lost sight of the one certain victim here: the barman, Georgiev.

This fits the desire to portray English fans as the victims, forever at the mercy of unscrupulous foreign justice systems and brutal, fascistic policemen. We focus on the innocent casualties of the baton charge — and there have been too many this season — but never ask why such viciousness is deemed necessary.

The issue is wider than Liverpool versus Europe and is better expressed in these constant reminders that the majority of English supporters travel trouble-free. We now want credit for what we are supposed to do; behaviour that should in any civilised country be taken for granted. “We don’t cause any trouble . . .” You’re not meant to cause trouble. “We just want to have a laugh . . .” We all want to have a laugh. “I’ve never been arrested at football . . .” You’re not meant to get arrested at football.

Even Hammond, whose emotions in Athens must have been horribly raw, still added the coda about the impeccable behaviour of most Liverpool fans to his condemnation of the few. We are constantly tiptoeing around the fragile sensibilities of the English football supporter, this shrinking violet so hasty to indignant tears if his integrity is questioned.

It is time to revisit our definition of good behaviour. Basically, people who charge barriers are bad. People who don’t are not good, they are just people, behaving normally. We do not give out praise to the millions of citizens who go about their daily lives without committing a crime. At football, why do we crave recognition for common sense?

The reason we have to address these issues is that only then can we take on Uefa without fear of another descent into worthless tit-for-tat. The bottom line is that Uefa is a lousy tournament manager, as inept as any governing body in world sport. This is dangerous and must change. The European Championship in Portugal in 2004 made the 1998 African Cup of Nations in Burkina Faso look almost Teutonic in its efficiency.

Uefa is so obsessed with its corporate partners that it has taken to holding the Champions League final at inappropriate, generic venues that can be plastered, like a blank canvas, with its brands. For Uefa, the problem with a final at Old Trafford is that evidence of Manchester United, and their commercial partners, is everywhere. Better to send the match to a state-run venue with no club allegiance, even if the stadium is unsuited to the event.

If Liverpool supporters have emerged with reputations scarred from Athens, they deserved medals for venturing without incident to the Atatörk Stadium in Istanbul, an isolated location at odds with the travel needs of a large crowd. The man who put it there should have been made to walk home. Another Uefa favourite, the Stade de France in Paris, can be a nightmare of tight connections and unhelpful cab drivers. Next year’s venue, Moscow, promises to set records for outrageous hotel and flight prices, if the rates for England’s visit there in October are anything to go by.

Yet, despite this, a bottom-line fact remains. With greater social responsibility, the final in Athens would have been workable. Those with tickets would have got in, those without would have watched the match elsewhere. And, yes, it would have been unfair on some, but there would be a far better chance of positive action if Uefa was not able to deflect criticism with a counteracting list of grievances against Liverpool fans.

The allocation of tickets to both clubs was a joke, but there was only trouble at one end. So while it is Uefa’s fault, it is ours, too. And we won’t do anything about Uefa until we sort ourselves out.

SCULLY

redspider wrote:

I dont think there are any reliable reports or observations which suggest anything like that happened - as in 1000's storming the stadium and forcing their way in. Also, storming is not the correct way to describe what happened.

Its true that gate and entrance control was poor and lax lax at many (all?) entrances, and Liverpool fans who were there on spec (and got calls from mates who had already bunked in) then bunked in and did 'runners' or whatever you want to call them. There is evidence that some gates were overwhelmed for a time and 10's or indeed 100's ran in. But no evidence of a mass storming.

I would not be surprised if reliable estimates put the number of those that entered 'illegally' (remember many thought they had bought legitimate tickets) would number 5,000 thus denying 5,000 who had legitimate tickets and were denied access by the police, but that is just an estimate. Perhaps Uefa (or indeed Liverpool) will come up with an offical estimate at some point. 5,000, if true, out of an enclosure of 17-20,000 is a large percentage.

Redspider

I agree -without official figures of how many people entered without tickets or with forged tickets its impossible to know what percentage of travelling 'fans' let the club down. As to Liverpool having the "worst fans ever" I think most would agree that this is crap - if for no other reason it is not a quantifiable thing. There is probably a bit of glee among the non-Liverpool fans at these reports as we are always hearing that they are the best fans in the world! However, putting the blame soley at the feet of UEFA for the CL final is unjust also and a proportion of fans did force their way in or robbed fellow fans. One would wonder if these fans who forced their way in would be among the ones who complain when they see football fans reading the Sun...

therecklessone

redspider wrote:

Overall, whilst Liverpool fans did exploit the situation, I dont think there would be any set of fans that wouldnt have done the same thing. The fault for me, lies with the authorities.

I believe nothing like this happened with Milan fans.

The Insider

That article is a load of tripe. Comparing a football match to an opera???? If you are going to compare the champions league final to a music event then Glastonbury would be more apt. Do people try and get in to Glastonbury without tickets every year... yes! In fact its famous for people trying to get in for free. If they employed the same measures for checking tickets at Glastonbury as they did at the champions league final you would have thousands rushing the "gates" to get in for free. Who's fault would that be? Do you think the people who rushed in would be blamed? Nope it would be the organiser's thats why they have sufficient security and crowd control measures in place before these events happen.

Here is an interesting question I am sure many people on this board will be heading down to Oxygen, if you had no ticket but decided to head down to see if you could buy one of a tout and the chance came to get in for free would you do it?

I would strongly suspect that more then 50% would. Does that make the 50% scumbags??

redspider

ciaran76 wrote:

I think this is a good article..

(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article1890310.ece?openComment=true)

20,000 people arriving with tickets and the same number arriving without but still expecting to get in, with nothing to do but drink and mill around and fume at their predicament until a combination of frustration, anger and rowdiness culminates in the scenes that we saw outside the Olympic Stadium in Athens.

I think that is a reasonable article, although I would take up a few points with the author.

For one, the 20,000 extra fans that arrive at a city where a final is taking place do NOT expect to get in as a matter of right. They try to get tickets on the black market, that's true, but their main aim is to enjoy the final in the city and watch it in bars on the telly, etc, and enjoy the atmosphere. The fans do NOT fume when they do not get tickets or get in, and not getting in is not a potential cause of trouble.

It also should be pointed out that the black market is created in the first place by Uefa's ticketing system and the handing out of tickets to corporate sponsors, and to travel organisations, etc. If tickets were mainly sold to fans and passport numbers had to be used one per individual ticket with no transfer allowed, and if it would be enforced, then there would be no black market!

He is right that unsavoury elements do turn up at football matches, when compared with opera(!), but unsavoury elements are marched out of grounds in England, Ireland, and elsewhere across the world every weekend. It is not a Liverpool-only situation.

Some unsavoury's do 'bad' things. And incidents such as stealing tickets from someone else (snatching out of a hand) are isolated, if some of them indeed are not urban myths. Its not as if it was commonplace and happened to 1000's of people. There will always be some 'bad eggs'.

The incident with the barman in Bulgaria was unsavoury, even more than unsavoury, but from what documentaries I have seen about it, whilst the perpetators were Liverpool fans, it was more an accident in a fight (not caused by the Bulgarian) and clearly not murder. However, the Bulgarian authorities and judges have acted more in terms of vengence and have accepted statements from witnesses which were unsafe at best. The chap in jail clearly didnt do it, but he looked somewhat like the guy who did and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Bulgarian authorities just wanted to get someone. I think that the guy who did it should go to Bulgaria himself and try and get the innocent chap out.

I think the comments of Phil Hammond (who has links with the Hillsboro disaster) should be taken into context. Phil is obviously very sensitive to crowd situations, and whilst it does seem reasonable to take him at his word on this, I would prefer to see an official (neutral?) report which is based on a wider set of observations before drawing any conclusions on crowd crushes, etc.

Redspider

BaZmO*

The Insider wrote:

Here is an interesting question I am sure many people on this board will be heading down to Oxygen, if you had no ticket but decided to head down to see if you could buy one of a tout and the chance came to get in for free would you do it?

I would strongly suspect that more then 50% would. Does that make the 50% scumbags??

Can't really compare the two because one is seated and the other is a field. You wouldn't exactly be taking someone's seat if you bunked into a field.

Kingp35

redspider wrote:

Overall, whilst Liverpool fans did exploit the situation, I dont think there would be any set of fans that wouldnt have done the same thing. The fault for me, lies with the authorities.

Rubbish. Why is it s hard for Liverpools fans to accept that they were also in wrong? UEFA cocked up, nobody is denying that but so did some Liverpools fans. Stop putting all the blame on the authorities, be a man and admit that Liverpool fans were also in the wrong. Both were to blame.

UEFA messed up on the ticket and general organisation, some Liverpool fans messed up by being complete tools and entering the stadium without tickets. Pretty simple really.

redspider

therecklessone wrote:

I believe nothing like this happened with Milan fans.

Milan fans werent there in the same numbers so that is clearly a factor, and we also dont know how many Milan fans got in for free at their end. Milan fans in general are no saints so if the ticket checking system was as poor, it seems likely that Milan fans may have got in too.

But I'm not excusing Liverpool fans. I know first-hand that there are rowdy elements, and away matches in Europe brings out more of them, if you ask me. Finals (and drink and sunshine) can create a euphoria and many it seems were willing and more daring to break the rules and even break laws. I am not saying they were right to do so. All I'm saying, and I think this is a common viewpoint, that with better crowd control from the authorities and a normal ticketing system/process, Liverpool fans wouldnt have had an opportunity to get in illegally, or in some cases, unknowingly with forged tickets.

Redspider

The Insider

BaZmO* wrote:

Can't really compare the two because one is seated and the other is a field. You wouldn't exactly be taking someone's seat if you bunked into a field.

So its OK to bunk in what its not seated but not OK when it is? I have never been to Oxygen but if thousands upon thousands got in for for free surely this would cause problems with crowd control/pushing/crushing etc.

The fact of the matter is you would have no chance of getting in for free into Oxygen by just walking in a group of your mates who have tickets and waving an information booklet in the air (or with fakes with that matter). You would also not even get close to the main area for getting in without a valid ticket. So you wouldn't even bother trying, the same can not be said of the Champions League final, there is no getting away from the fact that it was poorly orgainised. Does this make what the Liverpool fans did right? Of course not but UEFA have to take some of the blame, the same way MCD (or whoever orgainises Oxygen) would have to take some of the blame (or all) if people getting in for free caused crowd trouble.

Look I don't agree with what the Liverpool fans did but I suspect the number of fans who tried to get in for free was less then 2/3 % of all the Liverpool fans that where there.

Let me reword the question if anybody on boards traveled over to see there team play in the champions league final with the hope of getting a ticket off a tout and the chance to get in for free came would you take it? I would suspect the answer yes would be higher then 2/3% of all the people on this board.

BaZmO*

The Insider wrote:

So its OK to bunk in what its not seated but not OK when it is?

Listen, I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that you can't compare the two.

The Insider wrote:

I have never been to Oxygen

The Insider wrote:

You would also not even get close to the main area for getting in without a valid ticket. So you wouldn't even bother trying

And you know this for definite despite never being to Oxygen?

The Insider

BaZmO* wrote:

Listen, I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that you can't compare the two.

Of course you can, I am comparing crowd control in large events which have crowds in excess of 40,000. I am comparing the security measures taken in one compared to the other. My point being you will always have some people who will try and chance there arm to get in for free be it doesn't matter what fans there are or what event it is. Be it the champions league final, Oxygen or the local school disco. Its up to the orgainisers of the event to ensure there is adequate security measures.

For the Champions league final there was no turnstiles!!!! That's insane no matter what way you look at it. Do you think if Croker had a big gate into Hill 16 and just asked the Dub fans to hold there tickets up in the air when walking in that there would be nobody trying to get in for free?? There would be carnage I guarantee you!!

BaZmO* wrote:

And you know this for definite despite never being to Oxygen?

I haven't but I know plenty people who have who I have spoken to and who have told me about the security measures that take place, I also read every year in the paper coming up to the event about the security measures/checks being put in place to stop people getting in for free. I can change the event to a Slane concert which I have been at and which the above would apply to does that make you happy?

Savman

Really, some of you pool fans are too wound up. Liverpudlians have a reputation in England the same way Ballymun has a reputation in Dublin, some truth some garbage.
I've twice seen Everton fans get quite agressive and provoking trouble so in my own personal view I'd view scousers as headcases. Liverpool fans in Ireland really dont come under that same umberella because you are all International supporters. I well believe it wasnt the Irish pool fans causing trouble in Athens, but having experienced scousers causing trouble before at Villa Park, you bet your ass I would believe there is a fair percentage of scousers who love trouble. UEFA were dopes, true, but Liverpool fans were their own worst enemy here and it seems yiz are all trying to justify the actions of some scumbag lager lout fans that just so happen to support Liverpool. These kinda folks dont really care about press articles and they certainly don't read The Times or The Independent so I really dont see the point in getting all worked up over it.

Noone has to justify anything with silly arguments, the fact fans with tickets were refused entry says it all to me. Any half brained human being would be asking questions of UEFA's organisation and I'm sure there will be a flood of legal cases, and rightly so. But do not ignore the fact that some of your fellow fans are assholes, that doesnt make you the worst fans in the world but it will give you a reputation whether you like it or not. Feck all you can do about it.

BaZmO*

The part of your original post that I was replying to was this.....

The Insider wrote:

Here is an interesting question I am sure many people on this board will be heading down to Oxygen, if you had no ticket but decided to head down to see if you could buy one of a tout and the chance came to get in for free would you do it?

And I still stand by the point that you can't compare the two.

The reason why people are complaining about Liverpool fans bunking into a Stadium without tickets is that it's a safety issue as a Stadium can only hold so many whereas bunking into a field is totally different.

PHB

All those reports about like Liverpool fans stealing other peoples tickets, were they ever confirmed by a reputable source?

The Insider

BaZmO* wrote:

And I still stand by the point that you can't compare the two.

The reason why people are complaining about Liverpool fans bunking into a Stadium without tickets is that it's a safety issue as a Stadium can only hold so many whereas bunking into a field is totally different.

The reason I asked the question is because IMO if you would bunk into Oxygen chances are you would do the same at a football match if you had the chance. People who bunk into things normally have safety issues low down on there list of priority's. All they care about is getting into the event. Be it a stadium/field/local school they are not thinking about crowd safety when they do it.

Edit:

Have a quick read of this to see the safety issues caused by people just bunking into a 'field' and the measures put in place to stop them.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20030628/ai_n12698583

redspider

Good post there Savman.

Here is an eyewitness account:

Paul Gregory wrote:

With two friends, Paul Gregory, an architect, spent eur 3,490 on flights, accommodation and tickets. "I would like this to be reimbursed by Uefa,'' wrote Gregory in a letter sent to Platini. "It's the least you can do for putting our lives at risk. If this is not forthcoming we intend to take action against Uefa through the British judicial system, and through the European Courts if necessary. It was only through good luck that Uefa avoided deaths.

"As a former shareholder in Liverpool FC I am the recipient of three eur 140 tickets for the Champions League final. All are still unused as we were refused entry into the stadium. I was herded, tear-gassed, kicked and baton-charged by riot police outside the stadium for the hour leading up to kick-off and way beyond.

"As the organising body, Uefa has a duty of care towards its legitimate ticket-holders in just the same way as any corporate body has towards its customers. This duty of care extends to having systems in place to deny entry to the stadium to non-ticket holders. Demonstrably these systems were not in place.

"While unsavoury elements of the Liverpool fans must take responsibility for their actions, so must Uefa take responsibility for its shortcomings. Uefa appears to have planned for a genteel corporate networking event. It took its eye off the ball and forgot about a football match between two of Europe's largest and most passionately supported football clubs, despite warnings weeks ahead forged tickets were likely to be in circulation.

"Not only did thousands gain entry to the stadium with amateurish, photo-copied forgeries (some not even bothering to print the reverse side of the ticket!) but, incredibly, some fans simply walked into the stadium with no ticket at all - forged or legitimate! Others waved a stadium map and gained entry. One fan gained entry to the press box with a photo-copied press pass.''

Gregory has also written to Brian Barwick, the Football Association chief executive, and Rick Parry, Foster Gillett, Tom Hicks jnr and Rafa Benitez at Anfield, outlining in detail problems encountered before kick-off at 9.45pm local time.

"I can't even be accused of naivety as this was my sixth European Cup final and I arrived at the stadium an hour and a half before kick-off. Plenty of time to negotiate 'security', I thought.

"8.15pm: Arrived at stadium complex entrance arch. Everyone relaxed. Fans funnelled by railings into several entry points. It became apparent fairly quickly very few people were being let through. It also became apparent this was a holding operation.

"8.45: Crushing begins as fans see little progress. Panic beginning. Children lifted up and crying. Pushing from behind. Police respond by pushing back and forming an impenetrable barrier.

"9.00: I finally make it to the front. Extruded like toothpaste out of a tube into police line; 100m further on, a line of police buses with a bus-sized gap and riot police blocking it. Fans backing up here. It becomes apparent this is a similar holding operation. It looks like one or two are allowed through at a time to give the appearance of a checkpoint. Totally inadequate again. We hold up our tickets, to no avail.

"9.30: No one is getting through now. Police drive a bus in to close gap off completely. Crowd of 2,000-5,000 backing up. Panic, crushing. My feet aren't touching the ground. Kids crying. Pressure increases to dangerous levels. This prompts police to let crowd know over hand-held Tannoy that 'the stadium is full! You can't get in'. No one can believe it. The charade is over. The crowd realise they haven't been policed; they've been conned, corralled, herded and contained for the last hour. A surge from the back and now it's confrontational. The police get more vocal and counter-surge with shields, batons, helmets, visors and boots, pushing us back a few metres.

"The police fire a huge cloud of tear gas and panic ensues. Police batter their way forward. Crowd retreats, choking and eyes streaming.

"9.45: We assume the match will not kick off. Surprised to find it has.

"10.00: Some fans regroup and storm staircases to our right. Running skirmishes. Beaten back by police. Tear gas again, kickings. Some fans try to crawl under parked buses. This goes on until about 10.30. We make our way back.''

redspider

And another witness account:

I attended the final on Wednesday with my 73 year old mother, we got our tickets in the second ballot and where informed on the Sunday before the game. We were really really looking forward to day and the game and could not believe how lucky we had been.

We made our way to the stadium nearly 4 hours prior to the game starting. We came off the local train straight into rows and rows of riot police, we then encountered our first crush, joining a mass of people, all trying to get through one barrier. We stood in this constant growing mass of people for over half an hour with no forward movement and people joining the mass all the time, in a desperate attempt to get out of this crush people jumped over barriers in front of us, I do not blame them for this and in this instance they where not 'charging' the gates, they were trying to get out of a dangerous situation, at this point I saw 3 Greek policemen jump on one man and kick him as hard as they could for what seemed like minutes they where pulling their legs right back and hitting him with sickening force, I have never seen anything so sickening in my life.

This was quickly followed by policemen moving towards the mass with truncheons raised, it was at this point I grabbed my Mothers arm and dragged her as fast as I could through the crowd and out the other side, how I managed to do this in the crowd I don't know, I just knew I had to get us out of there.

Please bear in mind this was nearly 4 hours prior to the game starting, so what people where experiencing later on must have been much much worse. This is my 3rd European final, as fans we thought Istanbul was a joke with the positioning and transport situation to and from the ground and back from Istanbul to England. But at no point on that day or night did I feel scared I only cried with joy and not fear.

I have never been so scared attending a game in my life, in total we were involved in 5 crushes, 3 of which were sickeningly frightening. There were no systems in place for organising queuing, no turnstiles, no barriers to form queues. We were helped by our fellow fans in situations were the Police or Stewards should have been operating, they helped my Mother and myself, people with Children and a person next to us in a wheelchair stuck in a mass of at least 100 people being forced through one barrier with more people building from the back all the time.

UEFA should be ashamed not only for putting the final in a wholly unsuitable stadium but for trying to lay the blame totally on the fans. They must ask themselves how fans got into the stadium with no tickets or forged tickets. We know why it was and to be honest unless I had been there I would not truly have believed what I saw happening. It was appalling.

Champions League Games should be played at appropriate stadiums like Wembly, Camp Nou Stadium and the Stade de France. UEFA should not be worrying about 'giving europe' a chance they should take the lead in football and just for a change not be greedy but think about the fans, I'm not holding my breath.

growler

redspider wrote:

Overall, whilst Liverpool fans did exploit the situation, I dont think there would be any set of fans that wouldnt have done the same thing. The fault for me, lies with the authorities.

you're presuming a lot, the only fans who have behaved in this way were from liverpool.

Guy:Incognito

PHB wrote:

All those reports about like Liverpool fans stealing other peoples tickets, were they ever confirmed by a reputable source?

Not as far as I can see. I was listening to a few radio discussions during the week (not phone in type shows) and most seemed to be talking about it in a "I have no proof but will pass on the story" kind of way and referign to posts on Liverpool and other forums as evidence.

As for trouble in Athens. I left the area around the ground around 2 hours before kick off and watched it on the big screens. While there was a bit of trouble there (about 10 on each side throwing bottles and the flair) the Milan fans were throwign and fighting just like the Liverpool lads. A large section of Liverpool fans where I was standing, started going ape at the tools throwing things and at them for letting the club down etc.

Where is the figure of 20,000 ticketless fans comign from? There certainly wasnt anywhere near 20,000 at the big screens so where did they all go? There seemed to be about 3/4 the amount of Milan fans there as Liverpool so a good number of them came over ticketless too.

As for people "stormign the gates"? A few hundred at most may have ran through the gate when the chance came up but the majority of people who got in with eithe ra forged ticket or none did so quietly and with a group of people with real tickets, teying to keep a low profile. A woman in our hotel who was at the game with her family showed me 2 unused forgeries they had on the friday after, they were very good and unless you examined them in detail you wouldnt knwo the difference. I'd imagine a lot of people with fakes believed they had real tickets.

The Muppet

The Insider wrote:

So its OK to bunk in what its not seated but not OK when it is?

Thats not what he said. Music Festivals are held in a field so 5 thousand extra would not have the implications it has in confined area such as a football stadium.

I don't believe Pool fans are the worst and I have said EUFA have a lot to answer for but I'm amazed at the excuses being made here for the sizeable minority of Liverpool fans that have ruined the reputation of the club. I wonder how many of the estimated five thousand gate crashers and their apologists are active in the Justice for the 96 campaign?

EUFA made a cock up with their organisation of the event for sure but If all the Liverpool fans had behaved themselves, as Milan Fans, did there wouldn't have been the major problems there was. Stop making excuses for the inexcusable as it just reflects badly on the club.

therecklessone

The Muppet wrote:

Thats not what he said. XXXXXX is held in a field so 5 thousand extra would not have the implications it has in confined area such as a football stadium.

Firstly fellas, please bear in mind the company that promotes the festival you keep referring to and its current relationship with boards.

Secondly, your average generic music festival is limited to X number of punters for a reason, security/first aid/crowd control is based on the permitted attendance, an extra 5,000 can have very serious implications for crowd safety (ask the organisers of Roskilde if an open field was a guarantee of safety)

The Muppet

therecklessone wrote:

Firstly fellas, please bear in mind the company that promotes the festival you keep referring to and its current relationship with boards.

Secondly, your average generic music festival is limited to X number of punters for a reason, security/first aid/crowd control is based on the permitted attendance, an extra 5,000 can have very serious implications for crowd safety (ask the organisers of Roskilde if an open field was a guarantee of safety)

Firstly thanks for the heads up, I have edited the post.

The danger of a crush due to overcrowding in an open air event would be miniscule compared to an event held in a stadium with a set number of seats and solid objects (walls fences etc) to be crushed against.

therecklessone

The Muppet wrote:

The danger of a crush due to overcrowding in an open air event would be miniscule compared to an event held in a stadium with a set number of seats and solid objects (walls fences etc) to be crushed against.

Miniscule?

9 died, 30 hospitalised at Roskilde in 2000 after a crowd surge towards the front of the stage.

2 died during Guns n' Roses performance at the 1988 Monsters of Rock festival in Donington.

The common denominator with those two incidents was the fact that heavy rain caused slippy conditions under foot. Crowd dynamics don't need enclosed spaces to create danger.

Glastonbury was refused a license on a number of occasions due to the high number of fence jumpers.

[edit]this is getting seriously off-topic, I'l leave it there[/edit]

The Muppet

The Roskilde deaths were not cause by overcrowding/gatecrashing. The victims lost their footing and were trampled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roskilde_Festival

You're right, that is totally irrelevent to this discussion as are hypothetical situations at any event. Lets keep it to what actually happened.

therecklessone wrote:

Miniscule?

9 died, 30 hospitalised at Roskilde in 2000 after a crowd surge towards the front of the stage.

2 died during Guns n' Roses performance at the 1988 Monsters of Rock festival in Donington.

The common denominator with those two incidents was the fact that heavy rain caused slippy conditions under foot. Crowd dynamics don't need enclosed spaces to create danger.

Glastonbury was refused a license on a number of occasions due to the high number of fence jumpers.

[edit]this is getting seriously off-topic, I'l leave it there[/edit]

Savman

Actually I think Roskilde is very relevant to this thread, from what I read in that wiki link a large crowd surge caused people to fall over and the Athens witness report in this thread mentions crowds being held in large groups at points up to the stadium. How a massive organisation like UEFA could be so poorly prepared, knowing full well the consequences, is baffling. It's nothing short of negligence, but no doubt they'll pass the buck to Athens and its police force. Still though, pool fans who remember Hillsborough should have known better.

I have to say, having been to a couple of different stadiums in England, the English have really led the way in this field. If you have no ticket, they will laugh at ye. If ye are lookin for a fisticuffs you'll be dragged into a van by a coupla 6 foot coppers.

The first problem UEFA made, IMHO, was holding such a huge game in such a badly equipped location. I agree with whoever said big games should be reserved for the very best stadiums, in the right country with the proper policing.

Mitch Connor

growler wrote:

you're presuming a lot, the only fans who have behaved in this way were from liverpool.

The problems in the Lille vs Man United match were caused, in part, by ticketless fans, and fans for tickets in the home sections trying to get in to the away section - the situation was clearly not helped by crappy policing, but to say only liverpool fans behave in this way is incorrect. United fans are among the 'best' at getting in to matches (according to man united match going mates)